Development of the Italian Comandanti Medaglie d'Oro-class destroyers

[ptdockyard]

I have quite a bit of information on this design but a couple sources imply that early on there was consideration of using at least one twin turret for the 135mm guns. Can anyone verify if this was true and, if so, what was the intended arrangement of the guns?

Thanks,
Dave G

 

[mircomazzetti]

Never read anything about this. Anyway, the twin 135 turret exist: is that of the Capitani Romani class.

 

[YourChair]

I have quite a bit of information on this design but a couple sources imply that early on there was consideration of using at least one twin turret for the 135mm guns. Can anyone verify if this was true and, if so, what was the intended arrangement of the guns?

Thanks,
Dave G

Necropost to say that the original layout was indeed intended to be the same as the Soldatis:


The arrangement would be the same as Carabinere's below:

 

[ptdockyard]

Thank you!

Where is this text from?

Dave

 

[YourChair]

Thank you!

Where is this text from?

Dave

I took it from Lesta Wiki (https://wiki.lesta.ru/ru/Navy:Эскадренные_миноносцы_типа_Comandanti_Medaglie_d`Oro)

Their sources for that page are pretty good:

 

[Phoenix_jz]

It would be interesting to know which source specifically stated it - it would have to be one of the two Russian sources, because Bagnasco's article published in INRO does not mention this. Unfortunately the Lesta wiki pages tend to only include a list of references rather than any proper citations. This is not the first Russian source I have seen that has described it, but absent citation in the other case.

I do have to say, I find the information somewhat suspect both because I both have not seen this described in any Italian sources, and because the RM was moving towards single mounts (or turrets) for some time. The Program 1939 destroyers, for example, called for five single 120mm DP mounts, and they had installed their first prototype 120/50 SP mount from Ansaldo on destroyer Carabinere in 1939. Production models started being installed on other Soldati in mid-1941, around the same time the design for the Type 2100 destroyer (initial name for the Comandanti-class) was initiated.

As far as Bagnasco wrote in the aforementioned INRO article, the initial drawings for the class established the armament of 5x1 135/45, until the amidships gun was suppressed in mid-1942 on the 1a serie ships.

With that said, the twin mount is not impossible by any means, though I think the mention in the above text of the Capitani Romani's turrets is a red herring. The Comandanti were going to be larger than the Soldati, but not that much larger - only about 250-300 tons. To try and replace the twin turrets with turrets of twice the mass of the 120/50 twin mounts of the Soldati-class (42t vs 21.6-22.8t) that already take armor to the bare minimum is... well, it's something I'm doubtful of without seeing the original reference.

What seems more likely to me as an option is some of the lighter common cradle turret designs that were kicking around in the late 1930s. I don't have access to any OTO materials, but Ansaldo was exploring twin turrets and mounts (and single mounts) for the 135/45 circa 1938, with the latter being based on the 120/50 mounts. The twin mount in particular - the one that would be useable on destroyers - was estimated to come in at 29 tonnes, but was never built so the actual number might not be the same. It was also a common cradle mount, which is distinctly not ideal.

 

[YourChair]

Unfortunately the Lesta wiki pages tend to only include a list of references rather than any proper citations. This is not the first Russian source I have seen that has described it, but absent citation in the other case.

Citations? Unknown technology blyat.

To try and replace the twin turrets with turrets of twice the mass of the 120/50 twin mounts of the Soldati-class (42t vs 21.6-22.8t) that already take armor to the bare minimum is... well, it's something I'm doubtful of without seeing the original reference.

In fact, that is the exact reason that was given by the page for the abandonment of these plans -- practically verbatim, in fact.
So perhaps it was considered so fantastical and outlandish that it was dismissed right from the outset -- just like the German "Atlantik Bomber Kreuzers" made of aluminum and carrying triple 203mm -- and therefore not worth wasting space on.

 

[Phoenix_jz]

In fact, that is the exact reason that was given by the page for the abandonment of these plans -- practically verbatim, in fact.
So perhaps it was considered so fantastical and outlandish that it was dismissed right from the outset -- just like the German "Atlantik Bomber Kreuzers" made of aluminum and carrying triple 203mm -- and therefore not worth wasting space on.

I suspect the case is that either the source is mistaken as to the obscurity of the design, or the person copying it onto the Lesta Wiki misunderstood whatever the original source was saying.

As I mentioned in the post above - it makes little sense that they would have considered a full turret for a destroyer design the size of the CMdO's, just given the collective mass of those turrets, and the fact that they were full base ring mounts with considerable below-decks footprint. The Marina Militare would eventually do something like that on this hull form - but that was on the Indomito-class with 5"/38 Mk.38 turrets (43.4t), which was still over 600 tonnes greater displacement (standard), seven meters longer, and had a meter in beam over the CMdO's.

What I suspect is actually the case is that the designers may have briefly considered a common cradle twin mount based on the 120/50 twin mounts, reflecting the design studies Ansaldo had already done before the war. The Russian authors may have either reported this as such, and whoever copied it to the Lesta Wiki just assumed they were the turrets from the Capitani - or the original Russian authors simply read about twin mounts and assumed that they were the twin turrets used by the Capitani, never realizing that there were multiple mounts designed. It would not be surprising given the general obscurity of Italian designs that didn't make it to at least prototype stage (and even many of them) compared to, say, many Soviet or German designs that only ever existed on paper.

Heck, even setting aside the twin mount, Ansaldo designed two different two-gun 135/45 turrets that aren't the Model 1938 turret actually used on the Capitani Romani-class. And who knows what is hiding out in OTO's archives...

 

[mirco1961]

These are the 'capitani romani': only single turrets, There were never any plans for the twin turret on board.