Alternative Invincible Class Ideas

[pathology_doc]

The ruse worked perfectly, and on Coral Sea nobody suspected ahything till Glamorgan called the carrier from 11 miles distance and announced that she already launched all her "Exocet" and carrier have about twenty seconds till they strike.

At that range, you could probably start throwing in Seaslugs too. And they will be much faster and harder to stop. The only difference is that the beam-rider lamp set will set off just about every ECM alarm the carrier has.

 

[GK Dundas]

At a range of as you said 11 miles they're not going to be able to do much. And during the Falklands they'd been used for shore bombardment ,I recall someone saying it was the equivalent of being hit by a 15 inch shell roughly.
Ouch !

 

[Yellow Palace]

At that range, you could probably start throwing in Seaslugs too. And they will be much faster and harder to stop. The only difference is that the beam-rider lamp set will set off just about every ECM alarm the carrier has.

Given that Seaslug is faster, time the launch so they arrive at the same time as the Exocets. Gives a couple more minutes before the ESM starts losing its mind and will help saturate terminal defences.

 

[pathology_doc]

Given that Seaslug is faster, time the launch so they arrive at the same time as the Exocets. Gives a couple more minutes before the ESM starts losing its mind and will help saturate terminal defences.

At what point do the active seekers for the Exocets go live?

The other question I can't remember the answer to is whether it's possible to put the Seaslugs in the air in such a way that the guidance beam isn't picked up by the carrier's ESM, and then drop them into the target when it's too late to do anything about it, or whether the sidelobes would be picked up and tip the carrier off. @SeaslugMk2 probably has the answer to that.

 

[SeaslugMk2]

At what point do the active seekers for the Exocets go live?

The other question I can't remember the answer to is whether it's possible to put the Seaslugs in the air in such a way that the guidance beam isn't picked up by the carrier's ESM, and then drop them into the target when it's too late to do anything about it, or whether the sidelobes would be picked up and tip the carrier off. @SeaslugMk2 probably has the answer to that.

I think the answer to your first question is about 5 miles, but I could very easily be wrong about that. One thing I am sure about is that the radar turns off 5 seconds before impact to reduce the effectiveness of decoys etc.
The Type 901 had very small sidelobes, a feature of the use of a dielectric lens. In any case the carrier’s ESM should identify it as friendly and ignore it. The SeaslugMk2 system had a minimum elevation of 0•5 degree, any target below that requires a terminal dive shoot (CASWTD -pronounced as ‘custard’ by the crew) which has a success rate of 25% as opposed to 67%+ for a beam-riding shoot.
Exocets are said to fly at ‘one to two’ metres altitude to avoid detection by its target but the impact photographs I’ve seen appear to be about twice that height; the one that hit HMS Glamorgan slid a few metres across the deck.

SRJ

 

[Dilandu]

Exocets are said to fly at ‘one to two’ metres altitude to avoid detection by its target but the impact photographs I’ve seen appear to be about twice that height; the one that hit HMS Glamorgan slid a few metres across the deck.

IIRC, they fly on minimal "safe" altitude, on which they did not risk to hit the wave; the actual altitude is determined by radar altimeter depending on sea state. I.e. if there are significant waves, the missile would fly higher to avoid hitting them.

 

[Rule of cool]

One thought I had for the Invincible class, based on what the Kiev class did in lieu of the USN's attack squadrons was a battery of Anti Ship missiles. I think there might have even been a proposal for a battery of Exocets, but I think the Mk2 Otomat with it's long range and datalinks for over the horizon capability would be a better fit.

 

[pathology_doc]

In any case the carrier’s ESM should identify it as friendly and ignore it.

Point taken, but if the CV is expecting to engage the County as a "red" for the purposes of the exercise, surely her ESM team will be warned to treat it as hostile?

I wanted to look it up on your site, but I'm getting a 404 error.

I did the sums for an 0.5 degree slope at 11 miles (statute miles assumed since not otherwise stated). I get a missile height of a little over 500 feet with my Keuffel and Esser 4081-5 slide rule, which is way too high for a hit, so CASWTD is necessary. Still, even if it doesn't hit, it's a supersonic missile that's going to give the defence systems people even browner trousers than what they already have, since they HAVE to take it seriously - and IIRC you can keep two of them in the beam at any one time.

 

[starviking]

One thought I had for the Invincible class, based on what the Kiev class did in lieu of the USN's attack squadrons was a battery of Anti Ship missiles. I think there might have even been a proposal for a battery of Exocets, but I think the Mk2 Otomat with it's long range and datalinks for over the horizon capability would be a better fit.

Exocets were planned to be fitted, a four-pack in front of the island. This is visible in early illustrations of the class.

 

[Rule of cool]

Exocets were planned to be fitted, a four-pack in front of the island. This is visible in early illustrations of the class.

Yes, I found a thread with the pictures.

That said, the MM38 is a pretty feeble missile for a light carrier with access to 8+ advanced Sea Kings that could provide over the horizon targeting. Hence my suggestion for the Otomat Mk 2, it would be a great addition to a task group centred on a 'Vince.

 

[SeaslugMk2]

…

I wanted to look it up on your site, but I'm getting a 404 error.

…

I’m sorry you got that error, what page were you trying to reach?

SRJ

 

[Dilandu]

That said, the MM38 is a pretty feeble missile for a light carrier with access to 8+ advanced Sea Kings that could provide over the horizon targeting. Hence my suggestion for the Otomat Mk 2, it would be a great addition to a task group centred on a 'Vince.

Quite a good idea! It would prvide much greater surface-strike capability for the small cost increase.

 

[Rule of cool]

Quite a good idea! It would prvide much greater surface-strike capability for the small cost increase.

If a surface ship gets to within 40-50km of a light carrier so it could fire Exocets is a horrific failure for the RN.

However, getting a surface ships to within 120-180km of a light carrier so it could fire Otomats is much more reasonable, and perhaps even a legitimate tactical move.