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Argentinian Unbuilt Projects

Petrus

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And now more info on the Pallavicino's projects. They never had any official designation, so they remain known as Project 1 and Project 2.

The Project 1, a radical modification of the IAe-30 Nancu (also designed by Pallavicino) was to be a "heavy fighter", in a class of the Gloster Meteor: one-seater, two Rolls-Royce Derwent V engines each producing 3.500 lb static thrust. The plane was to have been armed with four Hispano-Suiza 20mm automatic cannon.

Here are its specifications:

Wing span: 15,00m
Length: 13,98 m
Height: 4,383 m
Wing area: 35,3 m2
Empty weight: 4.225 kg
All-up weight: 7.950 kg
Wing loading: 225 kg/sq.m

Max. speed @ SL: 910 kph
Max. speed @ 9150 m: 970 kph
Climbing speed @ SL: 26 mps
Climb speed to 9150 m: 8'22"
Ceiling: 15.240m

3 tons of fuel
range 2.300 km

Project 2 was conceived as a light bomber. Two crew: the pilot and the navigator, who was to be seated in a glazed nose or behind the pilot (in such a case the nose would remain solid as in the attached drawing). Armament included four Hispano-Suiza cannon and two bombs of 900 or 1000 kg each in an internal bomb bay. It could also carry twenty 75mm air-to-ground rockets.

Specifications of the Project 2:

Wing span: 18,70 m
Length: 14,00m
Height: 4,65 m
Wing area: 46,65 sq.m
Wing loading: 280 kg/sq.m
Empty weight: 6.500 kg
All-up weight: 13.070 kg

Max. speed @ SL: 810 kph
Max. speed @ 9150 m: 870 kph
Climbing speed: 15,2 mps
Climb time to: 9150 m in 15'55"
Ceiling: 12.200 m

Range with 4 t of fuel and 2 t of bombs: 3.300 km

And finally below you may have a look at the Pallavicino's aircraft drawings (poor quality of the scans is an effect of my scanner's malfunction, for which I am sorry).

[source: Italian magazine "Aero Fan" n. 61, April- June 1997]

Best regards,
Piotr
 

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bluedonkey99

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certainly an interesting article - pictorially, a i know little spanish.

but there do seem strong influences from Me 263 / MIG I-270 and Gloster Aircraft!?
 

vajt

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What a shame...a country with so much potential and now they barely have anything to show for it. Just some old Pucaras and the IA-63 which pales in comparison to the potentail that these other designs had. I wonder what Argentina would be building right now if back in the late 40's they were serious in building these aircraft and kept on building them through the decades. I would imagine they could be at least at the level of a Gripen.

-----JT-----
 

hesham

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Hi,

a single seat FMA IA 58 Pucara.
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19900007435_1990007435.pdf
 

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martinbayer

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I remember coming across a mention somewhere (unfortunately I don't recall the source) that there was allegedly a Pucara design study with jet engines. Does anybody have more information?

Martin
 

Apophenia

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martinbayer said:
I remember coming across a mention somewhere (unfortunately I don't recall the source) that there was allegedly a Pucara design study with jet engines. Does anybody have more information?
Martin,

FMA planned a version of the IA-58 Pucará or or "Superpucará" with twin 1048 kg thrust Astafans (ie: the Astazou with a 600mm or 700mm variable-pitch fan added). Some sources designate this jet Pucará as IA-60.* [Some sources list the IA-60 as the Pucará-R ... could that be for Reacción?]

The twin Astafans were to be mounted on the rear fuselage, the former nacelles becoming just undercarriage fairings (and fuel pods). The Astafans were aimed at the civilian market (Aero Commander, Ted Smith Super Star 3000, Italair F,22 Jet Condor) leading the Argentine AF to view them as unsuited to a military role.

There's a bunch of fan art out there for Über Pucarás pretending to be mini-Warthogs. AFAIK, the actual "Superpucará" project was for a two-seat trainer not an attack aircraft. Attached is a front view of what might be the "Superpucará".

"Superpucará" Specs: max speed 0.73 Mach, ceiling 10,000 m, max T/O 6500 kg (empty 3800 kg).

[* There's a conflict with this designation since it was also applied to a 1977 fighter bomber project by Héctor Eduardo Ruiz. This wing-winged 2-seater resembled the AI-63 Pampa but with the Pucará's T-tail. IA 60 fighter-bomber specs: max speed 950 km/h, 1 x RR Spey, 2 x 30 mm DEFA 554, 2000 kg bomb load. A full-scale mockup was built. http://www.argothypermedia.com/fma/19551993/19551993_06ac.html]

Does anyone know what the IA-61 project was? Some say Pucará-T, a pressurized transport derivative of the IA-58.
 

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martinbayer

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Thanks, Apophenia! That pretty much matches what I remember reading about (still couldn't trace the source though).

Martin
 

martinbayer

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Loren,

it was the first design shown in Apophenia's post, not the Pampa. I remember coming across the Pampa iron bird for integration testing at the then still Dornier plant in Immenstaad at Lake Konstanz during an internship in the winter of '82/'83, since Dornier provided design support to FMA based on their experience with the Alpha Jet. It was (at least to me) somewhat amusing to one day see crates with the Martin Baker ejection seats being delivered only months after the Falklands war, when officially tensions were still running somewhat high...

Martin
 

Hood

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After much searching I've come across some other Argentine projects.

I.Ae. 26
A conventional fighter aircraft designed by Emile Dewoitine with a choice of either a 1,030hp Rolls Royce Merlin III or a Daimler-Benz DB 601-A. The fighter was superseded by the I.Ae.27 Pulqui project.
Wingspan 10.2m; length 8.9m; wing area 15.92 m²; total weight 2740 kg; max speed 560km/h; ceiling 10,000m and range 1,400km. Armament was planned to be 20mm caoon and four 7.5mm MG in the wings.

I.Ae. 28
This was based on the I.Ae 24 Calquin and became the Super Calquin and also seems to have covered an airliner version too. The bomber was to have RR Merlin III engines and the airliner either 950hp Bristol Mercury radials or French GR-14 Gnome-Rhones.
The airliner had a span of 22.5m; length 17.5m; wing area 66m²; max speed 465kmh; cruise speed 430kmh and range 3,000km.

I.Ae. 29
Another jet fighter proposal to supersede the I.Ae. 27 Pulqui with straight wings and lower nose intakes like the P-80 and powered by a RR Derwent and dates from 1947-48 since it was abandoned when Kurt Tank began work on the Pulqui II.
The I.Ae. 29 had a span of 9.5m; length 9.2m; wing area 18.7m²; maximum speed 800km/h and 900km range. Armament seems to be 4 20mm cannon or 13mm machine-guns in the nose ahead of the intakes.

IA.36 Condor
Began in late 1951 by Kurt Tank as a 32-40 passenger subsonic airliner with five RR Nenes mounted annularly around the rear fuselage with swept wings and looking spookily like the Armstrong Whitworth AW.167 of April 1953. Tank hoped to use newer engines in a production model and a fuselage mock-up was made as well as wind tunnel tests. Estimated speed and range was 950kmh and 5,000km.

IA.39
An 18-seat short-haul airliner based on the IA.35 and powered by two 740hp R-19 'El Indio' radials.

IA.40
A supersonic fighter designed by Kurt Tank. This is shown in the photo on page 1 of this thread and I've always suspected it to be the HL-24 Marut and other sources seem to have indentical stats to the Indian fighter and indeed pictures and plans of this fighter seem to be indentical. I think that when Tank left his employment in Argentina shortly after drafting this fighter (perhaps deterred by the economic position to fund development) he found a willing buyer in the Indian AF to complete development. Certainly he seems to have made few changes. Of course the Orpheus was too weak to power this design supersonically.

IA.42
A 1952 design for a four-engined variant of the IA.39 with a pressurised cabin for 36 passengers, twin fins and powered by four radials (perhaps 740hp R-19 'El Indio' radials). A twin-engined bomber very similar in appearance to the B-25 was also drafted at the same time with two 740hp R-19 'El Indio' radials.

IA.43
A delta-wing research aircraft powered by a RR Nene with a planned maximum speed of 950km/h and a ceiling of 16,000m.
 

Panzerknacker

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Interesting topic ¡¡

Some comments:

A) the strange layout of the engines in the Tank "Condor" projekt was for eaerodinamic cleanlyness and the realtive lack of power of those, so five were used to provide some decent trust. There were tramitation to manufacture the Drwent over here in the years 1953-54 but that end in nothing after the 1955 coup.

The Pucara "Delta" article was interesting, it could be the "little brother" of Grumman's AX entry.
B ) The so called A-58 conceptual project is not precicely the Delta, the Pucara Delta is actually an somewhat modernized variant of the IA-58A, the Delta is still in use in Argentina.

I.Ae. 26
A conventional fighter aircraft designed by Emile Dewoitine with a choice of either a 1,030hp Rolls Royce Merlin III or a Daimler-Benz DB 601-A. The fighter was superseded by the I.Ae.27 Pulqui project.
Wingspan 10.2m; length 8.9m; wing area 15.92 m²; total weight 2740 kg; max speed 560km/h; ceiling 10,000m and range 1,400km. Armament was planned to be 20mm caoon and four 7.5mm MG in the wings.
3 view of the IA 26 design.

 

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airman

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good thread, now i know that Kurt Tank had worked for IA!
 

Panzerknacker

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He did until 1955. this is one of the last design, medium transport IA-42 ( worth to mention that IA is just a prefix, the manufacturer is FMA, Fabrica Militar de Aviones )
The IA-43 had 4 x 760 hp radial engines and 30 meters wingspan.



This is the iA-43, not sure but I think was a Horten desig due the wing configuration, the iA 43 specification proposed as advanced jet trainer, it had 3 seats and and RR Nenen engine.

 

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Hammer Birchgrove

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I wonder the chance for having Argentina, Egypt and India (read: those non-superpowers who had German inventors/designers/engineers working for them) collaborating in their aircraft projects, back in the day... ???
 

Panzerknacker

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Those 3 countries ? hmmm not many chances I guess ;D

This is the IA-40, the last K tank design before his definitive departure.

 

overscan

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Great images - are they from a book or magazine? If I could trouble you for a source please :)
 

Retrofit

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Panzerknacker said:
This is the iA-43, not sure but I think was a Horten desig due the wing configuration, the iA 43 specification proposed as advanced jet trainer, it had 3 seats and and RR Nenen engine.

This is the IA-40, the last K tank design before his definitive departure.
Hej,
According to the following source (http://www.aeromilitaria.com.ar/ind/aviones/index.htm), the IA-43 was the "Pulqui III" single-seat combat aircraft project (and "ancestor" of the HAL HF-24 "Marut"). No data concerning the IA-40!
The reference of the 4-seat delta-wing liaison aircraft/advanced jet trainer, derived from the IA-37, seems to be IA-50. (Reference later re-issued for the "Guarani II" transport aircraft).
Any confirmation, please?

All the best,
Philippe
 

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lark

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Drawings are on a site found by Apophenia...

http://www.argothypermedia.com/fma/19431955/19431955_08c.html

Good luck.
 

Panzerknacker

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such wonderful postings, these would make for an interesting book in their own right (South American Secret Projects?)
many thanks for sharing, most of those i hadnt seen til now
Could be, however there are only 2 countries designing aircraft in South America and we beat Brazil by far at list in the number of prototipes ;D

Great images - are they from a book or magazine? If I could trouble you for a source please
Sorry, my bad, the source is a book, "Fabrica Militar de Aviones, historias y testimonios" edited by the Industry Office of the Cordoba Province.

Hej,
According to the following source (http://www.aeromilitaria.com.ar/ind/aviones/index.htm), the IA-43 was the "Pulqui III" single-seat combat aircraft project (and "ancestor" of the HAL HF-24 "Marut"). No data concerning the IA-40!
The reference of the 4-seat delta-wing liaison aircraft/advanced jet trainer, derived from the IA-37, seems to be IA-50. (Reference later re-issued for the "Guarani II" transport aircraft).
Any confirmation, please?

All the best,
Philippe
Probably those were the preliminary IA numbers, The IA-50 Guarani was an turboprop transport made in series so I suppose the designation of the project IA-43/50 was overrun by the earlier. I think IA-43 should be more correct in order not to get confused.

The iA-37 was built as an glider proto only. Is interesting to realize thet the german glider proto planification was used well after the departure of the last german designer , even the more modern IA-58 pucara and IA-63 Pampa had its own wooden glider variant.
 

lark

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Excellent Panzerknacker,
Do you have a bit more info about the book
you mentions .( Publisher ,ISBN nr ...)
Thanks in advance.
 

Antonio

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Do you have a bit more info about the book
you mentions
That's your link:

http://www.mincyt.cba.gov.ar/site/fabricamilitar/index.html
;)
 

lark

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Thanks a lot !
 

TinWing

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blackkite

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Thanks! Very interesting book.
 

Panzerknacker

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There you got it that is the book. The book is free to use without comercial purposes do can be dowloaded without guilt. B)

An interesting aircraft wich is not very well portrayed in there is the IA-55. The IA-55 was proposed as bivalent Trainer/COIN plataform, it was derivated from the agricultural aircraft IA-53 Mamboreta ( mantis), the engine would be an Astazoun 640 hp turboprop and the fixed armament 4 x 7,62mm MAG in the wings. However the Air Force wasnt very much convinced by the single engine and slow speed, so they asked for an more powerful plane, eventually the requeriment evolved in a twin engine project, the Pucara.


Real IA-55 profile:
 

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lark

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Many thanks gents..
 

vajt

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The Advanced IA63 looks nice. Has a similar line as the AMX.

-----JT-----
 

Panzerknacker

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SAIA ( Sistema de Armas Integrado Argentino = Integrate argentine weapons system ) was a bit unrealistic because it relied in a sofisticated sofware and hardware made by argentine private enteprises whom had no previous experience manufacturing avionics.

That summoned to the big loss of money caused by the failure of the combined bussines aircraft ( argentine-brazilian) CBA-123 Vector and the participation in the J-PATS programme, killed the projekt.

The IA-63 avanzado was more like it, still is proposed as the argentine future combat aircraft, I be seen also that project designated as ACL ( avion de combate liviano, Light combat aircraft) .There are a lot of plans right now in the FMA, the sure thing is the fabrication of more AT-63 trainer/light attacks an the modernization of the IA-58Ds since the budget has been already aproved. But could be some space for the ACL, we will have to wait and see .
 

robunos

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FMA IA-62 was two seat primary trainer ,powered by one 440 kw
(950 shp) Turbomeca Astazou XIVR turboprop engine.
In 1977, following the discontinuation of the development of the IA 60 advanced jet trainer,
the Fabrica Militar de Aviones (FMA) began the design of a successor for the Beech B45
Mentor, to a specification from the Fuerza Aerea Argentina (FAA), and designated the IA 62.
The specification called for suitability for the basic training role, with full IFR and night flying
ability, and secondary tactical recon and COIN capability. Pressurisation was requested.
The powerplant was not specified, although a turboprop was favoured. In view of their
experience with the Pucara, FMA favoured a version of the Astazou, flat rated to 530 shp,
although the 690 shp Astazou XIV was also proposed.
The structure was to be all-metal, the fuselage being semi-monocoque, and the three section
wing using NACA 2415 and 2409 sections. A retractable tricycle undercarriage was to have
been fitted. The crew would have been accommodated in tandem.
For the tactical recon and COIN roles, the IA 62 would have been flown as a single-seater,
with a 7.62mm machine gun in each wing, and various stores on a single hardpoint below
each wing.
Metal was expected to start being cut in spring or summer 1978, with service entry from
1983-4. However, development was cancelled shortly thereafter, probably as a result of
FMA acquiring a licence for the production of the Beech model 45 (T-34C) Turbo Mentor,
75 of which were assembled by FMA from Beech supplied components, following the
delivery of 15 complete aircraft.

Sources : 'Air International', February 1978, page 102
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_IA_62
Putnam's 'Beech Aircraft', page 100



cheers,
Robin.
 

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Panzerknacker

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Interesting proposal for an Pucara up-date, in fact the modernization is underway for 30 Pucaras in the fMA but much more simpler than this one.

 

vajt

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robunos said:
FMA IA-62 was two seat primary trainer ,powered by one 440 kw
(950 shp) Turbomeca Astazou XIVR turboprop engine.
In 1977, following the discontinuation of the development of the IA 60 advanced jet trainer,
the Fabrica Militar de Aviones (FMA) began the design of a successor for the Beech B45
Mentor, to a specification from the Fuerza Aerea Argentina (FAA), and designated the IA 62.
The specification called for suitability for the basic training role, with full IFR and night flying
ability, and secondary tactical recon and COIN capability. Pressurisation was requested.
The powerplant was not specified, although a turboprop was favoured. In view of their
experience with the Pucara, FMA favoured a version of the Astazou, flat rated to 530 shp,
although the 690 shp Astazou XIV was also proposed.
The structure was to be all-metal, the fuselage being semi-monocoque, and the three section
wing using NACA 2415 and 2409 sections. A retractable tricycle undercarriage was to have
been fitted. The crew would have been accommodated in tandem.
For the tactical recon and COIN roles, the IA 62 would have been flown as a single-seater,
with a 7.62mm machine gun in each wing, and various stores on a single hardpoint below
each wing.
Metal was expected to start being cut in spring or summer 1978, with service entry from
1983-4. However, development was cancelled shortly thereafter, probably as a result of
FMA acquiring a licence for the production of the Beech model 45 (T-34C) Turbo Mentor,
75 of which were assembled by FMA from Beech supplied components, following the
delivery of 15 complete aircraft.

Sources : 'Air International', February 1978, page 102
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FMA_IA_62
Putnam's 'Beech Aircraft', page 100



cheers,
Robin.
Didn't Argentina recently approve a new light trainer similar to this concept?

-----JT-----
 

Apophenia

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Panzerknacker said:
Interesting proposal for an Pucara up-date, in fact the modernization is underway for 30 Pucaras in the fMA but much more simpler than this one.
Looks nice but the mention of "Garret PT-6A" suggest that this artwork is of dubious origin. Honeywell would know how to spell 'Garrett' while competitor P&WC doesn't use a hyphen in PT6A. ;)
 
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