Air Defense Anti-Tank System (ADATS)

TomS said:
It's interesting that Longbow Hellfire is being rolled into IM-SHORADS as an anti-aircraft weapon against helicopters and some fixed-wing aircraft, not just a secondary anti-armor capability. It's not fast like ADATS, but fast enough to be useful at least. JAGM may also pick up the same role.

www.defensenews.com

Lockheed may repurpose its Joint Air-to-Ground Missile for air defense

The Joint Air-to-Ground Missile could be the next interceptor for the U.S. Army's European-deployed Maneuver-Short Range Air Defense capability, according to the U.S. defense giant.
www.defensenews.com www.defensenews.com
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IN an interesting update, it looks like Hellfire is being dropped from the MSHORAD vehicle in favor of a second Stinger pod. Seems Hellfire is too big to easily manhandle onto the vehicle.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1802299036684132600
View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1802299036684132600


https://twitter.com/x/status/1802837244212056258
View: https://x.com/AirPowerNEW1/status/1802837244212056258
 
iwantmoresources said:
Could an ADATS launcher have taken the place of the TOW on a standard Bradley?
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The ADATS missile is c50kg, the TOW c20kg. ADATs is also significantly longer. You could probably fit it if you didn't mind the amount of changes, but then you'd need compatible guidance (ADATS is a laser beam rider), and it would be no use for air defence without radar. So all you're getting is a more expensive ATGM with no better penetration than a BGM-71D, and a longer range that probably isn't usable. If you want a better ATGM on the Bradley, fit Hellfire.
 
DWG said:
The ADATS missile is c50kg, the TOW c20kg. ADATs is also significantly longer. You could probably fit it if you didn't mind the amount of changes, but then you'd need compatible guidance (ADATS is a laser beam rider), and it would be no use for air defence without radar. So all you're getting is a more expensive ATGM with no better penetration than a BGM-71D, and a longer range that probably isn't usable. If you want a better ATGM on the Bradley, fit Hellfire.
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I see. It would be better to keep both of these missiles in their respective role(s).
 

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DrRansom said:
ADATs would be very helpful for the Ukrainian military, longer range than Starstreak, multi-purpose warhead. It could help keep the Ka-52 more honest.

The US military - with its practical absence of any SHORAD whatsoever - would be wise to look at resurrecting the program.
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Yeah with no air to air capacity or capability besides stationary patriot systems I do think it's a good idea to resurrect it obviously with modern equipment and electronics but we need a mobile air defense that can run around with armored units like it's plan was in desert storm
 
tanker fan said:
Yeah with no air to air capacity or capability besides stationary patriot systems I do think it's a good idea to resurrect it obviously with modern equipment and electronics but we need a mobile air defense that can run around with armored units like it's plan was in desert storm
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That's basically what MSHORAD is. A mix of weapons that are all capable of air defense within 5-10km or so.
 
Ronny said:
one thing I don’t understand is how come ADATS has such awesome range for its size?. I mean it is roughly the size of AGM-114, yet can reach around the same range while moving more than double the speed of AGM-114. How come ?
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Hellfire went all the way back to the Cheyenne era (ATGAR) and was conceived in the second half of the 70s. ADATS was a whole decade newer, and that means better energetics and more efficient internal packaging. ADATS OML was also far more suitable for its role (sharp nose, streamlined tube). Hellfire barely has any wing lift.
 
yeetmahboi said:
Hellfire went all the way back to the Cheyenne era (ATGAR) and was conceived in the second half of the 70s. ADATS was a whole decade newer, and that means better energetics and more efficient internal packaging. ADATS OML was also far more suitable for its role (sharp nose, streamlined tube). Hellfire barely has any wing lift.
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ADATS also has an 8 inch diameter and uses more energetic low smoke/smokeless propellant.
 
Firefinder said:
Honestly with the way lasers are advancing...

I wonder if you make a duel mode one.

A low power set for guiding missiles. Or rockets using the Laser guide hydra deals, likely can put a quad rocket pod for every Adats tube.

Anyways the laser designator could also have a high power mode for burning things.

Add in the 30mm M230 Chain gun with Proxy fuse shells.

Be a scary set up.
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They actually could support a 7 round hydra pod in the space of each missile canister and was proposed as part of the Canadian MMEV that never happened of course though
 
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Justin said:
They actually could support a 7 round hydra pod in the space of each missile canister and was proposed as part of the Canadian MMEV that never happened of course though
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Considering how much more important SHORAD is because of drones I'd expect (or hope) laser-guided 70mm rockets are being looked at for integration onto Sergeant Stout (formerly Stryker IM-SHORAD). The ADATS missile would be a good option to have for that vehicle as well for use against higher performance targets, but after the Canadians lost interest in the MMEV LAV I imagine any production line is long gone and would need to be reestablished.

I don't know if ADATS would be right for the role today, but the US (and others) still need something between Stinger (and its replacement) and the bigger SAMs like Patriot, etc.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
I don't know if ADATS would be right for the role today, but the US (and others) still need something between Stinger (and its replacement) and the bigger SAMs like Patriot, etc.
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NASAMS, CAMM, Crotale, SPYDER, there are options.

I'm a fan of ADATS and would like to see what a modernized ADATS could do, especially in the AGDS turret that has guns, but that's a lost opportunity.
 
Colonial-Marine said:
I don't know if ADATS would be right for the role today, but the US (and others) still need something between Stinger (and its replacement) and the bigger SAMs like Patriot, etc.
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Crotale has the advantage of having a hot production line. Might need a new warhead to be as equally effective on both air and ground targets, though. HEAT with a fragmentation sleeve, and maybe a load of buckshot in the mouth of the shaped charge.

And in general I think that any army ATGM needs to be fast enough to play SHORAD as well.
 
Apparently, ADATS doesnt use high energy smokeless propellant, but lower energy first generation low smoke propellant. It defininetly had growth potential if a motor using CL-20 was developed.

To clarify: the ADATS had its first launch in 1981, about 5 to 7 years before CL-20. Low smoke propellants back before CL-20 were lower energy than the standard smoky motors. So if you had a CL-20 powered motor in the ADATS, you would probably gain +2 kilometers against helicopters and +1 kilometers against fixed wing aircraft. Against tanks, the base ADATS outranges all other ground based ATGMs of the time anyway, so its not really important.
 
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Hi yall, I got some questions. First off, the MIM-146 is 6in or 152.4mm, which begs the question, can the ADATS fire TOW missiles? and transversley can a TOW launcher fire MIM-146? also there's the HATM, which is also 152.4mm, designed to be compatible with a modified TOW system. It seems like it'd go great with ADATS for killing helis... if it's compatible, of course.
 
Hamez_boi said:
what's the diff between laser beam rider and wire guided
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A wire-guided missile receives control commands up a trailing wire.

A beam-rider tries to keep itself within a beam directed at the target.

Hamez_boi said:
and what's on tracked rapier?
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SACLOS - Semi-Active Command Line of Sight, via (initially) the standard Rapier optical tracker and tracking camera. The operator manually keeps the tracker on the target, system generates steering commands for the missile based on the difference between the Optical Tracker and the tracking camera, which follows a flare on the rear of the missile. The steering commands are then transmitted to the missile by radio link.

Hamez_boi said:
FLIR in the FCS could work?
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You need something to tell you where to point the IR tracker, hence radar.
 
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Hamez_boi said:
can the ADATS fire TOW missiles?
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ADATS is a beam rider, TOW is wire-guided, so no. You need compatible guidance systems, not just physical size.

Hamez_boi said:
also there's the HATM, which is also 152.4mm, designed to be compatible with a modified TOW system. It seems like it'd go great with ADATS for killing helis... if it's compatible, of course.
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HATM died in 2002, apparently before selecting a guidance system, the Canadians axed ADATS in 2012. They're both scrap metal.
 
DWG said:
HATM died in 2002, apparently before selecting a guidance system, the Canadians axed ADATS in 2012. They're both scrap metal.
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I mean, according to andreas there were tests, but idk how far it got along. It would've been cool to see HATM on the ADATS because it'd be great for anti-tank and anti-helicopter duties.
DWG said:
SACLOS - Semi-Active Command Line of Sight, via (initially) the standard Rapier optical tracker and tracking camera.
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So wireless guiding, as in wire guided but RF?

(This talks about TOW RF either way; it could be HATM or the leftovers from it.)
 
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Hamez_boi said:
(This talks about TOW RF either way; it could be HATM or the leftovers from it.)
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TOW RF is very simple; the RF link literally fits in the same place the wire dispenser sits and sends the same steering signals.

I was surprised to discover that the RF link for TOW wasn't developed to meet some operational need. It's just that the one company that made the wire for TOW decided to get out of the business and rather than reproduce the manufacturing capacity, the Army decided it was cheaper to just replace the wire with a radio.
 
TomS said:
TOW RF is very simple; the RF link literally fits in the same place the wire dispenser sits and sends the same steering signals.
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Wow, that's way simpler than what I was expecting!



TomS said:
I was surprised to discover that the RF link for TOW wasn't developed to meet some operational need. It's just that the one company that made the wire for TOW decided to get out of the business and rather than reproduce the manufacturing capacity, the Army decided it was cheaper to just replace the wire with a radio.
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Surprised that it wasn't replaced with fiber optics.

Or was that wrong time of development?
 
Scott Kenny said:
Surprised that it wasn't replaced with fiber optics.

Or was that wrong time of development?
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Fiber definitely existed -- TOW RF was c 2004, long after missiles like FOG-M. But RF was apparently simpler. Fiber is digital, which means you'd need to put A-D converters at both ends. I strongly suspect that the RF signal is analog AM, just like the wire signals.
 
TomS said:
Fiber definitely existed -- TOW RF was c 2004, long after missiles like FOG-M. But RF was apparently simpler. Fiber is digital, which means you'd need to put A-D converters at both ends. I strongly suspect that the RF signal is analog AM, just like the wire signals.
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Ah.

The simplicity of analog AM just like the wire systems makes a lot of sense for why the Army went to RF instead of fiber.
 
Also having an RF link instead of wire or fibre removes range and speed limitations inherent with a physically link.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Except that AM RF link means you can jam the command signals.
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There are other modulation formats that are more difficult to jam also either a coded radar or laser beam-rider system could be used.
 
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NMaude said:
There are other modulation formats that are more difficult to jam also either a coded radar or laser beam-rider system could be used.
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Hamez_boi said:
Directional RF would also work, but the target would be alerted to being aimed at
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Remember, we're talking (on this tangent) about TOW RF, where literally the only change was to substitute a radio receiver for a wire spool, within the exact same form factor. Whatever signal comes out of that radio needs to be exactly the same is the signal sent by the wires, because that signal is directly driving the deflection of the control surfaces. TOW RF is still a fairly basic SACLOS system, and anything more complicated is a fundamental redesign. That's CCMS-H, which is way more complicated than a simple and cheap cleanup of TOW.
 
70mm rockets will still ruin a tank's day. With modern guidance options, they are a very versatile, quite affordable option.
 

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