Eurofighter Typhoon

Arjen said:
Scalp / Storm Shadow on UK Typhoons rings a bell?
I believe this has been covered before.
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...stem-fcas-scaf-fsac.29201/page-50#post-825535
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There's no contradiction.
It's undeniable eurofighter is a multirole fighter, and it certainly fulfills a basic standard.
But it's just everywhere.

Tornado can carry upto 4 LACM; Eurofighter - 2.
Same two pylons will take ARMs in new Eurofighter EK; surely more could be done?
But what Germans are getting isn't just last ever dedicated wild weasel (long 1960s), they're getting a rather mediocre one. Not electronically, but in hard numbers.

Almost any modern fighter has a separate convenient station for TGP, or at least can use side pylon(Hornets). Only Eurofighter can't.

Even UK "specialty", Brimstones, are unlocked for only two pylons. Not like more is absolutely burning necessary, but Tornado and Harrier brought way more.

And overall, Typhoon is an aircraft larger than Rafale, but with strike capabilities equal to Gripen C/D. Gripen E/F and Mirage 2000D actually end up higher...
 
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It is not sensible to measure military capability solely by what weapon configurations are currently integrated onto an aircraft.

As a comparison, then Saab has long claimed and shown lots of different weapon types that were "integrated" with Gripen. e.g. Taurus cruise missile "integration" dates from the late 90s and yet it was only in August 2026 that it did the first test firing...

Should we say that Typhoon is much better for anti-drone defence because APKWS is currently integrated onto it and it isn't for Gripen and Rafale? It doesn't mean that it can't or won't be in the future, but simply that those countries have not prioritised it.
 
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red admiral said:
Should we say that Typhoon is much better for anti-drone defence because APKWS is currently integrated onto it and it isn't for Gripen and Rafale?
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Yes, absolutely. With caveat that Rafale is not too far behind, but yes.
And even that small delay likely costed France around 1/3 of their non-rocket missile stock recently.
 
Ainen said:
that small delay likely costed France around 1/3 of their non-rocket missile stock recently.
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Very secretive data ! Where do you find it please?
The MICA french deliveries are 1110. 240 were fired in trainings? Remain 870. That means nearly 300 were fired to counter Shahed ? Big big doubt.
 
BonPlan2 said:
So a very late second.
We also may say that Tornado GR was studied with AG first and AA second.... thanks to its Sidewinder... ;)
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MRCA was in fact supposed to offer stronger AA capabilities, before the British came in and drag the requirement towards an AG orientated platform.

Typhoon was specified as multirole, with priority given to AA performance and an early introduction with AA only, with AG following up. It wasn't an afterthought at all. It was planned this way for a reason already discussed before and not just once.[/QUOTE]
 
BonPlan2 said:
Very secretive data ! Where do you find it please?
The MICA french deliveries are 1110. 240 were fired in trainings? Remain 870. That means nearly 300 were fired to counter Shahed ? Big big doubt.
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Ukraine? And yes, expenditure in the gulf was quoted as "hundreds".
I frankly sometimes wonder if people actually check the news. Shaheds flew in hundreds per night, and each and every one has to be brought down.
UK really avoided a bullet here with their rushed integration.
 
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Ainen said:
Going through your post, it's hard to see the situation this way.
It may have been "well meant" to be multirole (as F-15 was too, and F-15 was built with a configuration very adaptable to A2G use; it wasn't just a lucky byproduct), but all of it is "possible", "option" and "proposed in 2000s". Furthermore, almost no design features in Eurofighter show a particular care for being multirole.

If something is designed to be, say, multirole, those design paths are actually taken, not just conjured. Absolutely any fighter can be made into a striker, if a sufficient number of proposed options is acted upon(and frankly this was the case since ww1).
But since the design choices were made against it, and to this day almost no options to turn Eurofighter into a better striker were actually taken. Even the ones which were/are being taken(TGP, Brimstone, ARM integration) are being done to the absolute minimum, never matching the Tornado.
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It's important to distinguish between original design intend/specification and what's actually an afterthought. I think I have sufficiently outlined this in my post!

That the Typhoon ended up replacing the Tornado IDS in RAF service and partially GAF service is a different story owed to the circumstances, which weren't foreseen back when the aircraft was specified and its design frozen. As I have outlined the aircraft wasn't conceived as a Tornado successor, it was a Jaguar successor in RAF service and an F-4F and Mirage F1E successor in GAF and SAF service. Both F-4F and Mirage F1E were employed as dual-/multi-role platforms and the Eurofighter was required to replace their capabilities in this respect, not that of the Tornado IDS.

You don't need 13 hardpoints for AA only, the inboard wing pylons are exclusively used for AG weapons carriage. The scope of DASS, PIRATE FLIR, TRN (TERPROM/GPWS), MMD and a large varity of AG radar modes are a testimony of the aircraft's multirole design approach which was centred around uncompromised AA performance, with AG mission requirements being sub-ordinated in terms of design choices and operational priorities. The post-Cold War environment shifted operational needs and priorities, but at that point in time it was too late for major design alterations to reflect that. I never argued, or implied that the Typhoon is particularly well versed for the greater strike focus and overseas operations with longer range requirements.

Edit:
Concerning your F-15 remark, it's actually not true the way you state it. The F-15s AG capabilities were mandated due to reservations against single mission only, but AG capabilities of the F-15 would have been poor. The A/B models had no CFTs whatsoever and would have had to trade tanks for weapons, even more so than the Typhoon! Even the FAST packs of the C/D models weren't designed to hold weapons. It's in fact more coincidence that due to the mounting position of the CFTs on the F-15 the opportunity emerged to attach racks to it. Without that the F-15 could have never evolved into the strike platform that the F-15E is. The pod stations for LANTIRN were also an afterthought designed into the F-15E.
 
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But Typhoon could reasonably be expected to fly in with 2x ASRAAM, 4x AMRAAM/Meteor, and 4x Brimstone + 4x Paveway IVs/JDAMs, right?
 
Ainen said:
Ukraine? And yes, expenditure in the gulf was quoted as "hundreds".
I frankly sometimes wonder if people actually check the news. Shaheds flew in hundreds per night, and each and every one has to be brought down.
UK really avoided a bullet here with their rushed integration.
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I forgot Ukraine.
You're right.
 
Scott Kenny said:
But Typhoon could reasonably be expected to fly in with 2x ASRAAM, 4x AMRAAM/Meteor, and 4x Brimstone + 4x Paveway IVs/JDAMs, right?
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Probably. With what kind of range ? This is one problem.
The other is that the platform & FBW seem in difficulties with heavy loads release at low speed.
 
Scott Kenny said:
But Typhoon could reasonably be expected to fly in with 2x ASRAAM, 4x AMRAAM/Meteor, and 4x Brimstone + 4x Paveway IVs/JDAMs, right?
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Technically only if Brimstone tripple launchers would be cleared for additional stations and dual-racks for two 500 lb Paveway IV / GBU-38/54. In such a case there wouldn't be any drop tanks and at the moment, with current clearances 2 x Brimstone tripple launcher and 4 x Paveway IV is possible, though in practise it is Brimstone tripple launchers outboard, tanks centre and 2 x PW IV inboard, plus TGP centre and the AA loadout of 2 x SRAAM and 4 x L/MRAAM.
 
BonPlan2 said:
Probably. With what kind of range ? This is one problem.
The other is that the platform & FBW seem in difficulties with heavy loads release at low speed.
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FBW isn't the problem here, it's more about the aeromechanical aspect, hence the hype about AMK for better AG weapons flexibility. The FBW can only do as good as aerodynamics allow for in the first place.
 
Scott Kenny said:
But Typhoon could reasonably be expected to fly in with 2x ASRAAM, 4x AMRAAM/Meteor, and 4x Brimstone + 4x Paveway IVs/JDAMs, right?
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Strange payload to be sure, but yes, it's possible.
Scorpion82 said:
Technically only if Brimstone tripple launchers would be cleared for additional stations and dual-racks for two 500 lb Paveway IV / GBU-38/54
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I think it's fittable as is, though only with central tank.
red admiral said:
NB this is more weapons than UK Tornados spent almost all of their time flying with from 2000-2020 ish.
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Heavier payloads(than phoon limitations) are needed all the time in real time operations.
What typhoon does very well is bringing lots of meteors with minimal drag(for the type) on top... assuming you need it, it's a very weird combination.
 
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BonPlan2 said:
So a very late second.
We also may say that Tornado GR was studied with AG first and AA second.... thanks to its Sidewinder... ;)
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So can we lay this notion to rest?
It seems that, because of its unpalatability to some - for whatever reasons, Typhoon's multi-role character needs people being reminded of every few months or so.
It might not be the 'multiest' (excuse my violating of the English language) of multi-role aircraft, but, in my view, no slouch at it.
The RAF has the aircraft on the books as Typhoon FGR4, Fighter Ground attack Reconnaissance. If that does not spell multi-role to somebody, I suggest to that somebody to grab a dictionary.
From wiki's entry on one of Germany's Eurofighter wings:
Taktisches Luftwaffengeschwader 31 "Boelcke" (Tactical Air Force Wing 31; abbreviated as TaktLwG 31 "B"), formerly known as Jagdbombergeschwader 31 (Fighter-Bomber Wing 31; abbreviated as: JaBoG 31), is a fighter-bomber wing of the German Air Force (Luftwaffe). The wing is based in west Germany at Nörvenich Air Base. Its role are Air Interdiction, Offensive Counter Air and Close Air Support. The wing flies the Eurofighter Typhoon.
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I will spell that out.
- Air Interdiction
- Offensive Counter Air
- Close Air Support
Multi. Role.
My apologies for joining this dance.
 
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Arjen said:
It might not be the 'multiest' (excuse my violating of the English language) of multi-role aircraft, but, in my view, no slouch at it.
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It fits the most basic standard (which pretty much requires TGP, stand-in bomb and some stand off missile) to a light fighter level, and that's it more or less.
This is not a low standard per se (it's most of what's necessary), but it brings around surprisingly little when compared to the competition - even among the other eurocanards. Which are smaller.

It is around J-10C in carrying capacity (another a2a specialist), but Chinese fighter has a much better panoply of integrated weapons, and comes for 1/3 the price.
 
Arjen said:
So can we lay this notion to rest?
It seems that, because of its unpalatability to some - for whatever reasons, Typhoon's multi-role character needs people being reminded of every few months or so.
It might not be the 'multiest' (excuse my violating of the English language) of multi-role aircraft, but, in my view, no slouch at it.
The RAF has the aircraft on the books as Typhoon FGR4, Fighter Ground attack Reconnaissance. If that does not spell multi-role to somebody, I suggest to that somebody to grab a dictionary.
From wiki's entry on one of Germany's Eurofighter wings:

I will spell that out.
- Air Interdiction
- Offensive Counter Air
- Close Air Support
Multi. Role.
My apologies for joining this dance.
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Those 1990s marketing fules shoulda called it "Euromudmovergunstraferlaserstrikebomberfighter".
 
Ainen said:
This is not a low standard per se (it's most of what's necessary), but it brings around surprisingly little when compared to the competition - even among the other eurocanards
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Really???

Some evidence please....

Could you give us a comparison of the actual, cleared and operational weapons and sensors that are available for all 3? The REAL ones...not the marketing (looking at you Saab/Gripen)....

Because if you did it honestly....you'd find that Typhoon does rather well...
 
timmymagic said:
Could you give us a comparison of the actual, cleared and operational weapons and sensors that are available for all 3? The REAL ones
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We can, and it won't be very flattering to Typhoons. Even with the caveat that you did indeed choose an unfair matchup to touch Gripen E as is, as it is shining new, and won't reach ground strike IOC for a while.
Usual metrics: CAS, stand-in, tactical, penetrative strike, anti-ship, plus recce and ew pods.

CategoryGripen C (Swedish AF)Gripen E (Swedish AF)Typhoon (RAF)Typhoon (Luftwaffe)
CAS (AT / point-target missiles)Rb 75 (still in stocks).Same as C, but far from A2G IOC)Brimstone 2;
APKWS for now A2A only.		Brimstone being deployed (not a long-standing deployed stock).
Stand-in (JDAM-class / non-gliding bombs)GBU-12 / GBU-49 (main PGM);
JDAM GBU-31/32/38 (integrated /interoperable, not in stocks)		Same as abovePaveway IV. Older Paveway II still in stock.
*GBU-24 should be interoperable, but couldn't find photos.		GBU-48;
GBU-54 IOC 2028.
Paveway IV. Older Paveway II still in stock.
*GBU-24 should be interoperable.
Tactical stand-off (glide bombs / similar-range missiles)GBU-39 SDB ISame as C, but far from A2G IOC)
-​
-; Spice 250 considered for Arexis-equipped EK.
Penetrative strike (LACM)Taurus KEPD 350 launched, no stock yet. Planned IOC ~2028 with MS20 Block 3/4.
RBS-15 mk.4 can be used v land targets, but not operational yet.		2030s(KEPD 350)Storm ShadowTaurus KEPD 350 IOC put late decade; currently it's a Tornado weapon.
Anti-shipRBS-15F. Mk. 4 is not in service yet.2030s(Mk4)
-​
-​
ARM
-​
-​
-​
Eurofighter-EK with Arexis will have AGM-88 integrated ca. 2029.
Recce pods (specialist)SPK 39 (Terma MRPS), RecceLite
?​
-​
Speaking of FGR, by the way		RecceLite in theory (in practice those are Tornado pods)
EW pods (escort)
-​
Arexis EAJP (2 of them) IOC 2027
-​
-​

As you can see, lots of nothings in the right part of the table.
 
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Long story cut short, a lot of maybe some day on the Gripen... Gripen doesn't look any better than Typhoon atm. Yes it has SDB integrated, but JDAM? I haven't found any evidence for this. Half of the weapons/stores aren't integrated/cleared yet! The question was about what's currently integrated...

And yes you listed some yet to come weapons for Typhoon as well, but in the end you failed to answer the question. Not talking about the inaccuracies.

integrated on Typhoon

GPB
Mk82/83/84, 1000lb FFG

LGB
UK PWII, GBU-10, GBU-16

INS/GPS
GBU-31v1/3

Dual-mode
EPW II, GBU-48, PW IV

AGM
Brimstone II

SOM
Storm Shadow

LGR
APKWS II (AA & AG)

RECCE
RECCELITE II and Litening 3/5

Ofcourse these are all weapons for all customers and not all of them are using them.

RECCELITE II is operational on ITAF and GAF Typhoons for many years. The RAF uses Litening with removable memory module for recce purposes.

APKWS II has in fact first been tested against ground targets, main development task was enabling AA firing of the laser and this has been accomplished as well with successful end to end test.
 
zen said:
Typhoon has always had Air-to-ground capability, because it's origins was to succeed the Jaguar.
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in UK the jag replacement role was taken by Tornado (a very potent air to ground platform).
and what about Spain, Germany, Italy that didn't have Jaguar....
 
Ainen said:
We can, and it won't be very flattering to Typhoons. Even with the caveat that you did indeed choose an unfair matchup to touch Gripen E as is, as it is shining new, and won't reach ground strike IOC for a while.
Usual metrics: CAS, stand-in, tactical, penetrative strike, anti-ship, plus recce and ew pods.

CategoryGripen C (Swedish AF)Gripen E (Swedish AF)Typhoon (RAF)Typhoon (Luftwaffe)
CAS (AT / point-target missiles)Rb 75 (still in stocks).Same as C, but far from A2G IOC)Brimstone 2;
APKWS for now A2A only.		Brimstone being deployed (not a long-standing deployed stock).
Stand-in (JDAM-class / non-gliding bombs)GBU-12 / GBU-49 (main PGM);
JDAM GBU-31/32/38 (integrated /interoperable, not in stocks)		Same as abovePaveway IV. Older Paveway II still in stock.
*GBU-24 should be interoperable, but couldn't find photos.		GBU-48;
GBU-54 IOC 2028.
Paveway IV. Older Paveway II still in stock.
*GBU-24 should be interoperable.
Tactical stand-off (glide bombs / similar-range missiles)GBU-39 SDB ISame as C, but far from A2G IOC)
-​
-; Spice 250 considered for Arexis-equipped EK.
Penetrative strike (LACM)Taurus KEPD 350 launched, no stock yet. Planned IOC ~2028 with MS20 Block 3/4.
RBS-15 mk.4 can be used v land targets, but not operational yet.		2030s(KEPD 350)Storm ShadowTaurus KEPD 350 IOC put late decade; currently it's a Tornado weapon.
Anti-shipRBS-15F. Mk. 4 is not in service yet.2030s(Mk4)
-​
-​
ARM
-​
-​
-​
Eurofighter-EK with Arexis will have AGM-88 integrated ca. 2029.
Recce pods (specialist)SPK 39 (Terma MRPS), RecceLite
?​
-​
Speaking of FGR, by the way		RecceLite in theory (in practice those are Tornado pods)
EW pods (escort)
-​
Arexis EAJP (2 of them) IOC 2027
-​
-​

As you can see, lots of nothings in the right part of the table.
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"strike mission of EF is rated from low to good "
source : Swiss eval.
 

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BonPlan2 said:
in UK the jag replacement role was taken by Tornado (a very potent air to ground platform).
and what about Spain, Germany, Italy that didn't have Jaguar....
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The Jaguar was always planned to be replaced with Eurofighter, not with Tornado.

Had you followed the discussion, that you participated in yourself, you would have noticed that the Eurofighter was meant to succeed the F-4F in German and Mirage F1E in Spanish service, which were both operated as multirole platforms.
 

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