Cold Warriors: The Essex Class in the Cold War

[Archibald]

Sukarno and Suharto... the same that clashed in 1965, one chasing the other out of of power ?
And yet as of 1959 they were working hand in hand.
Politics, really...

In 59 they wanted the same thing: a strong independent Indonesia. And an Indonesia that included West New Guinea. Neither liked how the USA was meddling in Indonesian affairs either. Suharto only became western leaning when the Soviets became overbearing and the US offered him a ton of support

Might the Soviets trow one under the bus in order to strengthen their position.

If they feel it's in their best interests, sure. The USSR, USA, France, etc, they all did that when it suited their purposes. If they did, it would likely be Suharto getting an unfortunate case of lead poisoning though over Sukarno. Suharto was no fan of the USSR.

Lead is old fashioned. Try ricine or polonium, Vlad style.

 

[SSgtC]

Sukarno and Suharto... the same that clashed in 1965, one chasing the other out of of power ?
And yet as of 1959 they were working hand in hand.
Politics, really...

In 59 they wanted the same thing: a strong independent Indonesia. And an Indonesia that included West New Guinea. Neither liked how the USA was meddling in Indonesian affairs either. Suharto only became western leaning when the Soviets became overbearing and the US offered him a ton of support

Might the Soviets trow one under the bus in order to strengthen their position.

If they feel it's in their best interests, sure. The USSR, USA, France, etc, they all did that when it suited their purposes. If they did, it would likely be Suharto getting an unfortunate case of lead poisoning though over Sukarno. Suharto was no fan of the USSR.

Lead is old fashioned. Try ricine or polonium, Vlad style.

Depends who's administering it, really. And if they want people to know what happened or not

 

[GTX]

Any updates?

 

[SSgtC]

Any updates?

I'm working on a couple. Just been very busy with work.

 

[Volkodav]

Sukarno and Suharto... the same that clashed in 1965, one chasing the other out of of power ?
And yet as of 1959 they were working hand in hand.
Politics, really...

In 59 they wanted the same thing: a strong independent Indonesia. And an Indonesia that included West New Guinea. Neither liked how the USA was meddling in Indonesian affairs either. Suharto only became western leaning when the Soviets became overbearing and the US offered him a ton of support

Might the Soviets trow one under the bus in order to strengthen their position.

If they feel it's in their best interests, sure. The USSR, USA, France, etc, they all did that when it suited their purposes. If they did, it would likely be Suharto getting an unfortunate case of lead poisoning though over Sukarno. Suharto was no fan of the USSR.

Lead is old fashioned. Try ricine or polonium, Vlad style.

Depends who's administering it, really. And if they want people to know what happened or not

Wasn't there a plot to discredit Sukarno through a pornographic movie using body double? CAI and Walt Disney, or was it Bing Crosby?

 

[lordroel]

Sukarno and Suharto... the same that clashed in 1965, one chasing the other out of of power ?
And yet as of 1959 they were working hand in hand.
Politics, really...

In 59 they wanted the same thing: a strong independent Indonesia. And an Indonesia that included West New Guinea. Neither liked how the USA was meddling in Indonesian affairs either. Suharto only became western leaning when the Soviets became overbearing and the US offered him a ton of support

Might the Soviets trow one under the bus in order to strengthen their position.

If they feel it's in their best interests, sure. The USSR, USA, France, etc, they all did that when it suited their purposes. If they did, it would likely be Suharto getting an unfortunate case of lead poisoning though over Sukarno. Suharto was no fan of the USSR.

Lead is old fashioned. Try ricine or polonium, Vlad style.

Depends who's administering it, really. And if they want people to know what happened or not

Wasn't there a plot to discredit Sukarno through a pornographic movie using body double? CAI and Walt Disney, or was it Bing Crosby?

The CIA and KGB Both Tried to Blackmail This World Leader With Sex Tapes

 

[SSgtC]

Apologies for the long delay in updating this. But like it has a tendency to do, life got in the way. I'm going to try to hold to a more regular update schedule going forward.

March 2, 1959
Philippine Sea

On board four carriers similar scenes were repeating themselves. Alarm klaxons were sounding as officers and men rushed to their posts. A large number of the enlisted men, and a not insignificant number of junior officer, could be heard grumbling about the incessant drills that the "old man" had them running. While it was true that Admiral Shoech had drilled his men nearly non-stop, this time he wasn't the cause of the call to General Quarters.

AD-5Ws from both Bon Homme Richard and Ticonderoga had picked up multiple inbound aircraft, type unknown but moving fast and in formation. It was a good bet that the damn Indonesians were using his ships for training again. What caused his level of concern to tick up a notch were the other contacts that were being plotted. These had come from the Trackers flying off of Yorktown.

One of her planes had been enroute to its patrol station and was doing a gear check along the way. They just happened to have the MAD boom out and the readout spiked. After a few sonobuoys had been dropped, they radioed in a confirmed submarine contact just to the east of the formation, and the formation was steaming straight at it while they conducted flight operations.

Deciding to try and scare the bastard off, Admiral Shoech ordered the crew in the Tracker to drop some active buoys so the sub would know that she'd been found. What the buoys revealed instead was the presence of a second submarine just on the edge of detection. Unable to prosecute both contacts at once, a Seabat helicopter was dispatched to keep tabs on the second sub while an additional Tracker was prepared to launch from Yorktown. While he could confidently leave the submarine threat up to Admiral Colestock and Yorktown, he would have to handle the inbound aircraft.

The airborne cap was currently being flown by the Sea Hawks of 806 Squadron from Albion. While they had already reoriented themselves towards the threat and pushed their throttles to the stops, they were not much more capable than the Banshees embarked on Yorktown and Ticonderoga. Yorktown was already putting up two of her Banshees to provide additional top cover over the fleet. Once airborne, they would join with four Banshees being launched off of Ticonderoga. That should give them sufficient close in cover if needed.

He would need to shoot off the ready Tigers from Bonnie Dick for an attempt at a deck launched intercept. They were the fastest planes he had and could get there first. After that would come his Demons. Both Tico and BHR carried a full squadron of the planes. He supposed it was time they earned their keep. According to his morning reports, both ships were keeping a two plane formation on the deck and ready to launch for this eventuality. They would be shot off ASAP.

He would also have to send up two of his Skywarriors. The Red Rockets of VAH-2 were thankfully equipped with the latest A3D-2 version of the plane and could conduct aerial refueling missions for his fighters. He should probably launch another pair of Guppys as well to relieve the two already airborne. Once his planes were in the air, and the handful that needed to recovered, he needed to turn his fleet away from the approaching submarines. He had no intention of going near any submarine, friendly or hostile, if he could avoid it.

 

[SSgtC]

March 2, 1959
Over the Philippine Sea

Lieutenant Commander Burtschell felt like he was reliving a nightmare. He was once again flying top cover for the fleet in his Banshee, and once again radar reported Badger bombers inbound. He already knew that his crate was not up to the task of intercepting the speedy Soviet built bombers. That lesson had been hammered home last month. But orders were still orders and so he was in the air again to try and defend the carriers.

At least this time the planes of his fighter detachment weren't the only planes in the air. Bonnie Dick and Tico had launched Tigers and Demons to intercept the inbound strike. The fucking Indonesians were in for a surprise if they thought they could get away with their antics a second time. He had caught a glimpse of the Tigers as they rocketed towards the contact. Their afterburners were blazing and they were hauling more ass than he could even dream of in his obsolete bucket of bolts. Those bombers were in for a surprise.

Soon the guard channel was filled with the sound of growls as the Tiger pilots broadcast over the air the growling of their Sidewinders warning the bombers that they had a missile pointed right up their six. A few minutes later, a new sound came over the open airwaves. The Demons were making their presence known as well. The tones from their Sparrow missiles warning of a lock on were distinctive. Commander Burtschell started to grin under his oxygen mask. Not so easy going after a fully formed battle group, is it Ivan? He would have to wait for the full debrief once he was back on deck, but if this had been the real thing, Ivan would be nursing a seriously bloody nose.

 

[SSgtC]

March 2, 1959
Under the Philippine Sea

PING! PING! PING! Captain Third Rank Rudolf Golosov cursed his luck. He had cleanly beaten the outer screen of the American battle group and was finalizing his preparations to launch a mock attack on one of the American carriers. But somehow the damn imperialists had managed to find him. His Project 611 submarine may not be the most advanced boat in the Soviet Navy, but she had a damn good crew, and for the life of him he couldn't figure how the Americans had managed to find him. But they did as their damn aircraft circling overhead proved.

His first attempt at slipping away had been foiled when the Americans dropped their active sonobuoys on him. They had him dead to rights. If they wanted to, they could have quickly put him on the wrong end of a torpedo or depth charge. But he still had a few tricks up his sleeve. Let the Americans think they had him localized and pinned down and he would use their hubris against them to slip away.

At his command several noise makers were released while he ordered B-72 deep and made a radical turn to confuse the American sensors. They couldn't listen to all their sonobuoys simultaneously. He would use the noise from the decoys to close in and launch his mock attack. His sonar was not the most capable in the world, but he could hear more active buoys being dropped around his noisemakers. He smiled to himself. Good luck finding him now, class oppressors.

The minutes ticked by slowly and the sounds of the hunt faded behind him. When he could no longer hear anything, he slowly brought his boat back up to periscope depth and risked a quick exposure. The scope was above the surface for less than six seconds and already he was getting reports on all the radar activity up there. There were multiple airborne search sets of the type carried by the American S-2 Tracker aircraft. They had even picked up a few surface search sets of the type fitted to the American's Gearing class destroyers. He would have to be quick to evade after he finished his "attack."

His quick survey of the surface also showed him that the formation was turning. They knew he was out here, and their Admiral would not want to put his precious carriers at risk by steaming straight at him. He would also know that his boat had no hope of closing the formation if they turned away from him and opened the throttles. But it did not matter. He was not where their admiral expected him to be. The ship he had originally been targeting was no longer within his engagement envelope, but another was heading straight at him. He was a smaller carrier, British or Australian maybe.

But that was just as good. Those nations were far weaker than the Americans, and showing how easily they could lose one of their precious carriers could possibly reap bigger rewards than "sinking" one of the dozens of American flattops would. All it would require of him was patience. And a little luck. Ordering his boat back deep, he would wait for his target to come to him.

Ten more minutes went by, and still they remained undetected. His own sonar thought they might have a twitch of something on the bearing he had last seen the British carrier on. With a quiet order, he circled slowly back up to periscope depth. He would need the visual bearings to the target to launch. While they came up to periscope depth he gave an order which, if misinterpreted, could begin the next world war.
He said, "Make torpedo tube one ready in all respects, including opening the outer door. Flood tubes two through six, but do not open the outer doors."

The order was quickly repeated back to him and the boat was shortly filled with the sound of rushing water as all six bow torpedo tubes were flooded with water. He quickly popped his ears as the air in tubes was vented back into the boat to prevent bubbles giving away his position on the surface. His boat was as ready as he could make it.

As his boat leveled off at the ordered depth he gave the order to raise the periscope. Rudolf caught the scope as it came up out of its well and began his search before the head had even broken the surface, looking for the shadow of any previously undetected ship hovering above him that could run him down in an instant if he wasn't careful. It looked clear. As the head broke the surface he spun around in a circle twice, first checking the surface and then checking the sky. They were both clear. Except for the sight of the carrier rapidly approaching his port bow.

Centering the ship in the lens, Rudolf called out, "Bearing on the bow!"

The Michman across from him answered, "Three-four-seven degrees!"

His Starpom at the fire control table said, "Range!"

Rudolf worked the stadimeter and said, "Four thousand meters!"

Once again his Starpom called out, "Second bearing?"

The Michman replied, "Three-five-one degrees!"

"Range?"

Working his stadimeter once again, Rudolf called out, "Three thousand-seven hundred meters!"

"Solution ready! Ship ready! Tube ready!"

Stepping back from the periscope, Captain Third Rank Golosov ordered, "Tube one, match bearings and shoot!"

With a rush of compressed air, the flare was expelled from the tube and carried forward and up where it break the surface and announce to the world, and more importantly to the crew of the approaching carrier, that they were now "dead."

 

[SSgtC]

March 3, 1959
Philippine Sea

The data tapes from CIC had been analyzed along with the gun camera footage from the Tigers and Demons. While the pilots had almost all celebrated a successful intercept, the hard data told a different story. The ready five Tigers had intercepted the Badgers fifteen seconds after the bombers had reached what Naval Intelligence thought was the maximum firing range of the Kennel. The Demons had only achieved lock on one minute after the Badgers had reached firing range.

If this had been the real thing, at least six and possibly as many as ten missiles would have been fired at the task group before any of the six attacking bombers could have been shot down. Admiral Shoech was convinced that the Navy had the tactics right: maintain a light CAP of interceptors above the fleet and use a deck launched intercept of supersonic fighters to nail any unexpected attackers or leakers that the CAP fighters missed or couldn't reach. Doing anything else, like maintaining a full BARCAP without being certain of an attack, one that would use more of his fighters and decrease their readiness rates, was just not sustainable outside of an actual war. That kind of constant flying wore down machines and crews too quickly to do in peacetime.

He had looked at the crews that flew the mission against the inbound Badgers. They had done everything they could possibly be expected to do to conduct a successful intercept. There was no fault to be found there. They flew exactly how they had been trained and had pushed the envelope as hard as they could. But it hadn't been enough.

He was left with only one answer. If the tactics were sound, and the crews were sound, then it had to be the equipment. The planes themselves just weren't good enough. Both the Tigers and the Demons had almost intercepted the aircraft in time. But almost wasn't good enough. It hadn't been real this time, and for that he was thankful. But, God forbid, if it ever was real, he and his men would be fighting for their lives and trying to save their ships from sinking after taking multiple missile hits. His report to his superiors was not going to be pleasant reading. He doubted that COMNAVAIRPAC was going to be very happy when he saw it.

His one and only consolation in regards to his air groups fighters was that new aircraft were coming. But would they get here fast enough to matter?

The next pile of documents he had to sift through to fill out his after action report had to do with the submarine that had penetrated the formation and "attacked" Albion. The Trackers from Yorktown had initially gotten lucky and found not one, but two, Soviet submarines. One of the boats had been successfully prosecuted and forced to admit by defeat by surfacing. They weren't sure what happened to the other boat.

Data tapes holding radar and sonar information would have to be dissected to determine if one of the two original boats had managed to slip away, or if there had been a third boat out there that they had completely missed. Either way, the results had been the same. The commie bastard had managed to reach firing position on Albion and launch. The fact that the offending boat had been "sunk" after was small consolation to the Royal Navy for the loss of a carrier and her crew. All in all, it had not been a good day for the American and British Navies.

 

[isayyo2]

Four story updates?

I feel spoiled!

 

[starviking]

Oooh! That made my month, at least.

Thanks SSgtC!

 

[Archibald]

"Dance of vampires" intensifies. Except vintage 1959 rather than 1986. And with much less bloodbath. Couldn't help thinking about that "other" Ticonderoga, no longer a carrier but an AEGIS cruiser.

Sure, AEGIS worked like clockwork, all 96 missiles of it. Bad luck, 140 missiles had been coming... oops !

I also wonder about B-59, you know, the submarine that nearly vaporized the planet during the Cuban missile crisis. Or so say the Internet Myth.

I do hope Albion having a (virtual) very bad time will shake the RN future carrier plans a bit. Then again, CVA-01 was so hopeless...

 

[SSgtC]

"Dance of vampires" intensifies. Except vintage 1959 rather than 1986. And with much less bloodbath. Couldn't help thinking about that "other" Ticonderoga, no longer a carrier but an AEGIS cruiser.

Sure, AEGIS worked like clockwork, all 96 missiles of it. Bad luck, 140 missiles had been coming... oops !

I also wonder about B-59, you know, the submarine that nearly vaporized the planet during the Cuban missile crisis. Or so say the Internet Myth.

I do hope Albion having a (virtual) very bad time will shake the RN future carrier plans a bit. Then again, CVA-01 was so hopeless...

The air threat is the easier one to deal with. The Crusader is finally hitting the fleet and VF squadrons are in the process of converting to it as they return from deployments. That gives the Navy a day fighter with Mach 1.8 performance over the Tiger's Mach 1.1 speed. The Phantom was just selected to replace the Demon and that gives the CVG a Mach 2.2 Sparrow armed interceptor. (As a side note, this also gives the RAN some ammunition to push Parliament for the funds to replace Melbourne with a carrier that can handle the Crusader III, giving them a Mach 2.5 Sparrow armed hotrod).

The sub threat is where things get dicey. The USN just concluded a series of ASW exercises with Nautilus. And she HUMILIATED the surface fleet. The entire ASW playbook had to be thrown out and rewritten to deal with nuclear boats. Here, a knock off German Type XXI that's 15 years out of date was able to penetrate the formation and "sink" a carrier. No one in command is going to be happy with what that says about their ASW tactics.

 

[starviking]

I do hope Albion having a (virtual) very bad time will shake the RN future carrier plans a bit. Then again, CVA-01 was so hopeless...

It could possibly have the RN moving back towards a stronger plane-based ASW component on its carriers.

As for CVA-01, sure it was a problematic programme - but that was as much to do with the UK government’s industrial policies and planning as the novel features in the design.

 

[SSgtC]

I do hope Albion having a (virtual) very bad time will shake the RN future carrier plans a bit. Then again, CVA-01 was so hopeless...

It could possibly have the RN moving back towards a stronger plane-based ASW component on its carriers.

As for CVA-01, sure it was a problematic programme - but that was as much to do with the UK government’s industrial policies and planning as the novel features in the design.

There's A LOT of lessons to be learned here. The question is, while the various services involved learn the right ones though?

To me, CVA-01 was a case of being penny wise and pound foolish. So many compromises were forced into the design that it was just a failure of a design. The UK could have easily built a ship that was roughly Midway sized at 60-65,000 tons full load and had a VERY potent air wing. Instead, they continually dicked around with the design, trying to shave as many pounds off the price as they could and ended up with a design that was just a total shit carrier. I mean really, "Doctrine says we need x-number of missile armed ships to defend the carrier. Hmmmm, that's expensive. I know! Let's make the carrier pull double duty and slap missiles on her at the expense of aircraft handling ability! Brilliant!" Ugh. Those designers should have been taken out behind the woodshed and shot

 

[starviking]

I do hope Albion having a (virtual) very bad time will shake the RN future carrier plans a bit. Then again, CVA-01 was so hopeless...

It could possibly have the RN moving back towards a stronger plane-based ASW component on its carriers.

There's A LOT of lessons to be learned here. The question is, while the various services involved learn the right ones though?

That’s true.

I wonder if we have any chance of seeing Majestic class ASW carriers in the RN, with modernized Centaurs getting a Hermes-esque treatment and staying as front-line fleet carriers.

I do hope Albion having a (virtual) very bad time will shake the RN future carrier plans a bit. Then again, CVA-01 was so hopeless...

As for CVA-01, sure it was a problematic programme - but that was as much to do with the UK government’s industrial policies and planning as the novel features in the design.

There's A LOT of lessons to be learned here. The question is, while the various services involved learn the right ones though?

To me, CVA-01 was a case of being penny wise and pound foolish. So many compromises were forced into the design that it was just a failure of a design. The UK could have easily built a ship that was roughly Midway sized at 60-65,000 tons full load and had a VERY potent air wing. Instead, they continually dicked around with the design, trying to shave as many pounds off the price as they could and ended up with a design that was just a total shit carrier. I mean really, "Doctrine says we need x-number of missile armed ships to defend the carrier. Hmmmm, that's expensive. I know! Let's make the carrier pull double duty and slap missiles on her at the expense of aircraft handling ability! Brilliant!" Ugh. Those designers should have been taken out behind the woodshed and shot

In defense of the designers, they did a pretty good job given the limits that were imposed on them: around 50,000 tons but the power of a Kitty Hawk. In its final design it could even accommodate F-111Bs. The deck-handling enabled by the Alaskan Highway was also innovative.

As for the Sea Darts - yup, they were big. But US carriers had also started adding MR SAMs, so the RN can hardly be faulted there.

Of course, if designers had been listened to, and politicians not so convinced that political massaging trumped reality, perhaps we could have gotten a more optimal CVA-01. More likely, we would have gotten a more optimal design that was still cancelled.

The whole CVA-01 debacle shows what happens when the pinnacle of political ability is thought to be a “classical education” from Oxbridge. British post-war industrial development was probably guided by the spirit of King Canute - trying to guide industry with wishes and targets, when something more solid, realistic, and educated was needed.

 

[SSgtC]

I wonder if we have any chance of seeing Majestic class ASW carriers in the RN, with modernized Centaurs getting a Hermes-esque treatment and staying as front-line fleet carriers.

Doubtful. Aircraft sizes are still increasing and those ships are still on the small side. And more than that, the UK just doesn't have the money to maintain a big carrier fleet much longer.

As for the Sea Darts - yup, they were big. But US carriers had also started adding MR SAMs, so the RN can hardly be faulted there.

It's not just that, it's where they mounted them. The US stuck their SAMs on sponsons to keep them clear of the flight deck. The UK cut away chunks of the flight and hanger deck to mount theirs.

 

[starviking]

I wonder if we have any chance of seeing Majestic class ASW carriers in the RN, with modernized Centaurs getting a Hermes-esque treatment and staying as front-line fleet carriers.

Doubtful. Aircraft sizes are still increasing and those ships are still on the small side. And more than that, the UK just doesn't have the money to maintain a big carrier fleet much longer.

Ultimately, it depends on what the UK government decides to prioritize, and perhaps if UK involvement in a major confrontation can be supported in some way, perhaps by MDAP-style funding through SEATO?

As for the carriers, Majestics and Colossi carried Trackers, Alizes, and Gannets through their long and varied carrier - with utility beyond the 60s. Whilst I can’t see a resurgence in RN fixed-wing ASW stymieing the move to a helicopter-focus, I can see them surviving 5 to 10 years longer - given the events of the last update.

As for the Sea Darts - yup, they were big. But US carriers had also started adding MR SAMs, so the RN can hardly be faulted there.

It's not just that, it's where they mounted them. The US stuck their SAMs on sponsons to keep them clear of the flight deck. The UK cut away chunks of the flight and hanger deck to mount theirs.

Originally the Sea Darts were on sponsons too, but the magazine requirements seem to have led to a bit of a Frankenstein set-up compared to the main Sea Dart system. My guess is that when the CVA-01’s system’s issues became clear there was nothing else to do but default to the baseline, and its deep vertical magazine - ruling out sponsons on a 50,000 + ton ship.

 

[bobtdwarf]

The thing about SeaDart is it is liquid fueled and from what I can gather the way the unit is sealed long term horizontal storage would lead to it leaking... they stored them just fine with no fuel in them horizontally.. but the ready to launch birds had to be vertical after fueling.

Maybe spend a little time and money fixing the sealing issue so you can launch from a horizontal magazine like the Terriers?

 

[SSgtC]

The thing about SeaDart is it is liquid fueled and from what I can gather the way the unit is sealed long term horizontal storage would lead to it leaking... they stored them just fine with no fuel in them horizontally.. but the ready to launch birds had to be vertical after fueling.

Maybe spend a little time and money fixing the sealing issue so you can launch from a horizontal magazine like the Terriers?

Terrier was solid fueled though, not liquid. To get Sea Dart to ditch the liquid fuel, you'd have to get rid of the Ramjet and go with just a straight rocket.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

To me, CVA-01 was a case of being penny wise and pound foolish. So many compromises were forced into the design that it was just a failure of a design. The UK could have easily built a ship that was roughly Midway sized at 60-65,000 tons full load and had a VERY potent air wing. Instead, they continually dicked around with the design, trying to shave as many pounds off the price as they could and ended up with a design that was just a total shit carrier. I mean really, "Doctrine says we need x-number of missile armed ships to defend the carrier. Hmmmm, that's expensive. I know! Let's make the carrier pull double duty and slap missiles on her at the expense of aircraft handling ability! Brilliant!" Ugh. Those designers should have been taken out behind the woodshed and shot

Sea Dart did not in any way shap or form impinge upon CVA-01's ability to operate aircraft. The magazine space in the transom stern did not reduce hanger volume, and aircraft could still test their engines over the stern from the rear section of the carrier.

The Royal Corps of Naval Constructors certainly had a significant amount of experience when it came to designing ships, and although there were several compromises in the design due to the 53,000 ton displacement limit, it was very a capable carrier.

 

[zen]

CVA-01 is not a bad design and frankly the product of very serious studies.
There are issues, but they are deeper than the actual design itself.

Doctrine was not flawed and Sea Dart installed on the Carrier wasn't an error or waste.
The waste turns out to be Type 988 Broomstick hampering the System, forcing Desertcar TIRs

 

[Hood]

I've always been intrigued what the effective firing arcs would have been however. At least the forward mount in the Invincibles allowed some measure of defence from ahead and beam attacks, I'm not sure the same was true for CVA-01.
Plus at some point someone was bound to land short and rip an arrestor hook off on it... sods law that would happen eventually.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

I've always been intrigued what the effective firing arcs would have been however. At least the forward mount in the Invincibles allowed some measure of defence from ahead and beam attacks, I'm not sure the same was true for CVA-01.

Are firing arcs that important for a guided missile launcher?

Shirley clear arcs for the air surveillance and target indicator radars are far more important.

Plus at some point someone was bound to land short and rip an arrestor hook off on it... sods law that would happen eventually.

An aircraft flying low enough to do that would crash into the stern. (I know you're comment was made in jest.)

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

To reinforce what @A Tentative Fleet Plan and @zen wrote. Is it not true that the main reason for the fantail was to provide a space for aircraft to test their engines? If that is true is the lost flight deck space offset by not having to take aircraft up from the hangar to the flight deck for engine tests and the resulting disruption to flying operations and the deck parks which would be the result?

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

To reinforce what @A Tentative Fleet Plan and @zen wrote. Is it not true that the main reason for the fantail was to provide a space for aircraft to test their engines? If that is true is the lost flight deck space offset by not having to take aircraft up from the hangar to the flight deck for engine tests and the resulting disruption to flying operations and the deck parks which would be the result?

There was space in CVA-01 to test aircraft engines (the diagram in Warship 2014 has an unfolded Buccaneer there) on the fantail, immediately to port of the Sea Dart launcher.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

To reinforce what @A Tentative Fleet Plan and @zen wrote. Is it not true that the main reason for the fantail was to provide a space for aircraft to test their engines? If that is true is the lost flight deck space offset by not having to take aircraft up from the hangar to the flight deck for engine tests and the resulting disruption to flying operations and the deck parks which would be the result?

There was space in CVA-01 to test aircraft engines (the diagram in Warship 2014 has an unfolded Buccaneer there) on the fantail, immediately to port of the Sea Dart launcher.

Do you mean this one?

​

Which came from Post 18 of this thread.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/british-carriers-commando-ships-and-escort-cruisers-1963-to-1968.1049/

 

[Archibald]

How would CVA-01 compare in capabilities ? upgraded Midway, a Forrestal or a Kitty Hawk ?

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Plus at some point someone was bound to land short and rip an arrestor hook off on it... sods law that would happen eventually.

Although you were writing in jest the "landing lane" seems to be well to the left of the Sea Dart launcher in the on-line illustrations of the ship.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

To reinforce what @A Tentative Fleet Plan and @zen wrote. Is it not true that the main reason for the fantail was to provide a space for aircraft to test their engines? If that is true is the lost flight deck space offset by not having to take aircraft up from the hangar to the flight deck for engine tests and the resulting disruption to flying operations and the deck parks which would be the result?

There was space in CVA-01 to test aircraft engines (the diagram in Warship 2014 has an unfolded Buccaneer there) on the fantail, immediately to port of the Sea Dart launcher.

Do you mean this one?

View attachment 680543​

Which came from Post 18 of this thread.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/british-carriers-commando-ships-and-escort-cruisers-1963-to-1968.1049/

Warship 2014 reproduces several plans of CVA-01, including a general arrangement of No 4 deck of the final design.

The actual plans in the National Maritime Museum themselves don't include the Buccaneer, but the space for engine testing can be clearly seen.

Plans for No. 3 deck (Upper hangar deck) for 'CVA01'

Scale 1:96Object number: NPD1854Date: 1965Artist: unknownDimensions: 792 mm x 3733 mm

prints.rmg.co.uk

Plans of No. 4 deck (Lower hangar deck) for 'CVA01'

Scale 1:96Object number: NPD1855Date: 1966Artist: unknownDimensions: 818 mm x 3720 mm

prints.rmg.co.uk

The image you've post shows the aircraft poking out of the back of the hangar, but there is enough space to wheel it entirely out of the hangar onto the fantail.

 

[SSgtC]

How would CVA-01 compare in capabilities ? upgraded Midway, a Forrestal or a Kitty Hawk ?

This is from Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt, but CVA-01 was planned to have an air wing of up to 50 aircraft, only 36 of which were "tactical" aircraft (Phantoms and Buccaneers). That would have made her the most powerful non-US carrier in the world. But even the Essex class would go to sea with bigger air wings (up to 70 total aircraft with 60 of them being fighter or attack crates). The Midway class would carry roughly the same number of aircraft as an Essex, but they had more capable types (Phantoms instead of Crusaders, swap an Intruder squadron for a Corsair squadron). Compared to a full up super carrier? Not even close. For reference, during her 69-70 Med cruise, Forrestal went to sea with 2xVF squadrons, 3xVA squadrons, 1xVAH squadron, and 1xRVAH squadron. She also carried a squadron of Hawkeyes and in a a first for an attack carrier, a squadron is SH-3 ASW helicopters.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Part of Post 1,071 with the last sentence emboldened by me.

Warship 2014 reproduces several plans of CVA-01, including a general arrangement of No 4 deck of the final design.

The actual plans in the National Maritime Museum themselves don't include the Buccaneer, but the space for engine testing can be clearly seen.

Plans for No. 3 deck (Upper hangar deck) for 'CVA01'

Scale 1:96Object number: NPD1854Date: 1965Artist: unknownDimensions: 792 mm x 3733 mm

prints.rmg.co.uk

Plans of No. 4 deck (Lower hangar deck) for 'CVA01'

Scale 1:96Object number: NPD1855Date: 1966Artist: unknownDimensions: 818 mm x 3720 mm

prints.rmg.co.uk

The image you've post shows the aircraft poking out of the back of the hangar, but there is enough space to wheel it entirely out of the hangar onto the fantail.

Yes. That's why I uploaded it.

The second plan shows that the Sea Dart launcher was offset well to right of the centreline. Have you any idea whether it was put on that side so that the tail hooks of landing aircraft couldn't hit it by accident?

 

[zen]

CVA-01 is designed around 4 days high intensity operations before replenishment.
From my memory....
CAS of 8 by 1,000lb bombs per 2 ship flight (4 by 1,000lb per plane) in support of 1.5hr contacts (1.5 sorties per hour in 12 hours)...approximately 64 Such bombs per day. Assuming 50% success rate.
Assuming 3 close range contacts per hour required 6 sorties per hour or 4 aircraft aloft per (48 aircraft hours per day).

While maintaining 4 aloft CAP continuously and 1 AEW.
In this she would operate with a second carrier to provide the full Tactical Air Unit of 96 aircraft.

Such aircraft were initially expected to be 64 Buccaneer and 32 Phantom II.
It was expected in 4 days to burn 2500tons of aviation fuel.

 

[zen]

Distribution of Sea Dart is driven by the spacing of fleet assets in order to prevent a single nuclear strike disabling the fleet.
Thus it was necessary for as many Sea Dart equipped ships as possible.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

How would CVA-01 compare in capabilities ? upgraded Midway, a Forrestal or a Kitty Hawk ?

Here's one I made earlier.



It's arranged by waterline length.

What the above table doesn't show is lifts and catapults.

• CVA.01 had two steam catapults and 2 lifts.
• CVV had two steam catapults and 2 lifts.
• Midway in her SCB.101.66 configuration had 2 steam catapults and 3 lifts.
• All American super carriers from the Forrestal to Nimitz classes had 4 catapults and 4 lifts.

CVA.01 was roughly comparable to Midway after her SCB.101 refit and the CVV design.

As an aside the displacement for PA58 looks too low to me. That is, it's longer than Malta and nearly as beamy but only displaces 35,000 tons.

 

[CV12Hornet]

How would CVA-01 compare in capabilities ? upgraded Midway, a Forrestal or a Kitty Hawk ?

CVA-01 is a little smaller and thus less capacious than a Midway, but being of post-WW2 origins means she has a lot fewer compromises with regards to things like hanger height. So overall matches well with a Midway.

Thoroughly outclassed by a Forrestal or Kitty Hawk, naturally.

Midway in her SCB.101.66 configuration had 2 steam catapults and 2 lifts.

Correction: Midway had three lifts.

This is from Wikipedia, so take it with a grain of salt, but CVA-01 was planned to have an air wing of up to 50 aircraft, only 36 of which were "tactical" aircraft (Phantoms and Buccaneers). That would have made her the most powerful non-US carrier in the world. But even the Essex class would go to sea with bigger air wings (up to 70 total aircraft with 60 of them being fighter or attack crates). The Midway class would carry roughly the same number of aircraft as an Essex, but they had more capable types (Phantoms instead of Crusaders, swap an Intruder squadron for a Corsair squadron). Compared to a full up super carrier? Not even close. For reference, during her 69-70 Med cruise, Forrestal went to sea with 2xVF squadrons, 3xVA squadrons, 1xVAH squadron, and 1xRVAH squadron. She also carried a squadron of Hawkeyes and in a a first for an attack carrier, a squadron is SH-3 ASW helicopters.

In fairness to CVA-01, she would be operating significantly larger aircraft than those Essex airwings (Phantoms and Buccaneers versus Crusaders and Skyhawks/Corsairs), as well as the fact that both the Essexes and Midways were somewhat overstuffed with aircraft in those configurations.

 

[NOMISYRRUC]

Correction: Midway had three lifts.

I knew already!

Because I got the reference books out and checked. The typo was noticed and corrected before reading the above.

However, you didn't notice "All American super carriers from the Forrestal to Midway classes had 4 catapults and 4 lifts" from the same post.

 

[Cjc]

I wonder if the duch or Australians loses a carrier to the Indonesian tu-16 wether that would convince the usn to panic/focus a lot on the f6d missileer maby have this http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0355385
Kind of report come out a decade erly, and convince the usn that the phantom (or f8u-3) arnt very good against the threat posed by the new Russian missiles.

 

[SSgtC]

In fairness to CVA-01, she would be operating significantly larger aircraft than those Essex airwings (Phantoms and Buccaneers versus Crusaders and Skyhawks/Corsairs), as well as the fact that both the Essexes and Midways were somewhat overstuffed with aircraft in those configurations.

No argument here. Just wanted to point out that, for her size, she was planned to have an extremely small air wing. 50 total aircraft, with only 36 usable for strike or A2A roles. For the era when she would be entering service, she would be significantly under-armed in terms of air wing.

I'm assuming that the small size of the air wing was done intentionally for two reasons: first, save money on not having to buy an extra 30+ aircraft for the two carriers. And second, that the FAA assumed aircraft sizes would continue to grow and CVA-01 would have the space to board the next generation of aircraft and still keep 50 planes in her air wing.