Bristol Type 192C for BEA

[GT6Boy]

I found this on Fleabay the other day- delighted to happen across it. I'd be interested to hear thoughts on the likelihood of this coming to fruition.
I believe BEA were getting cold feet regarding the Rotodyne at this stage and Westland were trying hard to push the Belvedere derivative as a less risky option. Clearly Westland were keen to harness the knowledge and experience gained from the former Bristol Helicopter team at Oldmixon, who had come into the fold through the recent Westland takeover. iirc, the fusalage of one of the Type 173 mk3 airframes was used as a mock-up for the 192C cabin too?

 

[uk 75]

The BEA Bristol 173 is available as an old Dinky Toys from 1960 or so

 

[JohnR]

Are their any large helicopter services in the UK, excluding the oil rig services there seemed to be lots of plans for them in the 50's and 60's but very little seems to have come of it. I have read that there was a plan in the 50's to build a heliport over Victoria Railway station, which obviously didn't come about

 

[Hood]

I would say the chances were probably small for BEA use by 1960, as you say they had Rotodyne to contend with and by then Bristol itself had moved on and was looking at the Type 194 as a more optimised passenger-carrying helicopter.
But this is a very nice find nevertheless, the passenger seating on the sidewalls facing inwards is quite novel for a passenger aircraft - of course passengers in British trains of the time faced each other. I suppose the slightly canted seats were to give a modicum of view outside, would have been pretty claustrophobic I think otherwise.

 

[GT6Boy]

Are their any large helicopter services in the UK, excluding the oil rig services there seemed to be lots of plans for them in the 50's and 60's but very little seems to have come of it. I have read that there was a plan in the 50's to build a heliport over Victoria Railway station, which obviously didn't come about

There was the early use of the former Festival of Britain site on the South Bank as a temporary site from 1952 onwards but I don't think a formal BEA service was ran from there(to and from Heathrow) until 1955. This ran along the length of the Thames, to avid the single types operating over London, as it were. That was culled in 1956. The Westland Heliport at Battersea was opened in 1959.
BEA instigated a surpring number of attempts at Helicopter trunks routes around the country- seems the lessons learned was that this wasn't cost effective as compared to fixed wing operation.
1970 saw a revisiting of a central London Heliport, but that didn't get any further iirc?

 

[GT6Boy]

I would say the chances were probably small for BEA use by 1960, as you say they had Rotodyne to contend with and by then Bristol itself had moved on and was looking at the Type 194 as a more optimised passenger-carrying helicopter.
But this is a very nice find nevertheless, the passenger seating on the sidewalls facing inwards is quite novel for a passenger aircraft - of course passengers in British trains of the time faced each other. I suppose the slightly canted seats were to give a modicum of view outside, would have been pretty claustrophobic I think otherwise.

Perhaps Westland could see the likely demise of the very elaborate Rotodyne, and were hedging their bets somewhat, in-line with their somewhat more cautious modus operandi, regarding licenced production.

 

[GT6Boy]

The 192C by then was looking even more like a sticking plaster design, as compared to the 194/193 designs which would have been altogether more fit for purpose, albeit bringing their own levels of further financial risk in bringing to service. Looking at how the civil helicopter market proceeded, the 194 & 193 and lack of city centre Heliports; BEA were proven right to have remained unconvinced. Their Helicopter operations only really became profitable, once the oil feed business got under way at the end of the 1960's.

 

[alertken]

The brochure refers back to 5/60 first thoughts.

Westland found themselves conflicted after Govt. encouraged them to become UK rotory monopoly: they had spent own money to take S.56/S.64 items as Westminster (1st.flight, 2nd.prot., 4/9/59). Intended takeover of Fairey's aircraft interests was public 8/2/60 (done, 2/5/60), to include Rotodyne, then at last attracting interest, RAF and civil (it had first been funded in 1953). They bought Saro 14/7/59, Bristol Helicopter Div., 23/3/60, so by 8/60 {this brochure} they had licences for S-56, (5/59) S-61, plus T.192 (and an RAF order for 26 as reward for adopting the orphans unwanted by BAC or HSAL). They dumped Westminster 9/60; MoS would cease funding Rotodyne, 2/62 when RAF chose STOL Andover; after last Belvedere delivery to a thrilled RAF, Westland attended to the (S.61/SH-3D) Sea King (to be) gold mine.

None of this was of the slightest interest to Sholto (MRAF,MC,DFC), Lord Douglas, BEAC Chairman ('49-64) with sufficient commercial nous to wonder why his airline had a Helicopter Experimental Unit, mired as a Cost, never to be a Profit Centre. SABENA had an S.58 operation, downtown-Airport/Antwerp/Paris/2xNeths., (3/57-to be 3/67) - as Cost Centre feed to Profit Centre long-haul. BEAC had no long haul, no yearning to aid BOAC by feeding them. And as for mid-town Vertiport routes as a business (on such 60- minute links as are now operated from London City)...the cartel of intra-European flag carriers then worked revenue-sharing pools. Vert would simply cannibalise what he already had. BEAline Bus notions of 1951, and BEAC attendance at MoS Committees on verticality were merely dutiful help to people whose favours BEAC needed elsewhere. MoS Aircraft Research branch (where Hovercraft would also be set) was far more interested in military applications, which the Scientific Civil Service understood, than civil, which it did not. It had persevered with Bristol's twin-rotor hoping that would solve torque: Piaseki/Vertol/Boeing would so vindicate them...as Bristol did not. RAF first tried to buy Chinook in 1961 and today has no Out-of-Service Date. (?2061).

The only reason Chairman permitted BEAH wef 1/5/64 was that the Isles of Scilly route (Rapides finally withdrawn) claimed the same Highlands and Islands social cohesion subsidy as did the Scottish routes.
I assume no-one here would propose anything in 1964 for that route that was not S.61?

​

 

[GT6Boy]

The brochure refers back to 5/60 first thoughts.

Westland found themselves conflicted after Govt. encouraged them to become UK rotory monopoly: they had spent own money to take S.56/S.64 items as Westminster (1st.flight, 2nd.prot., 4/9/59). Intended takeover of Fairey's aircraft interests was public 8/2/60 (done, 2/5/60), to include Rotodyne, then at last attracting interest, RAF and civil (it had first been funded in 1953). They bought Saro 14/7/59, Bristol Helicopter Div., 23/3/60, so by 8/60 {this brochure} they had licences for S-56, (5/59) S-61, plus T.192 (and an RAF order for 26 as reward for adopting the orphans unwanted by BAC or HSAL). They dumped Westminster 9/60; MoS would cease funding Rotodyne, 2/62 when RAF chose STOL Andover; after last Belvedere delivery to a thrilled RAF, Westland attended to the (S.61/SH-3D) Sea King (to be) gold mine.

None of this was of the slightest interest to Sholto (MRAF,MC,DFC), Lord Douglas, BEAC Chairman ('49-64) with sufficient commercial nous to wonder why his airline had a Helicopter Experimental Unit, mired as a Cost, never to be a Profit Centre. SABENA had an S.58 operation, downtown-Airport/Antwerp/Paris/2xNeths., (3/57-to be 3/67) - as Cost Centre feed to Profit Centre long-haul. BEAC had no long haul, no yearning to aid BOAC by feeding them. And as for mid-town Vertiport routes as a business (on such 60- minute links as are now operated from London City)...the cartel of intra-European flag carriers then worked revenue-sharing pools. Vert would simply cannibalise what he already had. BEAline Bus notions of 1951, and BEAC attendance at MoS Committees on verticality were merely dutiful help to people whose favours BEAC needed elsewhere. MoS Aircraft Research branch (where Hovercraft would also be set) was far more interested in military applications, which the Scientific Civil Service understood, than civil, which it did not. It had persevered with Bristol's twin-rotor hoping that would solve torque: Piaseki/Vertol/Boeing would so vindicate them...as Bristol did not. RAF first tried to buy Chinook in 1961 and today has no Out-of-Service Date. (?2061).

The only reason Chairman permitted BEAH wef 1/5/64 was that the Isles of Scilly route (Rapides finally withdrawn) claimed the same Highlands and Islands social cohesion subsidy as did the Scottish routes.
I assume no-one here would propose anything in 1964 for that route that was not S.61?

​

Excellent reply- thanks for taking the time and considerable effort.
The S61 route to the Scillies was managed with some success on a very small rotating fleet down there- I can't imagine any other helicopter of the time bar the BV 107, being remotely close to operation cost in comparison or capability to the S.61.