Cold Warriors: The Essex Class in the Cold War

Errr J65 is a licensed Sapphire.
Modified by Curtiss-Wright, with a supply chain coming from the United States. Armstrong would not be able to supply the J65 specific parts.

I would also imagine a Sapphire ASSa.7 would need new mounting hardware for American planes, and additional cooling capacity to match its higher thrust output?
 
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I like the idea of an F-11 in almost any application... but if we are talking about a scenario where speed is a major part of the equation then we have to ignore a whole lot of the fun options initially.. they can come in a bit later in the game though.

If the Dutch did their naval carrier training with the US then we have to go with F9F-8 Cougars. Transition time for the type would be minimal since they had already essentially flown them in training. IF NOT trained by the US then we have to go with the updated Seahawk, about the only available upgrades to the air group that can be deployed NOW, NOW! The cougar also folds up smaller under 15 feet as opposed to the 27.5 for most of the other American types under discussion.

Longer term? Converting existing Tiger's to something like SuperTigers in the Netherlands would be a good option especially if Grumman lets them know you can chop the wing and fold her up to about 10 feet. Depending on how ambitious the Dutch want to be and how much sweat they want to expend in the conversions they can take up the same space as their existing Seahawks.

Another decent option would be re-engine the F9F-8 with a J-52: SFC goes from 1.14 with the stock engine to .79 with the new with greater thrust. Though it will weigh 2-300 pounds more. The flexibility of being able to play with fuel load without really losing any range over the base model could come in handy not just to offset the weight of the heavier engine. She won't be as fast as the ST but she had a higher G limit and could probably out turn her.

I mainly mention this last one as an example of thinking outside the box
 
Though it will weigh 2-300 pounds more.
At least according to this site, the J52-P-6 that flew on the A2F-1/A-6A put out 8500 lb.f of thrust and only weighed 2056 pounds vs 2080 pounds on the J48-P-8...
The source I saw was for a different model(EDIT it was the 408) and listed the weight as 2308 or so.. but it was also putting out 11,000 pounds of thrust.. Glad to use this one instead. Still better SFC and thrust than the regular.
 
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Remind me again why the Dutch F-84Fs aren't also in the picture here? We have Hunters on their way but the Thunderstreaks would also provide a useful complement for non-carrier based platforms:

p-238_f-84f_315-sqn_rnlaf.jpg


Moreover, when one applies some range circles and includes the possible use of the following airbases (mostly allied but quite conceivable): RAAF Darwin, RAF Singapore, Kuala Lumpur & Butterworth + possibly Christmas Island, Dili & Labuan you get the following:

For Hunters (I forgot Christmas Island on this one):

Image 1-1-22 at 8.10 am.jpeg

For F-84Fs:

Image 1-1-22 at 8.26 am.jpeg
 
Remind me again why the Dutch F-84Fs aren't also in the picture here? We have Hunters on their way but the Thunderstreaks would also provide a useful complement for non-carrier based platforms:

p-238_f-84f_315-sqn_rnlaf.jpg


Moreover, when one applies some range circles and includes the possible use of the following airbases (mostly allied but quite conceivable): RAAF Darwin, RAF Singapore, Kuala Lumpur & Butterworth + possibly Christmas Island, Dili & Labuan you get the following:

For Hunters (I forgot Christmas Island on this one):

View attachment 670713

For F-84Fs:

View attachment 670714
Mainly because they don't have an easy way to get them there. There is also the logistics issue to consider. The British have Hunters already in theater, so if the Dutch really need spare parts, or even spare aircraft, the British with their logistics stream, are right there. Whereas the US doesn't have any F-84s in theater, but they do have them in Europe, along with a pretty damn good logistics tail there

Plus, despite the political desire to keep West New Guinea part of the Netherlands, the bigger threat is the USSR.
 
Fair enough...it just gives the Dutch another option already in service rather than trying to generate other what if scenarios with new platforms altogether.
 
Remind me again why the Dutch F-84Fs aren't also in the picture here?
...
Plus, despite the political desire to keep West New Guinea part of the Netherlands, the bigger threat is the USSR.

To this point, many of the Dutch -84F's are assigned to Allied Command Europe as part of the AMF. So they are bouncing all over Europe (mostly Scandinavia, in practice) doing their best to provide a credible NATO quick reaction force as a deterrent.
 
found some validation for some of my musings doing some research on the Cougar... Grumman did make a pitch for an improved version of the trainer with a J-52 in the mid '60s, and I found a post from 2008 on this forum about Grumman 110 projects (thanks to the side bar thingy that recommends threads), that had a really interesting image of the 98L Tiger with notes in the margins about the F-11F that indicates that they did, or were thinking OF increasing the wingspan and therefore wing area, but they do list it as 300 sq.ft.

Cool to know that I am not completely off base in some of my thinking, and it was not totally original... that I find somewhat comforting oddly.

EDIT: Will add a link to the thread. https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/grumman-design-110-study.5545/
 
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Remind me again why the Dutch F-84Fs aren't also in the picture here? We have Hunters on their way but the Thunderstreaks would also provide a useful complement for non-carrier based platforms:

p-238_f-84f_315-sqn_rnlaf.jpg


Moreover, when one applies some range circles and includes the possible use of the following airbases (mostly allied but quite conceivable): RAAF Darwin, RAF Singapore, Kuala Lumpur & Butterworth + possibly Christmas Island, Dili & Labuan you get the following:

For Hunters (I forgot Christmas Island on this one):

View attachment 670713

For F-84Fs:

View attachment 670714
Mainly because they don't have an easy way to get them there. There is also the logistics issue to consider. The British have Hunters already in theater, so if the Dutch really need spare parts, or even spare aircraft, the British with their logistics stream, are right there. Whereas the US doesn't have any F-84s in theater, but they do have them in Europe, along with a pretty damn good logistics tail there

Plus, despite the political desire to keep West New Guinea part of the Netherlands, the bigger threat is the USSR.
Could they not be dismantled and put aboard a cargo ship.
 
Could they not be dismantled and put aboard a cargo ship.
I think what they're trying to say is that the F-84s are allocated to SHAPE/SACEUR control and cannot be pulled away for essentially a colonial policing mission.
@lordroel Sure, they could. But it would take months, at a minimum to get them knocked down, loaded onto a slow cargo ship, sent to Holandia, reassembled, tested, then the squadron stood back up. Even getting the Hunters into the theater is going to take a solid month. And @isayyo2 is correct. Those airframes are assigned to NATO missions. Pulling them out of Europe to try and fight their former colony would not go over well with their Allies.
 
I do wonder if a naval version of the Folland Gnat (possibly the twin-engined Mk. 5) or a navalised version of the Folland Light bomber proposed for the requirement which led to the TSR-2 could be pursued here. If I have understood correctly, these could be operated by the 1942 design light fleet carriers. Of course, a quick and dirty, albeit subsonic, solution would be a navalised Gnat Mk. 1.
 
I do wonder if a naval version of the Folland Gnat (possibly the twin-engined Mk. 5) or a navalised version of the Folland Light bomber proposed for the requirement which led to the TSR-2 could be pursued here. If I have understood correctly, these could be operated by the 1942 design light fleet carriers. Of course, a quick and dirty, albeit subsonic, solution would be a navalised Gnat Mk. 1.
Except you still hit the issue of trying to introduce a new type when what you need is a here and now solution.
 
I vaguely remember F-84F were maintenance hogs, if not pigs. Better to go for Hunters.
Note that France played hardball with its F-84F during the Suze crisis of 1956: they were sent to Israel and even got IDF/AF markings (from memory).
 
I do wonder if a naval version of the Folland Gnat (possibly the twin-engined Mk. 5) or a navalised version of the Folland Light bomber proposed for the requirement which led to the TSR-2 could be pursued here. If I have understood correctly, these could be operated by the 1942 design light fleet carriers. Of course, a quick and dirty, albeit subsonic, solution would be a navalised Gnat Mk. 1.
It's certainly possible. But it would be obsolete before it even entered service. The way forward was supersonic aircraft for fighters and fleet air defense, with transonic types being phased out. You also have a plethora of types for both the fighter and attack missions being designed, built and sold by the United States, which is just economically a better option for 99% of countries
 
I do wonder if a naval version of the Folland Gnat (possibly the twin-engined Mk. 5) or a navalised version of the Folland Light bomber proposed for the requirement which led to the TSR-2 could be pursued here. If I have understood correctly, these could be operated by the 1942 design light fleet carriers. Of course, a quick and dirty, albeit subsonic, solution would be a navalised Gnat Mk. 1.
It's certainly possible. But it would be obsolete before it even entered service. The way forward was supersonic aircraft for fighters and fleet air defense, with transonic types being phased out. You also have a plethora of types for both the fighter and attack missions being designed, built and sold by the United States, which is just economically a better option for 99% of countries
All of the proposed Gnat fighter models from Mk. 2 onwards would have been capable of supersonic speeds, though even the twin-engined Mk. 5 would not likely have been capable of much more than Mach 1.5. However, in stark contrast to nearly all of the naval fighters under development in the late 1950's and early 1960's, the Gnat would have been lightweight and able to be operated and carried in non-trivial numbers even by light aircraft carriers. Of course, all the Gnat variants would have been rather short-legged and with quite low payloads.
 
all the Gnat variants would have been rather short-legged and with quite low payloads.
Which is a big issue for a carrier.
Looks like my Cougar recommend is a no go. The Dutch did their training in house after building up a cadre with the RN. So surging them Cougars would require to much work up time.

Might be worth doing depending on how long things are anticipated to go.. you can go three across in Doorman's hangar with them opposed to 1.89 across for the FJ and A4
 
Could they not be dismantled and put aboard a cargo ship.
I think what they're trying to say is that the F-84s are allocated to SHAPE/SACEUR control and cannot be pulled away for essentially a colonial policing mission.

Could they not be dismantled and put aboard a cargo ship.
I think what they're trying to say is that the F-84s are allocated to SHAPE/SACEUR control and cannot be pulled away for essentially a colonial policing mission.
@lordroel Sure, they could. But it would take months, at a minimum to get them knocked down, loaded onto a slow cargo ship, sent to Holandia, reassembled, tested, then the squadron stood back up. Even getting the Hunters into the theater is going to take a solid month. And @isayyo2 is correct. Those airframes are assigned to NATO missions. Pulling them out of Europe to try and fight their former colony would not go over well with their Allies.
By now it is looking more like a war between countries than a colony war as most likely more sides are drawn into this conflict.
 
Always been a fan of the P.1081 as it could have conceivably have been adopted instead of latter Seahawk models. Probably a non starter due to the assumption the Super Priority Scimitar and Sea Vixen would soon be in service. The obvious follow on to the P.1081 is a fully navalised Hunter.

Fuselage stretch forward of the wing for extra fuel, radar nose and Firestreak and / or Sidewinder.

I have been collecting Revell Hunters and Freightdog bits and pieces for a while to do some RAN FAA Hunters, now for the first time in over a decade I have a hobby room so it may happen.
 
P.1081 navalised is P.1087 with reheat.
Arguably one of the planes that ought to have been ordered instead of the hooked Swift.
 
P.1081 navalised is P.1087 with reheat.
Arguably one of the planes that ought to have been ordered instead of the hooked Swift.
I have the wings, the radar nose and the Firestreaks ready to go, just need to determine the wing fold, arrester hook and catapult strop points,
 
I do wonder if a naval version of the Folland Gnat (possibly the twin-engined Mk. 5) or a navalised version of the Folland Light bomber proposed for the requirement which led to the TSR-2 could be pursued here. If I have understood correctly, these could be operated by the 1942 design light fleet carriers. Of course, a quick and dirty, albeit subsonic, solution would be a navalised Gnat Mk. 1.
I would think they’d need a lot of work on the undercarriage, with knock-on effects to the fuselage, and then there’s the tail hook work on top of that. Too much work for an asset that‘s needed fast.
 
February 18, 1959
Vladivostok, Russia, USSR


The fleet made a fine sight as it steamed out of the main Pacific base of the Soviet Navy. Three destroyers came out first, with every one of them blasting the depths with active sonar to drive off any lurking American or British submarines. After them came the cruisers. While a gun cruiser was no match for a carrier in a straight up fight, the force steaming out to sea was more than enough to make the American and British navies sit up and pay attention.

Admiral Fokin had decided that he would command this force himself. His orders from Moscow were clear: conduct anti-surface and shore bombardment exercises in the East and South China Seas, draw the attention of the American and British carrier forces in the area with actions that may be deemed threatening, but above all, do not start a war. His political masters may like having the little yellow bastards in Indonesia dance to their tune, but they were not willing to go to war for them. He wondered in the Americans would know that and if they would take his little demonstration seriously? He would find out soon enough.
 
February 19, 1959
Yokosuka, Kanagawa Prefecture, Japan


Alarm bells were ringing in offices all across the base and on every ship in the harbor. The Soviets were sending a major fleet to sea from Vladivostok. A report had been radioed in by a Martin P5M Marlin conducting a routine patrol over the Sea of Japan. While the Soviets putting to sea would not normally be cause for extreme alarm, this situation was somewhat different.

The Soviets were sending almost their entire Pacific Fleet to sea. Nearly every major surface combatant that they had was sortieing. The Marlin crew reported that they had visually identified four light cruisers and ten destroyers as part of the fleet. That was a serious amount of firepower. The flying boat was immediately ordered to shadow the fleet and continue reporting back on their course and speed. Meanwhile, a second Marlin was prepared to relieve the first with a Neptune and its crew alerted to a change in their mission orders for their evening flight.

In the harbor, ships began preparing for a possible emergency deployment to counter the Soviets. This would largely entail topping off fuel tanks, taking aboard additional stores and munitions and putting their crews on warning orders to be prepared to have their leaves cancelled with little or no notice. In his headquarters ashore Vice Admiral Fredrick Kivette, the Commander of 7th Fleet, reviewed his options to deal with the Soviets should they decide to stick their noses into the brewing crises in Indonesia.

The heady days of the Fast Carrier Task Force of World War Two were long gone. No longer could he call on nearly a dozen fleet carriers at once and deliver overwhelming firepower onto his enemies. At present, he had Midway, Bon Homme Richard and Yorktown in the area. And only Midway and Bonnie Dick had attack wings onboard. Ticonderoga and Ranger were both heading towards him, but until they were in the area he couldn't rely on them. Worse still, his carriers were spread out over hundreds of thousands of square miles of ocean.

Yorktown was down in the Banda Sea with plans to steam around New Guinea before steaming into the Philippine Sea to meet up with Bon Homme Richard, which was just leaving Subic Bay, and HMS Albion, en route from Singapore, for a hastily thrown together exercise. Ticonderoga would join them there when she arrived in theater a few days after the rest of the carriers joined together, but until then the task force would be woefully underarmed with only Bon Homme Richard shipping a full attack group. Admiral Kivette had gotten a look at what Albion had on board and nearly had a stroke at what the Royal Navy considered to be a front line air group. The planes the Brits were supplying were filler to his own air groups, nothing more. Added to that, he couldn't keep Tico on station for long. In the last year and a half, she had spent eleven months deployed and was in dire need of a refit. He could only keep her for maybe a month, two if she was lightly used. Ranger was only two days behind Ticonderoga, but she was being sent towards Japan to relieve Midway who was scheduled to begin her voyage back to Alameda in less than five days. That wouldn't be happening now.

After spending hours evaluating his options, Admiral Kivette made his decision. He would order Midway into the East China Sea to be in a position to intercept the Soviet fleet if needed. After the joint exercise with the Brits concluded, and assuming the Indonesian's showed signs of deescalating the crises, he would send Ticonderoga to Subic Bay for some much needed shore leave before detaching her to resume her journey back to CONUS with a stop in Hawaii along the way. Yorktown would stay with Bon Homme Richard and the two of them would join up with Midway if the Soviets were still playing games. He would keep Ranger in his back pocked just in case.
 
The heady days of the Fast Carrier Task Force of World War Two were long gone. No longer could he call on nearly a dozen fleet carriers at once and deliver overwhelming firepower onto his enemies.
Clearly this calls for the Seaplane Striking Force to plug USPACFLT's gaps :p

As a matter of fact, the P6M-2 Seamaster wasn't brutally canned until the fall of 1959 - so it is still in the running as of February.

Mandatory soundtrack
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GGU1P6lBW6Q
 
And talking of the Sverdlov-class, there’s a few incomplete hulls lying about in 1959. If the SU decides they need a more versatile or muscular core for their overseas deployments, perhaps something could be done with them? That’s if that idea has not already occurred in this timeline. Is the TU-91 Boot getting a bit of polish and care right now?
 
No, the Boot is dead and buried and the USSR was already planning a class of missile cruisers that were ordered in 1956 and began construction in 1960. Where we might see a change is either more of the Kynda-class cruisers or we might see the Kresta-1 class have more of an anti-surface role as opposed to their original ASW role. Depends where the TL goes. There will be lessons learned by everyone involved here.
 
No, the Boot is dead and buried and the USSR was already planning a class of missile cruisers that were ordered in 1956 and began construction in 1960.

So the Tu-91 got the boot (ha ha, badduuum tssss !)

Seriously, NATO codenames bet all level of stupidity at times.
-What the heck is a fishpot ? fish bowl, ok, but fishpot ?
- And don't start me on fishbed. "Damn, found a fish under my bed. Somethin' fishy here."
-And faggot, ain't that homophobic slang ? not that they cared much, in the lavender scare days of the Korean war...
 
No, the Boot is dead and buried and the USSR was already planning a class of missile cruisers that were ordered in 1956 and began construction in 1960.

So the Tu-91 got the boot (ha ha, badduuum tssss !)

Seriously, NATO codenames bet all level of stupidity at times.
-What the heck is a fishpot ? fish bowl, ok, but fishpot ?
- And don't start me on fishbed. "Damn, found a fish under my bed. Somethin' fishy here."
-And faggot, ain't that homophobic slang ? not that they cared much, in the lavender scare days of the Korean war...
Faggot then meant, in addition to being used as a degoratory term for a homosexual, a bundle of sticks or steel tubes, or even the instrument which is (and already was then) usually called bassoon in English, but which is still known as fagotto in Italian, Fagott in German and Swedish, fagotti in Finnish etc.
 
Yeah, the F404 was an almost perfect drop in replacement for the J79. I'm honestly surprised that no one opted to do that with their F-4s. It offered significantly better fuel consumption when in afterburner (1.74 vs 1.965) and better fuel burn at military power (.81 vs .84). So the same or better thrust at lower fuel burn allowing much better range. Not quite as good as the PW1120 would have offered, and certainly no supercruise ability. But it still would have been useful. Particularly as an early to mid 80s upgrade for operators like Japan, South Korea and Germany.
 
Yeah, the F404 was an almost perfect drop in replacement for the J79.
Which perfectly circles back to our original discussions on upgrading the F-4 in the ~early 70s or so. Geez that was a few years ago already? GE has the engine core and technology to make a drop J79 replacement, now they just need customers…
 

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