It would be a waste to finance 16 aircraft for an international pool, when the Luftwaffe all on it's own can need those, no need to have those be available for other users (most of which wouldn't require the capability of the A400M anyway).

While Atlas sales are always great and people have since the withdrawal from Afghanistan realized how great the A400M is (opposed to endlessly lambasting it before that), Germany should prioritize national interests. And strategic airlift is part of German national interests.

These pooled aircraft in european NATO are ridiculous anyway, having this bloated organizational structure around it just because most countries in Europe are either too lazy, unwilling or broke to fund their own airlift fleets.
 
Serious question: How does long-range strategic airlift fit into Germany's national interest?
It's integral to our ability to move material and personelle around the world as part of peace keeping efforts, humanitarian duties and also to fulfill our part within the framework of NATO.

"How does strategic airlift benefit one of the three largest militaries in Europe?"

You see how silly the question is in the first place. And guess what, when you have a robust strategic airlift fleet, you become a lot less reliant on the USAF/NATO (same thing) airlift fleet. Autonomy is always preferable, especially when you can afford it. When you can't, tough luck.
 
It wasn't a challenge to your position, just a request for an expanded explanation.
 
These pooled aircraft in european NATO are ridiculous anyway, having this bloated organizational structure around it just because most countries in Europe are either too lazy, unwilling or broke to fund their own airlift fleets.
Agree for big countries, but for the likes of Croatia, Luxembourg (shared with belgium), or baltic countries it does make sense.
Similarly i could see Portugal join the Spanish MRTT fleet with 1 aircraft.

btw, the NATO A400M fleet will be called MAF for Multinational A400M Fleet.
 
There are some hints that Turkey is also considering procuring either C-390s or additional A400Ms in the wake of that tragic C-130 incident and the subsequent grounding of the entire fleet...
Us, expecting Turkey to order additional aircraft for its primary workhorse fleet now that its modernized C-130s have been grounded for over a year, be like...:


Screenshot 2026-07-25 013333.png
Screenshot 2026-07-25 012625.png

(He's a defense reporter with a decent track record)

https://x.com/Fatih_MehmetK?s=20
 
What are we looking at ? are both messages from the same author ?

What does this mean ?
...the fact that Airbus is not referring customers to us for retrofitting
 
What does this mean ?
Turkey's ASFAT (similar in core aviation functions to Marshall Aerospace, but government-owned) performs Airbus-certified depot level maintenance, heavy overhauls and retrofits for Tu(r)AF's A400Ms; however, Airbus reportedly isn't referring the expected customers to ASFAT, so that work continues to go to Airbus facilities in Europe.

https://cdn.asfat.com.tr/catalogs/ASFAT A400M Maintenance Repair and Overhaul Center.pdf

https://defenceturkey.com/news/asfat-to-debut-strategic-capabilities-at-saha-2026

are both messages from the same author ?
Yep...

Again, none of these hints provide certainty that an order will be placed, but they are still hints nonetheless...

There are some hints that Turkey is also considering procuring either C-390s or additional A400Ms in the wake of that tragic C-130 incident and the subsequent grounding of the entire fleet...
 
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Turkey's ASFAT (similar in core aviation functions to Marshall Aerospace, but government-owned) performs Airbus-certified depot level maintenance, heavy overhauls and retrofits for Tu(r)AF's A400Ms; however, Airbus reportedly isn't referring the expected customers to ASFAT, so that work continues to go to Airbus facilities in Europe.
Ok i understand this report better now
View: https://x.com/GarethJennings3/status/1928418479624868090
 
Wonder how many A400Ms Usbekistan will order? This is a fascinating devlopment, and no doubt one to keep watch on in the comming months.
 
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Nice find Titus K. That is something that we are needing in Scotland right now with the fires in the Cairngorms.
Same in NL recently …

The kit costs ~ €1 million according to Airbus.
At least that's the figure quoted in a parliamentary document ...
 
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If the A400M fire fighting kit costs €1 million then the RAF should buy a few for the RAF A400Ms, the fire in the Caringorms has now been burning for ten days now with no sign of ending.
 
The main problem with that kind of planes is: they need to land and takeoff to refill, and transit times are killers. A trio of Canadairs repeatedly scooping a lake or a river near the fires can deliver more water on a specific target, even if "only" 7 tons at a time. In that regard south-west France has a lot of lakes (Cazaux, Biscarrosse...)

The director of the french Sécurité Civile in a interview yesterday said an optimal number of Canadairs in well synchronized rotations can deliver up to 120 mt of water on a target - a truly unmatched capability even with Dash-8s (10 tons) or A400Ms (20 tons).

He said A400Ms can only refill with water at three military bases across France - by some luck one of them is Mont de Marsan which is "only" 130 km south of both fires.
 
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The main problem with that kind of planes is: they need to land and takeoff to refill, and transit times are killers. A trio of Canadairs repeatedly scooping a lake or a river near the fires can deliver more water on a specific target, even if "only" 7 tons at a time. In that regard south-west France has a lot of lakes (Cazaux, Biscarrosse...)

The director of the french Sécurité Civile in a interview yesterday said an optimal number of Canadairs in well synchronized rotations can deliver up to 120 mt of water on a target - a truly unmatched capability even with Dash-8s (10 tons) or A400Ms (20 tons).

He said A400Ms can only refill with water at three military bases across France - by some luck one of them is Mont de Marsan which is "only" 130 km south of both fires.
Yes but why would anyone compare a tanker to a scooper anyway ?
A heavy helicopter (super-puma) in a ideal scenario can probably drop even more per hour than a Canadair.

This A400M capability is only a last ditch solution, to complement the Dash 8-Q400 tanker fleet.
 
Candadair can scoop a lake? thank god European rivers and lakes aren't in the middle of a major drought that's seen them dry up then.... oh wait.

4698.jpg


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jul/25/france-rivers-heatwaves-water-levels-drop

The above is the Loire river last week looking like it did four years ago:

images
 
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The main problem with that kind of planes is: they need to land and takeoff to refill, and transit times are killers.
Very true. I live in the home of the National Interagency Fire Center, which is one of the primary coordinators of air attack on big fires in the US. Air Tractors (Fire Boss AT802s), C-130s from whichever Air Guard squadron won/lost the lottery to fly water bomber support, some of the Canadair scoopers, and all sorts of other weirdness appears at their ramp.

Even DC10s show up, if California isn't actively on fire.

Because the airport has a pair of parallel, 8000ft runways that can be used to keep cycling passenger planes while heavily loaded water bombers lumber down the other runway.
 
Again, none of these hints provide certainty that an order will be placed, but they are still hints nonetheless...
About 2 years ago, I read a Turkish article mentioning a long-term objective of 16 A400Ms and 12 C-130Js.
Were those C-130Js (ex-RAF??) intended to replace the older C-130B/E models, or were they meant to be an additional acquisition?
In other words, was the target fleet ~28 transport aircraft, or closer to ~45 ?
 
About 2 years ago, I read a Turkish article mentioning a long-term objective of 16 A400Ms and 12 C-130Js.
Were those C-130Js (ex-RAF??) intended to replace the older C-130B/E models, or were they meant to be an additional acquisition?
In other words, was the target fleet ~28 transport aircraft, or closer to ~45 ?
Additional, those older C-130B/Es had all undergone a major avionics modernization and were expected to remain in service until 2035/40... Still, the fact that they've remained grounded for well over a year, coupled with Tu(r)AF quietly looking for a replacement, doesn't exactly bode well for their future, IMO...

Tu(r)AF had originally planned for a fleet of 26 A400Ms before the order was cut back to 10...


Turkish security institutions have long carried a "don't touch what belongs to the orphan, don't waste public money, don't spend unless necessary" mindset inherited from the Ottoman decline and the founding of the Republic.

While this fostered fiscal discipline, it also contributed to Tu(r)AF's habit over the past decade of delaying major procurement decisions and making do with mediocrity in areas like fighters and tactical airlift, even when the political will existed...
 
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If the A400M fire fighting kit costs €1 million then the RAF should buy a few for the RAF A400Ms, the fire in the Caringorms has now been burning for ten days now with no sign of ending.

For the UK 4-5 sets make sense. We're not going to suffer from the same level of fires that continental Europe does, no need for Canadair waterbombers here. Far cheaper than 1 Canadair either...
 
Agreed timmymagic we do not need water bombers in the highlands the roll on kits with the A400 should work out okay.
 
Agreed timmymagic we do not need water bombers in the highlands the roll on kits with the A400 should work out okay.


Could do with them for the moors fires near me in South Wales....ironically one of them is next to a reservoir.....though probably too small a one for a scooper should we ever get one.
 
Could do with them for the moors fires near me in South Wales....ironically one of them is next to a reservoir.....though probably too small a one for a scooper should we ever get one.
You need about 1km of straight-ish line on the water for scoopers. Depends on just how tall the hills are around the water, and how big a scooper you're talking about. Fire Bosses need less length than CL415s.

Helicopters with "bambi buckets" obviously need much less space in a line.
 
https://www.rid.it/shownews/8287/la-polonia-verso-l-acquisizione-dell-a400
Poland is negotiating with Airbus to purchase the A400 and, according to Polish Radio 24, the company has offered a deal for a number of aircraft between 10 and 14. Other sources place the numbers between 8 and 15, with the belief that the final purchase will approach the higher number rather than the lower one.
...
The acquisition of the A400 would be financed through the EU Security Action for Europe (SAFE)
mechanism. At the NATO Ankara Summit in July, Poland and Croatia joined the newly formed NATO initiative for a multinational fleet of A400s. Unlike the other member countries - Belgium, France, Germany, Spain, Turkey and the United Kingdom - neither Poland nor Croatia are currently users of the type.
 
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-rules-out-a400m-firefighting-role/

The Ministry of Defence has ruled out adapting the RAF’s A400M Atlas fleet for aerial firefighting, despite being aware of an Airbus system currently under development for the transport aircraft.​


The position was set out by Defence Minister Louise Sandher-Jones in response to a written parliamentary question from Labour MP Neil Duncan-Jordan, who asked whether the RAF’s A400M fleet could be used as firefighting tankers. Sandher-Jones said responsibility for tackling wildfires in the UK rests primarily with civilian authorities and emergency services, although military support can be made available through Military Aid to the Civil Authorities arrangements where appropriate.

She said: “Responsibility for responding to wildfires in the UK rests with the relevant civil authorities and emergency services, with military support potentially available where requested through established Military Aid to the Civil Authorities (MACA) arrangements on a case-by-case basis.”

Any such request would be considered against several factors, including whether civilian authorities had exceeded their own capacity and whether Defence could provide support without affecting operational commitments or readiness.

Sandher-Jones said: “This includes consideration of a clear need for military assistance, whether the requirement is beyond the capability or capacity of the civil authority, and whether support can be provided without unacceptably prejudicing Defence’s primary tasks, operational commitments, and readiness.”

The MOD does not currently maintain a dedicated domestic fixed-wing aerial firefighting capability and has no requirement to establish one. It does, however, retain a limited helicopter-based firefighting capability overseas, specifically in Cyprus, where Defence has standing responsibilities connected to the Sovereign Base Areas.

Sandher-Jones said: “The Ministry of Defence does not currently hold a requirement to provide a dedicated domestic aerial firefighting capability (including a fixed-wing aerial firefighting capability). However, Defence retains limited aerial firefighting capabilities to support standing tasks overseas.”

She added: “As part of this, Defence maintains a helicopter-based aerial firefighting capability in Cyprus for the specific purpose of meeting our obligations to the Sovereign Base Areas and wider communities during periods of heightened wildfire risk.”

The minister also confirmed that the department has not carried out a specific assessment of the consequences of not having a dedicated military firefighting aircraft fleet. The answer also directly addressed the A400M, confirming that the department is aware of the firefighting system being developed and tested by Airbus for the aircraft.

Airbus has been working on a roll-on, roll-off firefighting kit designed to allow the A400M to carry and release large quantities of water without permanently modifying the airframe. Despite that work, the MOD has no current plans to equip the RAF fleet for the role.

Sandher-Jones said: “The Department is aware of the Airbus A400M aerial firefighting system currently under development and testing by the manufacturer. Consequently, the Department has no plans to adapt the RAF A400M Atlas fleet for aerial firefighting purposes, or to procure dedicated water-bombing helicopters or water-bombing equipment for the military helicopter fleet.”

The response leaves the UK’s domestic wildfire response centred on civilian emergency services, with military assistance remaining available only through existing MACA arrangements rather than through a dedicated Defence aerial firefighting force.
 
The UK has plenty of Chinooks, it's a much better solution than the A400M anyway.
Ask the Aussies to transform some of your old airframes into dedicated water-bombers
 
The UK has plenty of Chinooks, it's a much better solution than the A400M anyway.
Ask the Aussies to transform some of your old airframes into dedicated water-bombers
I can't imagine there being a huge mission demand for all 22 RAF A400Ms, so why not enable them to contribute to firefighting operations as well?

As for the Chinook vs. A400M comparison, I don't think the two can really be compared, as they each bring inherent advantages over the other precisely because one is a heavy-lift rotary-wing aircraft, while the other is a fixed-wing strategic transport aircraft...
 

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