Chinese aircraft carriers: Type 002 'Shandong', Type 003 'Fujian', Type 004

Archibald said:
I often appreciate the USN pragmatism before CVN-68 Nimitz.
1-They first defined a "supercarrier template" with CVA-59 Forrestal.
2-Then they improved it with the Kitty Hawks.
3-Before a first try (not conclusive enough) with Enterprise.
4-So back to a pair of conventional carriers (America & JFK)
5-before second try with CVN-68: Nimitz.
6-Once they got the Nimitz recipe - a decent nuclear carrier - they build only them and ten of them.
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Wouldn't describe US carrier design as pragmatic, quite the opposite, it started out as a war emergency crash program, the US ordered a single carrier every fiscal year from FY52 up until Enterprise in FY58, whose great cost forced a temporary stop to carrier production until FY61 when America was ordered as a conventional carrier for cost reasons. JFK was ordered in FY63, again as a conventional carrier for cost reasons, but between 1958 and 1962 numerous attempts were made to design smaller and cheaper nuclear carriers, as well a attempts in 1954 to design improved conventional carriers, but the various Forrestal-derived SCB 127 preserved, impart because many of the improvements of the other designs could be accommodated.

BlackBat242 said:
CVA-67 JFK was ordered April 1964 as CVAN-67, with 4 A3W reactors, but the design was reverted to 8 oil-fueled boilers before her keel was laid in October 1964 - mainly for financial reasons.

Due to her planned propulsion there were a lot of changes both internally and externally - even after reverting to a conventional propulsion plant many of the other changes remained (to reduce redesign time and cost).
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The Nuclear and Conventional designs were developed concurrently alongside each other. As far as I'm aware JFK was never ordered as anything other than a conventional carrier, the nuclear alternative designs died circa January-February 1962 prior to the ship being ordered.

Internal and external changes came about for multiple reasons, for example JFK got a more compact torpedo defence system designed originally for the SCB-211A small CVAN, to greatly increase volume available for aircraft ordnance and JP5. The choice to rearrange the machinery spaces in the conventional SCB-127C design was made in November 1961, not as a result of any mid-construction change from a CVAN into a CVA.
 
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I wonder if the nuclear Type 005 would be slightly bigger than the conventional Type 004 due to the fact that is going to be nuclear powered? Though it will depend on how many reactors the PLAN chooses for the carrier.
 
FighterJock said:
I wonder if the nuclear Type 005 would be slightly bigger than the conventional Type 004 due to the fact that is going to be nuclear powered? Though it will depend on how many reactors the PLAN chooses for the carrier.
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A carrier has an advantage over a submarine, in that you don't have to miniaturize things so far. You're not trying to pack everything into a 10-12m diameter pipe. You have at least 1/4 the waterline beam of the ship, and can go taller than 3 decks if you need to. Plus, that would area is a flat box, not a cylinder laying on its side!

So I'm sure the Chinese goal is 2 reactors. And I'd wait till I had two reactors of the required power level before I started building the CVN, rather than getting 8 or 4 reactors for one ship.
 
That is why I always thought that the PLAN should take their time over the Type 005 and try to let the technology for the nuclear reactors shrink down to a level where they can put two into the carrier without the need to make the carrier any bigger than it otherwise should be.
 
sferrin said:
The QE2 class would like a word.
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Does a 65kton ship count as a supercarrier?

Well, they counted the Forrestal-class as a supercarrier at 60k, so I guess so. But the QE class has an absolutely pathetic air wing, and doesn't have catapults.

Does 36x F35s and maybe 8x helicopters max count as a supercarrier air wing? How about 24x F35s and ~16x helicopters for typical operations?

Because the Fujian is looking to carry 24x J15, 4x J15D EW planes, 12x J35s, plus 4x AEW planes and 12x helicopters. Total air wing of 56. And those are 56 big aircraft!
 
Scott Kenny said:
But the QE class has an absolutely pathetic air wing, and doesn't have catapults.
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Josh_TN said:
Similar displacement, but I would argue the lack of cats make it significantly less flexible.
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I suspect that some time in the not too distant future the QE would undergo a refit installing catapults, it does have structural provisions for that.
 
NMaude said:
That may change given that NATO appears to be entering a second Cold War with Russia.
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If the UK has the extra coin, that will not be where it spends it. There is a lot of cost savings associated with only using STOVL aircraft for training purposes, and the single biggest thing a catapult would enable - E-2Ds - is itself an incredibly pricey item the RN likely cannot afford in meaningful numbers. Best to keep what they have and invest in other capabilities.
 
If the UK's annual defence spending is returning to Cold War levels then they may get the funding needed.
 
NMaude said:
If the UK's annual defence spending is returning to Cold War levels then they may get the funding needed.
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It is not and they won’t. The NHS is operating basically at third world medics levels at this point and the Tories are screwed, justifiably so.
 
CV12Hornet said:
The Forrestals are 60,000 at standard, the QEs are 65,000 at full. At full-load the Forrestals are 81,000.
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I hadn't seen that specified, and everywhere else people (including the Brits) have talked about ships it's been at standard/light load.

But yes, dimensionally the QEs are Midways. A bit more beam, a bit more draft, a bit more length. (121m 37m*2m*284m, less fairing, plus another 10x37x10, wait, those numbers are not looking right... )

Edit: Hrm, even after getting everything metric, that's a good 3700 tons more than a Midway in the length increase plus a good 10,000 tons more in the extra width and draft. I dunno, @CV12Hornet , looks like the QEs really could be 65k standard displacement...
 
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FighterJock said:
That is what I was thinking F.L. then the Shenyang J-35 after the J-15 completes a few cat and traps to try out the arrestor and catapult system.
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Will a new version of J-15 be needed for cat launch? Was the aircraft’s nose gear designed for that stress level when first fielded?
 
Josh_TN said:
Will a new version of J-15 be needed for cat launch? Was the aircraft’s nose gear designed for that stress level when first fielded?
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They should be trying the cat version of J-15 for several years, and it should be quite mature to be fielded first, when compare with J-35
 
SK2 said:
They should be trying the cat version of J-15 for several years, and it should be quite mature to be fielded first, when compare with J-35
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No doubt, but was a new version required or was it always designed with eventual cat use in mind?
 
Josh_TN said:
No doubt, but was a new version required or was it always designed with eventual cat use in mind?
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It's been around for a long while...

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Here's an artist's impression
https://twitter.com/x/status/1781207438139515276
View: https://x.com/RupprechtDeino/status/1781207438139515276


Check Huitong's blog for mostly reliable, up-to-date info
https://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/p/fighters-ii.html

Screenshot 2024-05-08 152041.png
 

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The new one looks like a wholly new development. The EW variant is particularly interesting. These new aircraft carriers with just upgraded flying sharks, awacs and helicopters will be very dangerous. I hope these developments are lighting a fire under the butts of the politicians dressed as generals and admirals. Time is still on our side but the Chinese sure are shrinking that time envelope.
 

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