Cold Warriors: The Essex Class in the Cold War

[bobtdwarf]

Yeah, the F404 was an almost perfect drop in replacement for the J79.

Which perfectly circles back to our original discussions on upgrading the F-4 in the ~early 70s or so. Geez that was a few years ago already? GE has the engine core and technology to make a drop J79 replacement, now they just need customers…

it also has some interesting permutations on "what if" scenarios. Engine swapped Bucc's in that thread...

 

[Archibald]

Yeah, the F404 was an almost perfect drop in replacement for the J79. I'm honestly surprised that no one opted to do that with their F-4s. It offered significantly better fuel consumption when in afterburner (1.74 vs 1.965) and better fuel burn at military power (.81 vs .84). So the same or better thrust at lower fuel burn allowing much better range. Not quite as good as the PW1120 would have offered, and certainly no supercruise ability. But it still would have been useful. Particularly as an early to mid 80s upgrade for operators like Japan, South Korea and Germany.

I think the Hornet nipped that in the bud. If only because MDD had not only the Hornet, but also the F-15 to sell abroad. Any talk about (even engines) upgrade to the vast fleet of Phantoms, was probably anatema to them. Well Israel did tried such trick with their PW1120 Phantom, as shown at Le Bourget in 1987, and they had the Lavi on top of it. But MDD lobbied Uncle Sam, and this went nowhere...

 

[Archibald]

Yeah, the F404 was an almost perfect drop in replacement for the J79.

Which perfectly circles back to our original discussions on upgrading the F-4 in the ~early 70s or so. Geez that was a few years ago already? GE has the engine core and technology to make a drop J79 replacement, now they just need customers…

By this metric the real missed opportunity was the YJ101 (since it was the F404 direct ancestor in the P.530 / YF-17 days).
YJ101 Phantom ? but once again, that screws the YF-17. Although at the time it was Northrop, not MDD.
But still MDD had the F-15 to market, and once again, any talk about re-engined Phantoms... no forget it.

I still think the big missed opportunity was Northrop going for the P.530 and two YJ101: instead of a... "Proto F-20", that is: a F-5E with just one YJ101. Considering how Northrop ended screwed THRICE IN A ROW over the P.530 legacy (YF-17, F-18L, F-20) maybe they should have pushed for the "F-20 approach" right from 1967, with YJ101 instead of F404: 15 years ahead (1968 rather than 1983).

In a sense, Vought and Northrop doomed themselves by inventing the A-7F and F-20 in the 1980's. Had these splendid flying machines (single engine F-5 and afterburning supersonic A-7) been invented in the late 1960's, they could have been world beaters.

But hindsight is always 20/20.

 

[CV12Hornet]

By this metric the real missed opportunity was the YJ101 (since it was the F404 direct ancestor in the P.530 / YF-17 days).
YJ101 Phantom ? but once again, that screws the YF-17. Although at the time it was Northrop, not MDD.
But still MDD had the F-15 to market, and once again, any talk about re-engined Phantoms... no forget it.

I still think the big missed opportunity was Northrop going for the P.530 and two YJ101: instead of a... "Proto F-20", that is: a F-5E with just one YJ101. Considering how Northrop ended screwed THRICE IN A ROW over the P.530 legacy (YF-17, F-18L, F-20) maybe they should have pushed for the "F-20 approach" right from 1967, with YJ101 instead of F404: 15 years ahead (1968 rather than 1983).

In a sense, Vought and Northrop doomed themselves by inventing the A-7F and F-20 in the 1980's. Had these splendid flying machines (single engine F-5 and afterburning supersonic A-7) been invented in the late 1960's, they could have been world beaters.

But hindsight is always 20/20.

The problem with the YJ101 on the Phantom is that it would have had less thrust than the J79s it would've been replacing. The F404 works as a J79 replacement because you have the same thrust for less weight and space; the PW1120 works because you have more thrust for less weight and space. Sadly, the YJ101 isn't capable of that.

 

[Archibald]

Funnily enough, I just realized such "castrated" Phantom would like the Blackburn P.141...

 

[SSgtC]

By this metric the real missed opportunity was the YJ101 (since it was the F404 direct ancestor in the P.530 / YF-17 days).
YJ101 Phantom ? but once again, that screws the YF-17. Although at the time it was Northrop, not MDD.
But still MDD had the F-15 to market, and once again, any talk about re-engined Phantoms... no forget it.

I still think the big missed opportunity was Northrop going for the P.530 and two YJ101: instead of a... "Proto F-20", that is: a F-5E with just one YJ101. Considering how Northrop ended screwed THRICE IN A ROW over the P.530 legacy (YF-17, F-18L, F-20) maybe they should have pushed for the "F-20 approach" right from 1967, with YJ101 instead of F404: 15 years ahead (1968 rather than 1983).

In a sense, Vought and Northrop doomed themselves by inventing the A-7F and F-20 in the 1980's. Had these splendid flying machines (single engine F-5 and afterburning supersonic A-7) been invented in the late 1960's, they could have been world beaters.

But hindsight is always 20/20.

The problem with the YJ101 on the Phantom is that it would have had less thrust than the J79s it would've been replacing. The F404 works as a J79 replacement because you have the same thrust for less weight and space; the PW1120 works because you have more thrust for less weight and space. Sadly, the YJ101 isn't capable of that.

Ya know, if GE had developed the J101 just a little earlier, it could have offered it in a "Monkey Model" F-4 for export to nations that the US wanted as allies, but didn't trust enough to give them truly top of the line hardware. A dumbed down F-4 with only an APQ-50 and AIM-7D/AIM-9B with J101 engines could have been very attractive to a lot of nations in the late 60s that wanted a more substantial fighter than the other available options.

 

[CV12Hornet]

Ya know, if GE had developed the J101 just a little earlier, it could have offered it in a "Monkey Model" F-4 for export to nations that the US wanted as allies, but didn't trust enough to give them truly top of the line hardware. A dumbed down F-4 with only an APQ-50 and AIM-7D/AIM-9B with J101 engines could have been very attractive to a lot of nations in the late 60s that wanted a more substantial fighter than the other available options.

Except the YJ101 is more advanced than the J79, not less.

 

[isayyo2]

While the J101 was under-sized for the Phantom, the engine core could have been upsized into a J79 thrust category. At least that’s what I’ve understood from the above posters.

@Archibald Have you seen the P610 model? Would’ve been interesting with a Spey/TF41…

 

[SSgtC]

Ya know, if GE had developed the J101 just a little earlier, it could have offered it in a "Monkey Model" F-4 for export to nations that the US wanted as allies, but didn't trust enough to give them truly top of the line hardware. A dumbed down F-4 with only an APQ-50 and AIM-7D/AIM-9B with J101 engines could have been very attractive to a lot of nations in the late 60s that wanted a more substantial fighter than the other available options.

Except the YJ101 is more advanced than the J79, not less.

Well, I meant more the aircraft as a whole system, not necessarily the engine by itself. A more advanced but weaker engine which would lower maintenance requirements over the J79 while at the same time, limiting the performance of the Phantom

 

[Lascaris]

Yeah, the F404 was an almost perfect drop in replacement for the J79. I'm honestly surprised that no one opted to do that with their F-4s. It offered significantly better fuel consumption when in afterburner (1.74 vs 1.965) and better fuel burn at military power (.81 vs .84). So the same or better thrust at lower fuel burn allowing much better range. Not quite as good as the PW1120 would have offered, and certainly no supercruise ability. But it still would have been useful. Particularly as an early to mid 80s upgrade for operators like Japan, South Korea and Germany.

How much would it be costing compared to a new F-18 or F-16?

 

[bobtdwarf]

Yeah, the F404 was an almost perfect drop in replacement for the J79. I'm honestly surprised that no one opted to do that with their F-4s. It offered significantly better fuel consumption when in afterburner (1.74 vs 1.965) and better fuel burn at military power (.81 vs .84). So the same or better thrust at lower fuel burn allowing much better range. Not quite as good as the PW1120 would have offered, and certainly no supercruise ability. But it still would have been useful. Particularly as an early to mid 80s upgrade for operators like Japan, South Korea and Germany.

How much would it be costing compared to a new F-18 or F-16?

going to take a wild guess of several million less...

 

[SSgtC]

Yeah, the F404 was an almost perfect drop in replacement for the J79. I'm honestly surprised that no one opted to do that with their F-4s. It offered significantly better fuel consumption when in afterburner (1.74 vs 1.965) and better fuel burn at military power (.81 vs .84). So the same or better thrust at lower fuel burn allowing much better range. Not quite as good as the PW1120 would have offered, and certainly no supercruise ability. But it still would have been useful. Particularly as an early to mid 80s upgrade for operators like Japan, South Korea and Germany.

How much would it be costing compared to a new F-18 or F-16?

Like almost everything, the answer is, "it depends." Are you just dropping in new engines to squeeze more life out of an aging airframe that's already been bought and paid for as a stop gap until you can afford new planes? Then it's pretty damn cheap. Are you doing it as part of a much more extensive upgrade Ala the German F-4F ICE or Turkish F-4E 2000? Then it's probably cheaper (when factoring in expected life span) to just bite bullet and buy new Vipers or Hornets.

 

[_Del_]

While the J101 was under-sized for the Phantom, the engine core could have been upsized into a J79 thrust category.

That's essentially the genesis of the F404...


GE15 designed for export fighter category (circa 1969) up to about 10,000 lb thrust


-> Evolves (and "steals" CF6 combuster design elements) and gets a new name J101 to support Northrop projects including YF-17, eventually getting up to 14,000, then 15,000 lbs


-> upsized fan with J101 core becomes F404 With 16,000 lb thrust, eventually/currently 19,000 lb thrust

-> nonafterburning, much larger fan F412, new material advances, heavily modified (~13,000 lb dry thrust)

-> smaller (than F412) fan, shortened and substantially modified compressor and combuster gets to ~18,000 lb thrust, improving quickly to 22,000 lbs thrust, still being tinkered with

Yeah, the F404 was an almost perfect drop in replacement for the J79. I'm honestly surprised that no one opted to do that with their F-4s...
So the same or better thrust at lower fuel burn ...

The F404 works as a J79 replacement because you have the same thrust for less weight and space;

The early F404, including the first 1,000 or so production Hornets, had almost 2000 lbs less thrust than a J79 (though fewer parts, less weight, etc). Phantom is twin-engined, of course, so you're asking a customer to cut 3800 lbs of available thrust from their Phantoms. Everyone wants more thrust, not less, from their Phantoms, by this point (PW1120 proposals from mid-80's).

The more powerful F404-GE-402 gets to essentially thrust-parity with the J79 (considering weight differences), but by the time it's ready for prime time and is ordered into production by the USN, we've made it to very late 1991. Most everyone has moved on or isn't willing to invest the money. ICE, starts almost a decade earlier in 83, for example, and is aimed for interim roles until replacement (of course, the Eurofighter is repeatedly delayed, so the Phantom stays on longer than expected).

 

[Lascaris]

Yeah, the F404 was an almost perfect drop in replacement for the J79. I'm honestly surprised that no one opted to do that with their F-4s. It offered significantly better fuel consumption when in afterburner (1.74 vs 1.965) and better fuel burn at military power (.81 vs .84). So the same or better thrust at lower fuel burn allowing much better range. Not quite as good as the PW1120 would have offered, and certainly no supercruise ability. But it still would have been useful. Particularly as an early to mid 80s upgrade for operators like Japan, South Korea and Germany.

How much would it be costing compared to a new F-18 or F-16?

Like almost everything, the answer is, "it depends." Are you just dropping in new engines to squeeze more life out of an aging airframe that's already been bought and paid for as a stop gap until you can afford new planes? Then it's pretty damn cheap. Are you doing it as part of a much more extensive upgrade Ala the German F-4F ICE or Turkish F-4E 2000? Then it's probably cheaper (when factoring in expected life span) to just bite bullet and buy new Vipers or Hornets.

I'm uhm unconvinced about the pretty damn cheap part? You have development costs, need to certify the aircraft to the new engines including flight testing, and then besides anything else you got to pay for the engines themselves which cost 4-7 million apiece. The Greek modernisation back in the 1990s with brand new electronics, radar and Litening cost about 10 million apiece so here we are talking something in the 20-25 million range in 1990s prices? That's roughly half the price of a new build F-18 at the time.

So my question is, is it worth the price? My other thought is if you have gone to the trouble... how would a new build super phantom with F404 and new electronics compare to 4th generation designs?

 

[SSgtC]

I'm uhm unconvinced about the pretty damn cheap part? You have development costs, need to certify the aircraft to the new engines including flight testing, and then besides anything else you got to pay for the engines themselves which cost 4-7 million apiece. The Greek modernisation back in the 1990s with brand new electronics, radar and Litening cost about 10 million apiece so here we are talking something in the 20-25 million range in 1990s prices? That's roughly half the price of a new build F-18 at the time.

So my question is, is it worth the price? My other thought is if you have gone to the trouble... how would a new build super phantom with F404 and new electronics compare to 4th generation designs?

Seeing as just new engines are less than half the cost of a new fighter, I'll stick with my "pretty damn cheap" assessment. I also noted that if you're adding new engines on top of other upgrades like the F-4F ICE, then you're going to rapidly hit the point where a new F-16 will probably be your better option.

Considering that the last US built Phantom left the production line in 1979, and the last Japanese built example (and last ever new build Phantom followed in early 81) you're probably not getting a new build version. But, we can actually answer this. And the answer is, very well actually. If you replace the radar, update the avionics, replace older, heavier systems with new lighter ones, replace the wiring, update the cockpits and install new PW1120s, you'll end up with a fighter on par with early F-15s (better in some respects, like the fact that the Phantom can now supercruise). It would be at only a very slight disadvantage to F-15Cs due to the Eagle having a bigger radar. But otherwise, you would essentially have a 4th Gen fighter.

 

[bobtdwarf]

I'm uhm unconvinced about the pretty damn cheap part? You have development costs, need to certify the aircraft to the new engines including flight testing, and then besides anything else you got to pay for the engines themselves which cost 4-7 million apiece. The Greek modernisation back in the 1990s with brand new electronics, radar and Litening cost about 10 million apiece so here we are talking something in the 20-25 million range in 1990s prices? That's roughly half the price of a new build F-18 at the time.

So my question is, is it worth the price? My other thought is if you have gone to the trouble... how would a new build super phantom with F404 and new electronics compare to 4th generation designs?

Seeing as just new engines are less than half the cost of a new fighter, I'll stick with my "pretty damn cheap" assessment. I also noted that if you're adding new engines on top of other upgrades like the F-4F ICE, then you're going to rapidly hit the point where a new F-16 will probably be your better option.

Considering that the last US built Phantom left the production line in 1979, and the last Japanese built example (and last ever new build Phantom followed in early 81) you're probably not getting a new build version. But, we can actually answer this. And the answer is, very well actually. If you replace the radar, update the avionics, replace older, heavier systems with new lighter ones, replace the wiring, update the cockpits and install new PW1120s, you'll end up with a fighter on par with early F-15s (better in some respects, like the fact that the Phantom can now supercruise). It would be at only a very slight disadvantage to F-15Cs due to the Eagle having a bigger radar. But otherwise, you would essentially have a 4th Gen fighter.

80% of the capability at 50% of the cost is a good deal

 

[Topi]

I do wonder if we are going to see a Medway-powered F-8U3 with blown wings, Red Tops, Sky Flash (from the 1970's) and a large-dish AI.23 fitted with a CW illuminator being operated by both RN and RAF. Could the extra thrust compensate for the added weight of an ADEN cannon?

 

[SSgtC]

I do wonder if we are going to see a Medway-powered F-8U3 with blown wings, Red Tops, Sky Flash (from the 1970's) and a large-dish AI.23 fitted with a CW illuminator being operated by both RN and RAF. Could the extra thrust compensate for the added weight of an ADEN cannon?

The Crusader III already had blown flaps, so that would be a point in its favor for operation off of Royal Navy carriers. The Medway would be a great British alternative to the J75 (roughly equally thrust between them with the Medway having significantly lower SFC and probably being lighter in service than the J75). Assuming a British buy of the type, it's very doubtful that they would be equipped with AI.23. The American APQ-72 was probably the better option for the type given the need to guide Sparrows. Red Top is a possibility in place of the Sidewinders, but at almost double the weight, the Crusader III could only carry one on each cheek pylon compared to two Sidewinders on each.

I'm not sure if the RAF would want the type though. It's an excellent air superiority fighter and interceptor, but it can't hold a candle to the Phantom in terms of ground attack (18,000 pounds for the Phantom vs 6,000 for the Crusader).

 

[zen]

I think the stronger case is the RB.106 Thames or BS.30 Zeus in the Crusader and later on the Spey.
Effectively delivering Crusader III performance into the smaller package.
F8U-III however is more Gyron, RB.122 and RB.128 territory. Or a straight through BS.100.
Though a development of the Medway is attractive.

 

[zen]

I'm not sure if the RAF would want the type though. It's an excellent air superiority fighter and interceptor, but it can't hold a candle to the Phantom in terms of ground attack (18,000 pounds for the Phantom vs 6,000 for the Crusader).

It's a lot easier to maintain than a Lightning, and in twin seater variant equal or better to a Phantom in Fighter missions.
It's debatable if the RAF wanted such ordinance lugging capacity at the time.

 

[SSgtC]

I think the stronger case is the RB.106 Thames or BS.30 Zeus in the Crusader and later on the Spey.
Effectively delivering Crusader III performance into the smaller package.
F8U-III however is more Gyron, RB.122 and RB.128 territory. Or a straight through BS.100.
Though a development of the Medway is attractive.

RB.106 is already dead and buried though along with being weaker than the J75. The Medway is in development right now though and it's a relatively "simple" thing to add an afterburner to the engine. It's probably the best existing option for the type assuming the UK decides to buy the Crusader III in the early 60s.

Edit: the Gyron is also a possibility if Hawker actually finishes the P.1121 prototype in this time frame. Given that the type had more interest this time around (the RAAF really liked it) its possible Hawker could decide to fund one flying example

 

[zen]

RB.106 is already dead and buried though along with being weaker than the J75. The Medway is in development right now though and it's a relatively "simple" thing to add an afterburner to the engine. It's probably the best existing option for the type assuming the UK decides to buy the Crusader III in the early 60s.

RB.106, BS.39 or Spey is in place of J57 on F8.

Gyron, RB.122 or Medway is in place of J75 on F8U-III.

Thought I typed that (painfully on a horrid mobile phone)...

 

[SSgtC]

RB.106 is already dead and buried though along with being weaker than the J75. The Medway is in development right now though and it's a relatively "simple" thing to add an afterburner to the engine. It's probably the best existing option for the type assuming the UK decides to buy the Crusader III in the early 60s.

RB.106, BS.39 or Spey is in place of J57 on F8.

Gyron, RB.122 or Medway is in place of J75 on F8U-III.

Thought I typed that (painfully on a horrid mobile phone)...

Ahhhh, gotcha. No, I think if the UK buys the Crusader, it'll be the F8U-3. The type has already been ordered by the RAAF and RAN FAA. So it could see more interest coming from the UK. Particularly since Vought has already shown a willingness to license production. It's a really good way to get an advanced fighter and keep money at home

 

[zen]

Ahhhh, gotcha. No, I think if the UK buys the Crusader, it'll be the F8U-3. The type has already been ordered by the RAAF and RAN FAA. So it could see more interest coming from the UK. Particularly since Vought has already shown a willingness to license production. It's a really good way to get an advanced fighter and keep money at home

I can agree that, since the F8U-III could be quite compatible with a number of UK systems and philosophy.

Though an earlier F8 with Avon and 30mm ADEN would've solved a lot.

 

[starviking]

Gyron, RB.122 or Medway is in place of J75 on F8U-III.

Though for the Gyron the question is: are the thrust surges encountered on testing with the p1121 inlet due to the engine, inlet, or somewhere in between (From the p1121 monograph).

 

[SSgtC]

Gyron, RB.122 or Medway is in place of J75 on F8U-III.

Though for the Gyron the question is: are the thrust surges encountered on testing with the p1121 inlet due to the engine, inle, or somewhere in between (From the p1121 monograph).

And this is particularly pertinent given you're possibly putting the engine into an airframe with already existing issues with compressor stalls due to the inlet design. While that issue has largely been resolved ITTL with the adoption of a variable intake ramp, more testing still needs to be done to make sure the issue won't rear its ugly head again.

 

[SSgtC]

February 21, 1959
East China Sea

The droning of the Pratt & Whitney R3350 was nearly enough to lull you to sleep. Or at least it was in the opinion of Ltjg John Tunnel. Flying reconnaissance and surveillance missions like this was one of the most boring missions he could ever imagine flying. His radar operator however, couldn't disagree more. He was completely and totally focused on the screen in front of him. Lieutenant Tunnel could barely make heads or tales of what the screen showed, not with it being so full of spots, blotches and lines. But Ltjg Albertson seemed to perk up the more he watched the screen.

"John, stay on this heading for another five minutes," John Albertson said. "I know we're supposed to turn in two, but I think I've got something here."

"Rog," he replied.

The modified Skyraider they were flying continued on into the dark night sky, shuddering and bumping slightly as they flew through a patch of turbulence. Beside him, John was muttering back and forth with their radar technician, Chief Petty Officer Scott Moscoe, as they worked to pull every last scrap of information they could out of their radar system. Finally, he heard John say, "Gotcha."

With a soft click, the radio came alive and Ltjg Albertson called out, "School Boy, this is Controller 4. Radar contact one-five-zero miles north-north-east of my position. Multiple large surface contacts operating in formation. Course one-six-zero, speed twelve knots."

As the radio clicked off, he heard the Chief in the back seat chuckle and proclaim, "You can run, but you can't hide Ivan."

Well, at least tracking a Soviet fleet would keep his crew busy, Tunnel thought. He'd be just as bored driving the bus in a slow, lazy circle around them as he would be flying a patrol track.

 

[SSgtC]

February 23, 1959
Mokmer Airfield, Biak, West New Guinea

The raid came in at dawn. Six Badger bombers had dropped full bomb loads all over the airfield. Compared to this, the raid on the thirteenth was just a pinprick. The runway, which had painstakingly been repaired after the previous attack had been hit hard with no fewer than a dozen bombs impacting along its length. The maintenance hanger had been leveled, the flightline had taken a string of bombs and wiped out four Neptunes but worst of all, one of the aircraft shelters had taken a direct hit and destroyed one of their last four fighters.

When the raid alert came in, the decision had been made not to launch their last three airworthy fighters. No one would ever know exactly why that decision had been made since the squadron CO, Lieutenant Colonel Guido Schols was killed in the attack. Cas Bass could only curse at his enforced impotence. He had begged to be allowed into the air. But he had been refused. He was on the verge of saying, "fuck it" and going up anyway when the first bombs began to fall. He wouldn't be flying anywhere now. At least not until the runway could be repaired. If it could be repaired.

It wasn't long before he received even more unwelcome news. After this latest attack, he was now the senior surviving officer left in the squadron. In effect, he had just been promoted to command what was left of 322 Squadron. God save us all, he thought.

 

[isayyo2]

God save us all, he thought

Reads like it’s right out of Tom Clancy!

I’m at the edge of my seat

 

[SSgtC]

February 24, 1959
Philippine Sea

On the Flag Bridge of Bon Homme Richard, Rear Admiral Schoech read over the latest radio messages from Seventh Fleet. The Soviets had put to sea nearly a week ago from Vladivostok. Damn near their entire Pacific Fleet had sortied. The fleet had been tracked by Marlins and Neptunes out of Japan before a Guppy from Midway had made contact with the formation a few nights ago. They were still steaming towards the Southwest Pacific area of operations. No one was entirely sure what they were up to either. Moscow had been entirely too tightlipped for his tastes about what seemed to be an unplanned deployment.

Glancing at the plotting board, he noted the positions of the other three aircraft carriers in the formation. Yorktown was positioned to the southwest, where her anti-submarine group could shield the formation from Indonesian submarines. He would have to order her to the north shortly though. It was unlikely that the Soviets would send out their entire surface fleet and overlook sending a few submarines their way as well. Ticonderoga and Albion were also out here with him, with Ticonderoga sailing two miles off his port beam and Albion positioned to the northeast in what Admiral Schoech judged to be the least likely attack axis. Her small air group could never hope to seriously disrupt a determined attack on the fleet. But they could drive off any snoopers that came around.

For a thrown together exercise, things had actually gone fairly well. There had been some grumbling from the crew of Ticonderoga of course. Captain Coleman had advised him of it when he came aboard after Ticonderoga joined up with the rest of the formation. He could sympathize with her crew. Being turned around and sent back to the Western Pacific when you're only a few days from home must have been a punch to the gut of every man onboard. With a little luck, he'd be able to detach her from the formation in another few days for a little R&R at Cubi Point. Until then though, she still had a job to do and, as he informed her skipper, he expected her to perform up to his exacting standards regardless of how long she'd been deployed. To his credit, Captain Coleman had assured him that his ship and his crew would exceed those expectations. And then they had proceeded to do just that.

Unfortunately, their presence in the area didn't seem to be discouraging the Indonesians in the slightest. They had launched a devastating raid on Biak just the day before. Early reports of the damage seemed to suggest that the airfield had been knocked almost completely out of commission. He was aware that the Dutch were sending a task force of their own centered on a light carrier to the area in order to enforce their claims to the island. But he really didn't know what they could do. They were supposed to fly in a squadron of more modern fighters to defend the base, but given the level of destruction being caused there, he didn't think that would be entirely possible. But that wasn't his call to make. He had told Admiral Kivette of his concerns regarding the Dutch carrier though. If the Indonesians had acquired Kennel missiles, and the bombers to launch them, the Dutch could be in for a rude surprise. Admiral Kivette shared his concerns and had sent them up the line, but it remained to be seen what, if anything, the Dutch would do with them.

 

[lordroel]

God save us all, he thought

Reads like it’s right out of Tom Clancy!

I’m at the edge of my seat

Second that.

 

[SSgtC]

February 26, 1959
Cape Town, South Africa

HNLMS Zeeleeuw cast off the last of the lines securing her to the fueling pier in Cape Town's vast harbor. She had made a fast passage from her homeport in Amsterdam. With a stop along the way in Las Palmas to top off her tanks, she had made the entire journey at her flank speed of twenty knots. Her next stop was in Freemantle, Western Australia. Again, for fuel. After that, it was straight up to Hollandia and they would start local operations against Indonesian shipping.

Captain Roel Hordijk, the commanding officer of Zeeleeuw, was quite familiar with the waters around Indonesia. He had been posted there as a junior officer prior to World War II, had seen his submarine O-20 sunk by the Japanese, been a prisoner of war, escaped and was able to continue the fight. Now he was going back to wage another war. He had put his crew through intense drills during their voyage and he would continue to do so. By the time they reached the waters around West New Guinea they would be a well oiled machine. At the moment, they were scheduled to reach Hollandia on March 13th.

 

[SSgtC]

February 28, 1959
Jakarta, Indonesia

President Sukarno and General Nasution had the latest reports from General Suharto in front of them. The progress of Operation Trikora was good. The loses to their aviation units had been heavy, but the destruction that had wrought was worth the price. An Americanism crept into Sukarno's mind, "You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs." Well, they had broken their eggs and were making their omelet. The Dutch fighter squadron based on Biak had been decimated and had not even tried to contest their latest bombing mission. The question now was whether the Dutch defenses were sufficiently weakened to allow them to begin landing soldiers on the islands.

General Suharto believed that a few bombing missions should be flown against possible beach defense sites and what he believed to be a Dutch supply depot that had been identified in a reconnaissance photograph. But Suharto did not have all the information that he did. For in addition to the reports from his own military, he had several intelligence reports from their "friends" in the USSR. The Dutch were sending a carrier group to press their claims to the island. The KGB believed that the Dutch would not arrive before the end of March. The reports that had been provided to them suggested that the Dutch would need to stop to refuel in Tenerife, South Africa and Australia. The Soviets promised to do what they could to stir up the dockworker's unions in those countries to delay the ships as much as they could.

Across from him, General Nasution was not overly concerned with the Dutch carrier. "An old ship with outdated planes," was what he called her. Their own fighters and bombers were much more modern. Had they not just demonstrated the ability to target a carrier at sea when they had sent their bombers against the American interloper in the Banda Sea? Should the Dutch prove foolish enough to send their carrier within range of their bombers, they would receive a warm welcome.

Sukarno made his decision. The bombing missions General Suharto wanted would be approved. Due to the small number of aircraft they had, and the small stock of bombs available however, the missions would have to be carried out over the next two weeks. They also couldn't afford to ignore Mokmer Airfield either during that time. Their bomber fleet would be quite busy it seemed.

After a few more hours discussing their options for the planned attack and the logistics involved in it, final approval was sent to General Suharto to begin final preparations for the invasion of West Irian. Baring bad weather, the invasion would begin on March 14th.

 

[lordroel]

February 28, 1959
Jakarta, Indonesia

"An old ship with outdated planes," was what he called her.

I hope he is wrong.

 

[SSgtC]

February 28, 1959
Jakarta, Indonesia

"An old ship with outdated planes," was what he called her.

I hope he is wrong.

He's not though. Doorman's air group consisted of Hawker Sea Hawks and TBF Avengers. And Doorman herself, despite having been modernized with an angle deck and steam cats, was still a Colossus class light fleet at her heart

 

[lordroel]

February 28, 1959
Jakarta, Indonesia

"An old ship with outdated planes," was what he called her.

I hope he is wrong.

He's not though. Doorman's air group consisted of Hawker Sea Hawks and TBF Avengers. And Doorman herself, despite having been modernized with an angle deck and steam cats, was still a Colossus class light fleet at her heart

Well we have to wait and see then.

 

[Archibald]

Sukarno and Suharto... the same that clashed in 1965, one chasing the other out of of power ?
And yet as of 1959 they were working hand in hand.
Politics, really...

 

[SSgtC]

Sukarno and Suharto... the same that clashed in 1965, one chasing the other out of of power ?
And yet as of 1959 they were working hand in hand.
Politics, really...

In 59 they wanted the same thing: a strong independent Indonesia. And an Indonesia that included West New Guinea. Neither liked how the USA was meddling in Indonesian affairs either. Suharto only became western leaning when the Soviets became overbearing and the US offered him a ton of support

 

[lordroel]

Sukarno and Suharto... the same that clashed in 1965, one chasing the other out of of power ?
And yet as of 1959 they were working hand in hand.
Politics, really...

In 59 they wanted the same thing: a strong independent Indonesia. And an Indonesia that included West New Guinea. Neither liked how the USA was meddling in Indonesian affairs either. Suharto only became western leaning when the Soviets became overbearing and the US offered him a ton of support

Might the Soviets trow one under the bus in order to strengthen their position.

 

[SSgtC]

Sukarno and Suharto... the same that clashed in 1965, one chasing the other out of of power ?
And yet as of 1959 they were working hand in hand.
Politics, really...

In 59 they wanted the same thing: a strong independent Indonesia. And an Indonesia that included West New Guinea. Neither liked how the USA was meddling in Indonesian affairs either. Suharto only became western leaning when the Soviets became overbearing and the US offered him a ton of support

Might the Soviets trow one under the bus in order to strengthen their position.

If they feel it's in their best interests, sure. The USSR, USA, France, etc, they all did that when it suited their purposes. If they did, it would likely be Suharto getting an unfortunate case of lead poisoning though over Sukarno. Suharto was no fan of the USSR.