Challenger 3

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And the link is?
And the file is?
And the author is?
And the date is?
 
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Good feedback folks!

uk 75 Challenger exists and has certain features which suit a country only operating a small number of tanks. It is cheaper to operate than Abrams and more rugged than Leopard.
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Then you've already answered your own question :) Proceed with Challenger 3 upgrades and happily pay the costs of operating a distinct variant with no opportunity for individual replacements. And, in making such a decision, ignore all previous worries re: lack of commonality with NATO allies.


zen Note that Norwegian trials showed little difference between K2 and Leo2. That K2 was cheaper and Leo2 chosen for other political (European) reasons. Even if that will cost Norway more.....and probably arrive late.
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It'd be interesting to know what those "political (European) reasons" were. None of the usual EU pressures apply to Norway. I suspect that a more 'local' parts supply was one issue. Would it have been any different had K2 production already been underway in Poland? Maybe not.

Cost: Not a deal-breaker for a nation with a sovereign wealth fund worth USD 1.4 trillion. But, as other Leopard operators have recently discovered, there are other issues with buying German. For those tempted, I'd suggest a quick look at their Bundessicherheitsrat (Federal Security Council) whose decisions are actually at the whim of the Bundeskanzler (or, in the current case, his Chef des Bundeskanzleramts).

Elan Vital Also seriously, comparing free export to a Ukraine at war with peacetime sales to the UK, a long-time NATO ally?
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The two issues are not unrelated. Whitehall exercised its option to donate Challenger 2s to Ukraine at war. It would not have had that freedom of action as a Leopard operator. As recent events have shown, transferring German-made equipment to Ukraine is a lot more time-consuming and politically-complicated.

Of course, most armaments-making nations put some kind of restrictions on the re-export of such weapons. But most are bureaucratic amateurs compared to the Kriegswaffenkontrollgesetz (Weapons of War Control Act) under the BDR's Außenwirtschaftsgesetz (Foreign Trade Act). (If you're okay with all that red-tape, buy German - my country did).

It matters whether potential foreign suppliers will hamstring re-exports. But it matters to policy-makers not to the military (who, by definition, are losing re-exported assets). So, the real question here is: who is likely to insist upon such stringent controls? We know the Germans will. US FMS is not exactly an easy process either. But what about South Korea or Poland as licencee? It is worth asking.
 
breakingdefense.com

Revealed: First look at UK's Challenger 3 main battle tank prototype - Breaking Defense

“The Challenger 3 program will deliver the best tank in NATO ... and deliver a network enabled, digital main battle tank, providing the soldier with a step changing capability," said Rory Breen, strategy and future business director at RBSL.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com

IMG_4867-e1705954840202.jpg
 
GTX said:
breakingdefense.com

Revealed: First look at UK's Challenger 3 main battle tank prototype - Breaking Defense

“The Challenger 3 program will deliver the best tank in NATO ... and deliver a network enabled, digital main battle tank, providing the soldier with a step changing capability," said Rory Breen, strategy and future business director at RBSL.
breakingdefense.com breakingdefense.com

IMG_4867-e1705954840202.jpg
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THe image in this article is weirdly distorted. Here's a better version.

1706032968958.png

From:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1749506052717006945
View: https://twitter.com/Rivet_Counter/status/1749506052717006945
 
Apophenia said:
It'd be interesting to know what those "political (European) reasons" were. None of the usual EU pressures apply to Norway. I suspect that a more 'local' parts supply was one issue. Would it have been any different had K2 production already been underway in Poland? Maybe not.
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There is some stuff out there on Norway's assessments and decisions.
EU and Germany does have a sizable influence on Norwegian politics and politicians.
Fortunately the Norwegian people keep them in check for the moment.

Apophenia said:
Cost: Not a deal-breaker for a nation with a sovereign wealth fund worth USD 1.4 trillion.
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What a statement, I think you will find Norwegians care about value for money just like most people do.
 
BTW one should take care with documents that justify a failure to sell a product to a country.
The people involved have careers on the line potentially for the sums involved.
And should remember how influential lobbying and Party donations can be.

So an American document, describing for other Americans why they failed to get the UK to ditch it's own tank design and production for American tanks....
Is potentially rife with various biases and posturing for personal reasons as much as both the truth and the knowledge this is getting declassified eventually and read by other Americans.

To paraphrase "don't sack me! our kits wonderful obviously, but those pesky Brits opted for lousy domestic (unAmerican) kit just to keep up their lousy industry. Seriously I've got Brits telling me how great our product is and it's only those evil politicians who screwed us out of all that lovely money. Which we obviously deserve!"

It's not like I haven't encountered dubious British 'reports' that are essentially a massive arse covering exercise and some which are structured to justify the authors preference.
 
zen said:
What a statement, I think you will find Norwegians care about value for money just like most people do.
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Right, but it's not like Norway is stuck at UK levels of "we can't afford to actually build a new tank so we're just going to build a new turret".

If the capabilities offered by K2s were seen as attractive enough, Norway could buy a whole lot of them at "Made in Korea and shipped across two oceans" prices, probably $10milUS/tank, not counting spare parts and training costs.
 
If it were sent to any unit without a BV, there would be a mutiny an immediate RTB and heads would roll. I honestly believe that any other liquid than water for the powdered tea (Circa 1943, a gooood vintage) would curdle the next brew which is not good news for the operator who makes it.
 
https://twitter.com/x/status/1996530399141302523
View: https://x.com/totherchris/status/1996530399141302523?s=61


We can infer a great deal from the Question on Challenger 3 (CR3) timelines made in Parliament this week.

The key phrase in the answer is "securing the necessary materials" and "mitigating risk".

Allow me to translate.

In a new-build, materials have been sourced at this point in a programme.

"Securing materials" is a phrase that also been used in the context of Type 23 and Nimrod MRA.4 this far down a programme involving significant refurb.

It likely means Challenger 2 hulls.

The numbers and state that the hull supplier has to work with must be low and poor condition.

"Mitigating risk" is another phrase used previously, this time in context of the MAA referring to the lack of CAD documentation for MRA.4 fuselages and necessitating a Risk Reduction exercise.

It likely means the CR2 hulls are pre-CAD in the modern sense and likely sport unique differences or tolerances hull-to-hull, due to a lack of precision manufacture in the late 80's / early 90's era tooling.

We can combine this inference with news coming out of Curtiss-Wright on contract modifications from Rheinmetall related to the Turret Drive Servo System (TDSS).

It likely means the pre-CAD era non-precision CR2 hulls being refurbished have unique turret rings, or rings with a greater than expected tolerance, requiring individual fitting.

Personal opinion is CR3 will also need a "come to Jesus" moment of self reflection, and source a new-design / precision-built hull before we dive too far down the turret ring rabbit hole and carry on struggling with coach-built era MBT's for the next 20-30 years.
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Personal opinion is CR3 will also need a "come to Jesus" moment of self reflection, and source a new-design / precision-built hull before we dive too far down the turret ring rabbit hole and carry on struggling with coach-built era MBT's for the next 20-30 years.
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At this point might as well adept the Challenger 3 turret for a modified Leopard 2 hull, or just go all in on the Leopard tbh
 
EmoBirb said:
At this point might as well adept the Challenger 3 turret for a modified Leopard 2 hull, or just go all in on the Leopard tbh
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Or Abrams, K1, or even K2 chassis.

I'm sure the Americans would love to sell off a few of those old 105mm Abrams hulls.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Or Abrams, K1, or even K2 chassis.

I'm sure the Americans would love to sell off a few of those old 105mm Abrams hulls.
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I think American options are less attractive than German or as you proposed Korean options for that matter.
 
EmoBirb said:
I think American options are less attractive than German or as you proposed Korean options for that matter.
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Entirely possible. I'd imagine that the Korean options, at least the K2, would have current CAD files. German option probably does.
 
Well we were a observer on Main Ground Combat System.
But it's highly likely MGCS is another Franco-German disaster.

So if we want a tank to fit our needs, one ought to look at either Turkey's or Poland's licensed and adapted K2 Black Panther.
Which I note Norway nearly bought, but opted for Leo2 for strategic partnership reasons.

But I also know there is a significant UK camp advocating for Leo2 hulls with UK turrets and were suggesting hull manufacturing in the UK to give Rheinmetal a non-EU source for exports outside of German restrictions.

However full independence would require the full resurrection of what is the still available industry. Which surprisingly is still much more extensively available than the media might have you believe.
 
zen said:
So if we want a tank to fit our needs, one ought to look at either Turkey's or Poland's licensed and adapted K2 Black Panther.
Which I note Norway nearly bought, but opted for Leo2 for strategic partnership reasons.
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Norway bought Leopard 2 because it was a better tank with superior protection to the K2. Given previous UK designs, the UK opts for better protection, and the Leopard 2 is far closer to meeting those than K2.
 

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