Boeing P-8A Poseidon (737-800EFV) MMA (Multi-mission Maritime Aircraft)

hesham

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Hi,

A new program for US Navy the MMA (Multi-mission Maritime
Aircraft) is now fullfied by Boeing 737-800ERX.
 

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CammNut

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Otherwise known as the P-8A Poseidon. But a real programme, not a secret project. What does qualify for this forum, perhaps, is Boeing's candidate for the US Navy's EP-X requirement to replace the EP-3E Aries ELINT aircraft, which is based on the P-8.

The aircraft looks like this SIGINT P-8 variant initially proposed by Boeing as a replacement for the Lockheed Martin Aerial Common Sensor (ACS), a US Army/Navy platform that was cancelled after the mission system outgrew the Embraer ERJ-145 platform.

Note the raked wingtips. This have replaced the winglets originally planned for the P-8 because of concerns over icing of the winglets. This was a concern on the P-8, and not on the 737, because the P-8 will spend extended periods in icing conditions.
 

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elmayerle

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*whistles* That's way more room and better accomodations than the EP-3E has. If they get the current upgrader and maintainer of the EP-3E, L-3 Integrated Systems in Waco, TX, on board, that'd be quite the winner; esp. since this concern is already quite familiar with the late-model 737 family from their work on the BBJ. Too, they've also done considerable work on the E-6B/C efforts.
 

GTX

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What's so secret about that? It's what the P-8A Poseidon began life as: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/p8a/index.html

Regards,

Greg
 

sferrin

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There are scores of posts lately full of inane questions and comments and you're worried about a legitimate post? ???
 

Just call me Ray

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GTX said:
What's so secret about that? It's what the P-8A Poseidon began life as: http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/p8a/index.html

Regards,

Greg

Looks more like a combination of Wedgetail and Posiedon to me. Maybe the program was scaled back, or the sensors got a lot smaller.
 

flateric

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OK, in this case this is early MMA configuration, rarely seen stuff.
 

GTX

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Hey, maybe its just me, but I thought the MMA wasn't such a "secret" project - its been in the open from the start and has developed into the P-8. Why not post this in the "Aerospace" area? If you wanted to refer to an earlier, unrealised proposal, then fine. Anyway, I simply asked the question "What's so secret about that?"

Regards,

Greg
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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No need for arguments here. It is a well known real program, but this is an early version, so its a judgement call based on whether we are discussing the P-8 or simply posting this early configuration.
 

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It's interesting to see where the program started, compared to the current P-8 config.

I'm more interested in the Orion 21 concept, because you just can't beat turboprops for fuel economy and long loiter during the ASW mission. From what I've seen, Orion 21 was an even more drastic overhaul of the P-3 than the canceled P-7.
 

Rickshaw

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hesham said:
Hi,

the Boeing MMA (Multi-mission Maritime Aircraft) was based on the
Model 737-800.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/2002/2002%20-%201908.html

Isn't this rather like the 737 Surveiller that the Indonesian bought back in the 1980s?

1156221.jpg
 

GTX

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Technically yes, although the P-8 and the whole MMA idea are light years ahead of the Surveiller and include a proper ASW fit out.

Regards,

Greg
 

Just call me Ray

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CFE said:
It's interesting to see where the program started, compared to the current P-8 config.

Which is why I'm interested in the apparent scaling back, or at least lack of, visible sensors compared to the original config.

GTX said:
Technically yes, although the P-8 and the whole MMA idea are light years ahead of the Surveiller and include a proper ASW fit out.

Not to mention the turbofans, much larger fuselage, and new wing the 738 airframe brings.
 

TomS

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Just call me Ray said:
Which is why I'm interested in the apparent scaling back, or at least lack of, visible sensors compared to the original config.

I found a couple of online mentions of Raytheon repackaging the APS-137 radar to fit in the existing mould lines of the 737--that plus some other improvements apparently turned it into APY-10. I'd guess that this early MMA design had the ventral radome to accomodate a stock APS-137 instead.

http://www.b737.org.uk/mma.htm
 

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What specific equipment are the fuselage blisters are for? My take is that the pic depicts a potential replacement for the EP-3E Aires ELINT aircraft, rather than the vanilla P-8 Poseidon.
 

TomS

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CFE said:
What specific equipment are the fuselage blisters are for? My take is that the pic depicts a potential replacement for the EP-3E Aires ELINT aircraft, rather than the vanilla P-8 Poseidon.

Give that man a prize. Going back to the original article, I see that the caption for this picture is "The Signals Intelligence variant of MMA will replace the EP-3."

In articles about the new EPX competition to replace the EP-3, Boeing reps have said that their original (c. 2002) proposal -- which this photo illustrates -- included a Search & Attack model (the ASW baseline) and a Surveillance and Intelligence model (an EP-3 replacement).

http://www.c4isrjournal.com/story.php?F=3146195
 

LowObservable

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Since it's a Flight drawing, too, it's probably more their concept than Boeing's - a 737MMA with an ACS-like sensor fit.
 

CFE

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Would it make sense to incorporate the ELINT package and ASW package in the same airframe? I would assume that the EP-8 would have had only the ELINT equipment in the standard P-8 airframe. The point is moot now, as the EP-8 has been cancelled.
 

TomS

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CFE said:
Would it make sense to incorporate the ELINT package and ASW package in the same airframe? I would assume that the EP-8 would have had only the ELINT equipment in the standard P-8 airframe. The point is moot now, as the EP-8 has been cancelled.

Now that ACS has collapsed, the Navy is now running an EP-X program for which the P-8 airframe is the clear front runner.

It would not be practical to conduct both the maritime surveillance and ELINT missions using the same aircraft--the ELINT mission package is big enough to occupy most of a 737-sized airframe by itself. Boeing has talked about mounting rotating collection antennas in the P-8 weapon bay, for example.
 

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http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3a5bf2e8b3-e69c-4bf6-a7e0-75b5c1190847&plckCommentSortOrder=TimeStampAscending
 

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CFE

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Thanks for the pic. Can't wait to see how it looks after it gets a fresh coat of paint.
 

CFE

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Awesome pics. Thanks, Flateric. After seeing all of the lumps and antennas on the P-8, it's really scaring me away from building my Revell 737NG as a Poseidon.
 

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In addition to Australia and Italy (I think they've already committed,) I would expect most P-3 users to sign on to P-8 at some point. As long as the ASW requirement exists, P-8 remains the best solution for replacing the P-3. (That's not to say it was the best choice for the MMA competition, but it's the only choice now.)
 

Thorvic

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CFE said:
In addition to Australia and Italy (I think they've already committed,) I would expect most P-3 users to sign on to P-8 at some point. As long as the ASW requirement exists, P-8 remains the best solution for replacing the P-3. (That's not to say it was the best choice for the MMA competition, but it's the only choice now.)

Did you mean India, as they have already ordered the aircraft to replace their IL-38 May's. But i think Italy has expressed an interest if not an order, with similar EADS Airbus conversions now falling by the wayside.

G
 

flateric

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Boeing Unveils US Navy Paint Scheme for P-8A Poseidon

2009-05-05

The first painted P-8A Poseidon aircraft rolls out of the paint hangar at Boeing?s [NYSE: BA] Renton, Wash., facility, displaying its new U.S. Navy livery. The aircraft, designated T-2, is the third of five test aircraft being assembled and tested as part of the System Development and Demonstration contract that Boeing received in 2004. The first test aircraft, T-1, which successfully completed the program?s first flight on April 25, will be painted in the same gray paint scheme later this summer. T-2 was painted in late April. The Navy plans to purchase 108 P-8A anti-submarine warfare aircraft to replace its fleet of P-3Cs. Initial operational capability is planned for 2013. The P-8A is built by a Boeing-led industry team that includes CFM International, Northrop Grumman, Raytheon, Spirit AeroSystems and GE Aviation.

Photo Credit: Boeing photo by Jim Anderson


 

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That is one ugly color of airplane, I wonder if that’s even the paint or just some kind of anti corrosion coating.

The P-8 might well pick up contracts even from people not particularly interested in anti submarine warfare. Nations are ever more concerned about maritime patrol for countering illegal immigration, drug running, protection of EEZs, piracy and other missions. For those roles the radar/SIGINT/FLIR package on the P-8 and the P-3 before it are very useful. From what I understand the systems on P-8 are all to be modular, and the US is offering foreign countries the option of either integrating custom systems or pick and choosing what US standard features the model they buy actually carries. That should help attract orders, and control costs.
 

TomS

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Sea Skimmer said:
That is one ugly color of airplane, I wonder if that’s even the paint or just some kind of anti corrosion coating.

Are you talking about the early pics or the gloss white Navy paint scheme flateric posted? The early ones with the crazy metallic green are anti-corrosion coatings. The gloss white is a real paint job, and it looks pretty smart to me. Well suited to blending in at the commercial 737s at the planned forward operating sites for the P-8.

Sea Skimmer said:
The P-8 might well pick up contracts even from people not particularly interested in anti submarine warfare. Nations are ever more concerned about maritime patrol for countering illegal immigration, drug running, protection of EEZs, piracy and other missions. For those roles the radar/SIGINT/FLIR package on the P-8 and the P-3 before it are very useful. From what I understand the systems on P-8 are all to be modular, and the US is offering foreign countries the option of either integrating custom systems or pick and choosing what US standard features the model they buy actually carries. That should help attract orders, and control costs.

Possibly, but for anything less than the full up P-8 mission kit, this plane really is overkill. It's huge (and explensive) compared to the other MPA offerings on the market, and flying it half-empty just doesn't make that much sense, IMO. Sure, Indonesia has a trio of 737s with surveillance radar for maritime/EEZ patrol, but that wasn't emulated by anyone else. There are lots of more affordable solutions for the simple surface surveillance mission.
 

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How will the P-8's loiter time compare to that of the P-3? I assume that the P-3 would have some advantage in this regard. Then again, the P-8's higher cruise speed will allow it to dash towards the area of interest in less time and respond to time-sensitive targets, so it's really a trade-off.
 

TomS

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CFE said:
How will the P-8's loiter time compare to that of the P-3? I assume that the P-3 would have some advantage in this regard. Then again, the P-8's higher cruise speed will allow it to dash towards the area of interest in less time and respond to time-sensitive targets, so it's really a trade-off.

You might be surprised. Time on station for the P-8 is at least as good as the P-3 at realistic operational ranges from base. The brochure figure for the P-8 is 4 hours at 1200 nm, which compares pretty well to the 3 hours at 1300 nm book value for the P-3 (reduced now due to gross weight limits on the airframe). Plus, the P-8 can refuel in flight, which the P-3 cannot.
 

GTX

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Speaking of the P-8, Australia is now formally on board:

http://www.minister.defence.gov.au/Fitzgibbontpl.cfm?CurrentId=9056

Regards,

Greg
 

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From theworacle via YouTube:

Boeing animation of an anti-submarine mission with the US Navy's new P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft, schedule to enter service in 2013.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRWF8uVaK6M
 

Triton

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From theworacle via YouTube:
Boeing video of the first flight of the US Navy's P-8A Poseidon anti-submarine warfare aircraft, from Renton Field, Washington, to Boeing Field in Seattle on April 25, 2009.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4uNqBL-V80
 

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Counterfeit Parts Found on P-8 Posiedons (Defense Tech)

Senate Armed Services Committee Chairman Carl Levin (D-Mich) just dropped a couple of very alarming tales during a hearing about counterfeit parts making their way into brand new U.S. military weapons.

Earlier this year, Boeing and the Navy found that the ice detection system on a brand new P-8 Poseidon was defective. The ice detection system is a critical piece of hardware designed to prevent tragedies by alerting pilots to the presence of ice on an aircraft’s control surfaces. Where did this defective part come from? China. A whole batch of a key piece of the ice detection hardware that was sent to the P-8 production line turned out to be used and worn out parts that were badly refurbished and sold to P-8 subcontractor BAE Systems as a new part, according to Levin. Boeing and BAE first became aware of the problem in 2009, he added.

The fake P-8 parts are just one of many examples of how counterfeit parts — often made from 1980s and 1990s-vintage junk computer parts that are sanded down and remarked in China and then sold back to the U.S. as brand new computer chips for advanced weapons systems. One witness at the hearing just described growing counterfiet semiconductors seeping into critical weapons systems as “ticking time bombs.”
 

flateric

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CFE said:
It's interesting to see where the program started, compared to the current P-8 config.
enjoy
 

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Triton

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Boeing P-8A Poseidon paint scheme.

Source:
http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.com/
 

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