China building Ulyanovsk-class aircraft carrier?

Triton

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Is China building an Ulyanovsk-class (Project 1153 OREL) aircraft carrier?

Source:
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=691

According to china.org.cn, the United States recently acquired satellite imagery showing an aircraft carrier currently being assembled in military shipyard of Shanghai.

China's current and only aircraft carrier was recently delivered to the Chinese navy and training in air operations has just started.

According to china.org.cn, the United States recently acquired satellite imagery showing an aircraft carrier currently being assembled in military shipyard of Shanghai. China's current and only aircraft carrier was recently delivered to the Chinese navy and training has just started.

The new aircraft carrier supposedly in construction would be the first home made carrier for the nation. However according to other reports, China would have acquired blue prints from Soviet aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk. Ulyanovsk was the first of a class of never completed Soviet nuclear-powered aircraft carriers.

The vessel would have been 85,000 tons in displacement and would have been able to carry up to 70 fixed-wing carrier aircraft. Ulyanovsk had a unique design: It would have been fitted with both steam catapults and ski-ramp in order to launch those aircraft.

According to china.org.cn, the new aircraft carrier currently in construction in Shanghai could be based on the Ulyanovsk.
 

chuck4

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China has never built a nuclear powered surface ship. She has only built nuclear submarines in which she has never shown enough confidence to send onto any extended patrols. Nuclear submarine power plants are far too small for use on a 85000 ton carrier. The Chinese have generally been very conservative with new technology, taking a long time in prototype for to iron out all bugs prior to large scale production.


So I doubt her first domestic built carrier will risk a nuclear power plant. In any case, nuclear power in carriers doesn't fit well with china's access denial strategy.
 

kaiserbill

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chuck4 said:
China has never built a nuclear powered surface ship. She has only built nuclear submarines in which she has never shown enough confidence to send onto any extended patrols. Nuclear submarine power plants are far too small for use on a 85000 ton carrier. The Chinese have generally been very conservative with new technology, taking a long time in prototype for to iron out all bugs prior to large scale production.


So I doubt her first domestic built carrier will risk a nuclear power plant. In any case, nuclear power in carriers doesn't fit well with china's access denial strategy.

It wouldn't need to be nuclear powered.
The Ulyanovsk weighed in at 80 000t, and was in all respects, whether displacement, length, breadth, draught, aircraft carried, extremely similar in size to the USS Kitty Hawk, or indeed the Forrestal Class, which were conventionally powered carriers.
The Kitty Hawks steam turbines pushed out 280 000hp, the Forrestal 260 000hp.
We have no idea what the current propulsion unit being used in the Liaoning, which is China's recommissioned Kuznetsov class carrier, but the original units were steam turbines generating 200 000hp.
I suppose installing the Kuznetsov poweplant, boosted by a gas turbine set (COGAS) would provide sufficient power, for catapults inclusive.
I personally think that China's next carrier or 2 will be based on the Kuznetsov design, with small changes perhaps. Thereafter will come slightly bigger carriers perhaps.
Of course, I'm guessing here, like everybody else.
 

SlowMan

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Stretching the Varyag would't be too hard.

Adding a catapult to a stretched Varyag would be.

As for the powerplant, I bet they would be conventional gas turbines, as China doesn't have reliable naval nuclear reactors. The ones in China's nuclear submarines are unreliable so this is why China's nuclear subs hardly sail to the sea, and don't go very far when they do.
 

Triton

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"China planning 110,000-ton 'super aircraft carrier' to rival US naval power"
Published time: December 22, 2013

Source:
http://rt.com/news/china-super-aircraft-carrier-634/

Following Washington’s move to increase its military footprint in Asia, China has declared it is building a nuclear-powered aircraft carrier of a size to compete with the mightiest in the US naval fleet.

Chinese website qianzhan.com, citing top sources in the People's Liberation Army, said China’s first domestically produced aircraft carrier should be launched by 2020.

"By that time, China will be able to confront the most advanced US carrier-based fighter jets in high sea," the Chinese-language article reads.

The announcement comes amid heightened tensions in the region, aggravated by Washington’s recent decision to increase its military might in and around the East China Sea.

In September, the US Navy's first littoral combat ship, USS Freedom, arrived in Singapore to start its eight-month deployment in Southeast Asia.

Meanwhile, Japan this week contributed to regional rhetoric when it announced a robust boost in defense spending over the next five years. Under the plan adopted Tuesday, Japan will purchase new military hardware, including its first surveillance drones, US-made F-35 stealth fighters and Aegis combat systems, a move that triggered a sharp response from China.

China "resolutely opposes" Japan’s defense plan, Defense Ministry spokesman Geng Yansheng said in a statement posted on the ministry's website.

Japan is making an effort to ensure the security and prosperity of the international community, but at the same time it is clinging to a Cold War mentality and beefing up its military alliance with relevant countries, he said.

Thus far, tensions in the region have been limited to a harmless display of saber-rattling, but there have been some near misses.

On Dec. 5, the USS Cowpens, a guided missile cruiser, nearly collided with China's first aircraft carrier, the Liaoning, a refurbished Soviet-era ship purchased from Ukraine.

Although Beijing and Washington diplomats attempted to play down the incident, one analyst told the Christian Science Monitor that the event carried a warning from the Chinese.

“The Chinese are trying to make it clear that, if the US wants to operate in these waters, then it should be prepared to be operating under a high state of tension,” said Dean Cheng, senior research fellow for Chinese political and security affairs at the Heritage Foundation. “If the US doesn’t want tension, then it’s very simple: leave.”

China's first domestically built aircraft carrier will be a larger version of Liaoning. The design is reportedly based on drafts of a Soviet-era, nuclear-powered, 80,000 ton vessel capable of carrying 60 aircraft.

China has made some dramatic technological breakthroughs of late.

In January, 2011, China conducted a test flight of a new stealth fighter jet, the J-20, on the same day that former US Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates was in Beijing for talks.

China has also demonstrated remarkable technical ability beyond purely military pursuits. Just this month, China became the third country, behind the United States and the Soviet Union, to put an unmanned spacecraft on the Moon.
 

Antonio

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Interesting. China thinks that Super Carrier Era is not yet close to its end.
 

Triton

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pometablava said:
Interesting. China thinks that Super Carrier Era is not yet close to its end.

The supercarrier is a symbol of power and the People's Republic of China wants to be seen as a superpower. I also wonder if the People's Republic of China plans on some power projection in the future and will engage in expeditionary warfare.
 

Triton

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I've read that the behavior of the People's Republic of China and India can be explained as imitating the United States and the former Soviet Union. A superpower has a manned space program, nuclear weapons, nuclear-powered submarines, and aircraft carriers.
 

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Shouldn't they bother learning (then perfecting) how to conduct flight operations from the one CV that have before they bother worrying about another, let alone a nuclear propelled one? Granted they have experience building nuke subs but a nuke CV? Who's going to help them? I'm all for forward thinking and planning ahead and the like but it seems they need to slow down a bit.
 

kaiserbill

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CliffyB said:
Shouldn't they bother learning (then perfecting) how to conduct flight operations from the one CV that have before they bother worrying about another, let alone a nuclear propelled one? Granted they have experience building nuke subs but a nuke CV? Who's going to help them? I'm all for forward thinking and planning ahead and the like but it seems they need to slow down a bit.

Let's do a little excercise.


The USS Nautilus was laid down in 1951, only about 8 years after the first nuclear reactor (in a laboratory) achieved the first self sustaining chain reaction.
The first of the follow on Skate Class was laid down in 1955.
The next Skipjack class in 1956.
The USS Enterprise was laid down in 1958.


Now.

Chinas first nuclear submarine was launched in 1970.
Their Xia class SSBN entered service in 1981.
Their Shang class SSN was launched in 2002.
Their new Jin class SSBN was launched in 2004.
China's first civil nuclear reactor was from 1991.

Their carrier conducted it's first trials over 2 years ago and has been in commission for over a year already.
Aircraft trials and training on the actual carrier have been ongoing since 2012.
Last month the carrier departed with two destroyers and two frigates on another extended training mission.
2020 is still a way off.

So, I think it's rather a stretch, this perception that they're racing ahead, and need to slow down.
A lot of this is media driven scare mongering.


They have already begun operating aircraft from their training carrier, so it looks as if they are "bothering" to learn.
They also had that full-scale land based training facility.
The truth is, we are not privy to what is going on behind the scenes, nor on their "percieved" lack of proficiency.

I also wouldn't put too much credence into websites "citing PLA sources" too seriously.

What we do know is that they have a carrier, are training with it, developing naval aircraft, and clearly want more.
Whether these will be conventional or nuclear, time will tell.
I suspect conventional first, seeing as China doesn't see the need to intervene outside of its neighbourhood.

There is a tendency to see Chinese developments through the prism of western eyes in relation to competitiveness, yet it is far more likely they are doing the logical thing of keeping pace with developments in the neighbourhood.
A second carrier in the 2020 timeframe would be nicely timed wrt their neighbour India's indigineous INS Vikrant enetering service, meaning India would have in around 2020 two carriers in the INS Vikramaditya, and INS Vikrant.

So, in my opinion, they do not need to slow down a bit.
They're moving at a rational pace.
 

Deino

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via "Blitzo" /SDF) and again via
... these were supposedly taken at the Zhongshan Navy Exhibition, the same place where the 032 SSB model and the trimaran MSA cutter were taken, so it's possible that this carrier model is very authentic.





Dia5W9b.jpg



Y2B9mfi.jpg



3UuwJS9.jpg



gWT3YOT.jpg



--



Elements of this model were present on some CGIs from a while ago, so it is very possible that the original artist of the CGIs (who is not uncredible) had seen elements of the final carrier design.
Of course, I'm referring to the island specifically, but things like the elevators, catapult positioning, etc are also indicative



2hpocc3.jpg



2bd76c.jpg



--


Whatever the case, this model definitely shows a supercarrier in the nimitz/ford ballpark. Is it legit?
Well... I'd cautiously veer on the side of yes.
 

Deino

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;) ;)

http://china-defense.blogspot.de/2014/06/chinese-nuclear-powered-aircraft.html

Deino
 

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A Xian JH-7 as a carrier aircraft ! Were there other indications, or even tests for that use ?
 

Hot Breath

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And what are the AEW aircraft intended to represent?

I'm also interested by the vehicles on the flight deck of the physical model. Fuel tankers?
 

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Torpedo tubes on an aircraft carrier? Okay. . .I guess it's original. Unlike the rest of the design, aside from the white paint.
 

Deino

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I think we should not take these CG's too seriously ... indeed a JH-7 off a carrier is as stupid as these torpedoe launchers ... they are shurely made by overenthusiastic enthusiasts ;) based on the reports & rumours they get. However the model seems indeed to be something special .... if it is however the true 002-design or only a hint of "in what direction" the PLAN is heading .... I don't know right now.


As such I like these images but until any hard facts become known ... it will sit back with a cup of tea and wait.


Deino
 

sferrin

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Deino said:
I think we should not take these CG's too seriously ... indeed a JH-7 off a carrier is as stupid as these torpedoe launchers ... they are shurely made by overenthusiastic enthusiasts ;) based on the reports & rumours they get. However the model seems indeed to be something special .... if it is however the true 002-design or only a hint of "in what direction" the PLAN is heading .... I don't know right now.


As such I like these images but until any hard facts become known ... it will sit back with a cup of tea and wait.


Deino

Consider this:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,809.msg44220.html#msg44220

And it never went anywhere. ;)
 

sferrin

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Triton said:
Jemiba said:
A Xian JH-7 as a carrier aircraft ! Were there other indications, or even tests for that use ?

The Xian JH-7 bears a strong resemblance to the North American A-5 Vigilante.

True, they both have single vertical tails and a pointy end up front. Aside from that though. . .
 

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Perhaps the tubes would be for hard kill torpedo defense. Some western Torpedoes IIRC have an anti-torpedo capability.
 

Jemiba

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Deino said:
I think we should not take these CG's too seriously ...
I agree with Deino, not only seems this deck park to consist of nearly all current Chinese
aircraft types, but the models seem not to be to the same scale, too, to my opinion.
The JH-7 actually is quite a big aircraft, but I doubt, that it really would dwarf, what looks
like a J-20, not to mention that AEW type !
 

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