• Hi Guest! Forum rules have been updated. All users please read here.

AH-64 Apache Projects

yasotay

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
106
I do agree that the missile is slow, but then AGM-114 is no dragster either. Not all of its targets are APS equipped. Bottom-line: Spike NLOS is in use and has far better reach than anything currently used on the AH-64. Standing off well beyond the range of the tactical ADA making things go away in front of the ground forces. It is what the aircraft was designed to do. It has done so for some time now. Given that night courts are now in vogue with the US DoD, it is hard to see funding for a new tactical missile in the US Army funding portfolio.
 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,382
Reaction score
43
Lacking any confidence in current Army technical leadership.... until attack helicopters are dropping from European skies nothing will change. The only targets that matter are mobile ADA and APS equipped tanks. Europe is too vast to depend and logistics to agile and concealed to depend on logistics interdiction to save your bacon in a European threatre.

Cant win with 70s tech, and it is especailly disappointing when at least 90s tech was once presented.

Nostalgia combines regularly with manifest respectability to give credence to old error as opposed to new truth.
John Kenneth Galbraith
 
Last edited:

yasotay

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
106
Not sure I am tracking your intent. Having done the job I can tell you having to duck behind granite clouds constantly makes it difficult to execute the mission. Being able to stand off and deal with tactical ADA OUT OF THEIR RANGE as well as the main guns on most tanks seems a splendid idea (which is why we did AGM-114 in the first place). I have always found it mildly comical when we ascribe perfection to threat capabilities while demanding that ours are tremendously outdated. A natural logic to espouse shinny new things are always best. I am as motivated as anyone to have new and improved capabilities, but since it takes a few years to do so, I have no problem with getting a new capability even if it is not brand new.
 

bobbymike

CLEARANCE: Above Top Secret
Joined
Apr 21, 2009
Messages
9,158
Reaction score
234
Not sure I am tracking your intent. Having done the job I can tell you having to duck behind granite clouds constantly makes it difficult to execute the mission. Being able to stand off and deal with tactical ADA OUT OF THEIR RANGE as well as the main guns on most tanks seems a splendid idea (which is why we did AGM-114 in the first place). I have always found it mildly comical when we ascribe perfection to threat capabilities while demanding that ours are tremendously outdated. A natural logic to espouse shinny new things are always best. I am as motivated as anyone to have new and improved capabilities, but since it takes a few years to do so, I have no problem with getting a new capability even if it is not brand new.
Wasn’t there footage of Israeli Delilahs taking out Syrian ADA gliding in for the kill?
 

marauder2048

"I should really just relax"
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
2,332
Reaction score
78
With all of the investments in improving the all weather capability of Apache (RFI, FCR) adopting a weapon that isn't
strikes me as retrograde. And while APS isn't common, infrared obscurants are more common than MMW obscurants.
 

yasotay

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
106
The intent is not to have a "one size fits all" weapon, but one that can provide some level of capability as part of a Joint and Combine Arms operation. I am not a radar specialist but unless radar energy can go around corners they have a horizon as well. Depending on how high you fly the higher the probability you are going to be acquired goes up. So to see far you have to go higher. The higher you go to see further, the more ADA systems can see you. I guess I would prefer to have a missile now that is proven to work, while the smart people come up with something better. Preferably something that fits the Army budget.
 

Colonial-Marine

Fighting the UAV mafia.
Joined
Oct 5, 2009
Messages
640
Reaction score
12
Seems Spike NLOS would be useful for striking specific targets that otherwise would be out of reach, but its utility in that role would definately be limited by the subsonic speed of the missile. The laser and MMW radar guided Hellfires are probably better suited to smashing tanks though.
 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,382
Reaction score
43
Not sure I am tracking your intent. Having done the job I can tell you having to duck behind granite clouds constantly makes it difficult to execute the mission. Being able to stand off and deal with tactical ADA OUT OF THEIR RANGE as well as the main guns on most tanks seems a splendid idea (which is why we did AGM-114 in the first place). I have always found it mildly comical when we ascribe perfection to threat capabilities while demanding that ours are tremendously outdated. A natural logic to espouse shinny new things are always best. I am as motivated as anyone to have new and improved capabilities, but since it takes a few years to do so, I have no problem with getting a new capability even if it is not brand new.
pretty sure you haven't flown against a contemporary ADA including drones, fighter planes, AA guided high speed tank missile/rds, ever more capable APS of the next 20yrs etc. New game, needs a ramjet and or high speed HARM.

One would find it less than comical when they were shot down, after listening to 70s think, a jokish pompous response.

Admitting Hellfire is slow then your defending it. Make up your mind.

"Army budget" is contractor lark lingo for killing pilots/tankers/troops w their inferior, unevolved technology, Padding pocket books while sitting on their thumb.

A new capabilty which is proven but purpose-less where it matters, is a waste of the "Army budget". ATVs w/ Spikes would be just fine against desert rabble.
 
Last edited:

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,382
Reaction score
43
The intent is not to have a "one size fits all" weapon, but one that can provide some level of capability as part of a Joint and Combine Arms operation. I am not a radar specialist but unless radar energy can go around corners they have a horizon as well. Depending on how high you fly the higher the probability you are going to be acquired goes up. So to see far you have to go higher. The higher you go to see further, the more ADA systems can see you. I guess I would prefer to have a missile now that is proven to work, while the smart people come up with something better. Preferably something that fits the Army budget.
Even the tankbreaker mini missiles of the 90s could acquire their own targets. Not to much to ask of a contractor to develop a missile not requiring any craft exposure. ,..was under the impression MMW Hellfire already had this ability. Fire it in the heading the Longbow determines it cleared obstacles and found the target. Something apparently, according to the latest AW&ST the Mil-28 is still having problems w/. Reguardless more speed and range are needed, especailly if a new super 64 is in the works. The Hellfire will degrade the helicopter's capability.
 

marauder2048

"I should really just relax"
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
2,332
Reaction score
78
I could also see a case where the improvements to the RFI and the FCR are permitting detection/IDing/tracks well
outside JAGM increment ranges especially as the Army has apparently prioritized the IM motor in the near term.
 

yasotay

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
106
JSport -since you clearly have vastly more experiance with helicopter combat, having flown the aircraft, and are clearly far more versed on the capabilities and limitations of modern combat systems, I will defer to your well articulated argument.

Marauder2048- much work has been done on integration of multi-source targeting and the fusion of that data both on and offboard the aircraft.
 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,382
Reaction score
43
I could also see a case where the improvements to the RFI and the FCR are permitting detection/IDing/tracks well
outside JAGM increment ranges especially as the Army has apparently prioritized the IM motor in the near term.
Though JAGM was and most likely is still a faught program, yes, one would hope an understanding of the need for range extended and speedy missiles which can defeat the likely evolving APS, is a start.

PS: could you please inform on "IM motor"?
 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,382
Reaction score
43
AGM-114T Tango

is not a sleek ARM nor a ramjet which could use the improved rocket and air breath for range, so sceptical.
 

kaiserd

I really should change my personal text
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2013
Messages
753
Reaction score
89
Given the almost zero chance that an Apache will be armed with a ramjet powered missile and that a dedicated ARM is almost as unlikely (certainly not a particularly high priority) perhaps the discussion is best focused back on the actual topic; “AH-64 Apache Projects”.
 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,382
Reaction score
43
This is not a forum for personal vendettas.


The Apache's armament defines it's purpose. The disfunction in DoD is well known and a major topic of this entire forum.
 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,382
Reaction score
43
Such weapons could well exist as Norden is part of UTC and many secret capabilities may be on a self, as revealing them would lead to countermeasures.
 

Forest Green

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jun 11, 2019
Messages
443
Reaction score
118
Though JAGM was and most likely is still a faught program, yes, one would hope an understanding of the need for range extended and speedy missiles which can defeat the likely evolving APS, is a start.

PS: could you please inform on "IM motor"?
This isn't a sales pitch, but an extended range Hellfire-based missile with IM motor and SAL/MMW already exists, and it's been successfully trialled on the Apache.
 

kaiserd

I really should change my personal text
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2013
Messages
753
Reaction score
89
Though JAGM was and most likely is still a faught program, yes, one would hope an understanding of the need for range extended and speedy missiles which can defeat the likely evolving APS, is a start.

PS: could you please inform on "IM motor"?
This isn't a sales pitch, but an extended range Hellfire-based missile with IM motor and SAL/MMW already exists, and it's been successfully trialled on the Apache.
Are UK AH-64E’s going to be armed with a version of the Brimstone or have they gone with a Hellfire variant?
 

kaiserd

I really should change my personal text
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2013
Messages
753
Reaction score
89
Though JAGM was and most likely is still a faught program, yes, one would hope an understanding of the need for range extended and speedy missiles which can defeat the likely evolving APS, is a start.

PS: could you please inform on "IM motor"?
This isn't a sales pitch, but an extended range Hellfire-based missile with IM motor and SAL/MMW already exists, and it's been successfully trialled on the Apache.
Are UK AH-64E’s going to be armed with a version of the Brimstone or have they gone with a Hellfire variant?
Brimstone III, apparently;
 

marauder2048

"I should really just relax"
Joined
Nov 19, 2013
Messages
2,332
Reaction score
78
Brimstone III, apparently;
The curious lack of an actual integration contract is...curious.
 

Forest Green

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jun 11, 2019
Messages
443
Reaction score
118
The curious lack of an actual integration contract is...curious.
The UK never does anything fast but the Brimstone II is already successfully deployed on Tornado and Typhoon and is tested from land, sea and air... probably over-tested if anything. The combat Pk is something like 98.7%, so accurate in testing that the inert missiles usually hit the top of the target vehicle's gear stick.
 

Forest Green

CLEARANCE: Secret
Joined
Jun 11, 2019
Messages
443
Reaction score
118
FMS contract approval announcement for MQ-9B: Nov 2016
Brimstone integration contract announcement for MQ-9B: Jan 2019
Maybe funding is a factor, it usually is. One could argue that the Apache manages fine with what it's got and as a ground-hugger the extra range isn't as useful, so the MQ-9 integration got priority. I would like to see it on the Apache though, it could prove useful in a more serious theatre of war against short-range SAM systems. It also has some useful abilities in terms of autonomous acquisition of targets using the MMW following loft trajectory firings over hills/mountains.
 

AN/AWW-14(V)

CLEARANCE: Confidential
Joined
May 18, 2019
Messages
126
Reaction score
143


This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 1500x1084.



symposium apache update - Quad-a.org


While the US Army steps up the pace of its aviation modernisation plan for the battlefield of 2030 and beyond, the service is concurrently enabling its legacy fleet – the AH-64E APACHE in particular – to be a more lethal and capable weapons platform well into the next decade.

The upcoming Version 6 (V6) upgrade to the AH-64E will enhance many systems on the aircraft, including its weapon system sensor suite. Of significance, during the service’s recent Follow-On Test and Evaluation II of the V6 APACHE, Lockheed Martin’s Tom Eldredge (Director, APACHE Fire Control Programs) and Jim Messina (Director, LONGBOW Fire Control Radar), reported the attack helicopter demonstrated upgraded target acquisition capabilities, including the company’s Modernized Day Sensor Assembly (M-DSA), and the AN/APG-78 LONGBOW Fire Control Radar (FCR) from LONGBOW Limited Liability, a joint venture of Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman.

Providing enhanced situational awareness, the M-DSA capability included in the V6 upgrade helps APACHE pilots to see either colour or near-infrared, high-resolution imagery on cockpit displays, and allows them to accurately identify targets at greater standoff ranges using the ultra-narrow field-of-view and the extended range picture-in-picture capability,” the company told MON.

Additionally, the US Army recently awarded Lockheed Martin a $40.6 million (€36.9 million) contract to produce Modernized Turrets (M-TUR) for the AH-64E, another upgrade to the Modernized Target Acquisition Designation Sight/Pilot Night Vision System (M-TADS/PNVS) system, bringing enhanced operational and performance capabilities.

More specifically, the Version 6 APACHE will include 30 additional enhancements to FCR capabilities. These enhancements will provide new operational modes and capabilities, including maritime, single target track and 360° surveillance modes as well as extended detection range capability against land, air and sea targets. The V6 detection range has doubled, to 16km, along with improved detection of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV).

The company executives called attention to select FCR updates:

• Maritime Mode – detects surface targets as well as helicopter and fixed wing targets;
• Air Targeting Mode – adds detection of UAVs, automatic scanning of multiple elevations and improved target detection in adverse weather conditions;
• Single Target Track for Air, Ground and Maritime Targeting; and
• Extended Range (XR) – doubles Ground Targeting Mode, Air Targeting Mode and Maritime Mode range from 8 km to 16 km.


Lockheed Martin has invested in modifications across all its upgraded designs, including M-TUR and M-DSA, to enhance reliability and maintainability.

As previously alluded to, “M-DSA will be included in the V6 APACHE upgrade, further improving search, location, identification, targeting and engaging capabilities during both day and night operations. M-DSA allows APACHE pilots to identify and designate targets at longer ranges, increasing standoff […] The M-TUR upgrade noted earlier provides increased angular rates and accelerations, and allows for increased line-of-sight stabilization. In addition to sensor performance improvement, the new M-TUR design also improves turret reliability by 40 percent and reduces operation and support costs with a dramatic decrease in time required to conduct flight line maintenance – in some cases by more than 12 hours.”

Further, the M-TUR’s new design allows for:

• Subassembly replacement on the flight line, including higher reliability components that will improve aircraft availability; and
• Significant improvements to slew rate, helmet tracking and Built-In Testing (BIT).

 

jsport

I really should change my personal text
Joined
Jul 27, 2011
Messages
1,382
Reaction score
43


This image has been resized. Click this bar to view the full image. The original image is sized 1500x1084.



symposium apache update - Quad-a.org



While the US Army steps up the pace of its aviation modernisation plan for the battlefield of 2030 and beyond, the service is concurrently enabling its legacy fleet – the AH-64E APACHE in particular – to be a more lethal and capable weapons platform well into the next decade.

The upcoming Version 6 (V6) upgrade to the AH-64E will enhance many systems on the aircraft, including its weapon system sensor suite. Of significance, during the service’s recent Follow-On Test and Evaluation II of the V6 APACHE, Lockheed Martin’s Tom Eldredge (Director, APACHE Fire Control Programs) and Jim Messina (Director, LONGBOW Fire Control Radar), reported the attack helicopter demonstrated upgraded target acquisition capabilities, including the company’s Modernized Day Sensor Assembly (M-DSA), and the AN/APG-78 LONGBOW Fire Control Radar (FCR) from LONGBOW Limited Liability, a joint venture of Lockheed Martin and Northrop Grumman.

Providing enhanced situational awareness, the M-DSA capability included in the V6 upgrade helps APACHE pilots to see either colour or near-infrared, high-resolution imagery on cockpit displays, and allows them to accurately identify targets at greater standoff ranges using the ultra-narrow field-of-view and the extended range picture-in-picture capability,” the company told MON.

Additionally, the US Army recently awarded Lockheed Martin a $40.6 million (€36.9 million) contract to produce Modernized Turrets (M-TUR) for the AH-64E, another upgrade to the Modernized Target Acquisition Designation Sight/Pilot Night Vision System (M-TADS/PNVS) system, bringing enhanced operational and performance capabilities.

More specifically, the Version 6 APACHE will include 30 additional enhancements to FCR capabilities. These enhancements will provide new operational modes and capabilities, including maritime, single target track and 360° surveillance modes as well as extended detection range capability against land, air and sea targets. The V6 detection range has doubled, to 16km, along with improved detection of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAV).

The company executives called attention to select FCR updates:

• Maritime Mode – detects surface targets as well as helicopter and fixed wing targets;
• Air Targeting Mode – adds detection of UAVs, automatic scanning of multiple elevations and improved target detection in adverse weather conditions;
• Single Target Track for Air, Ground and Maritime Targeting; and
• Extended Range (XR) – doubles Ground Targeting Mode, Air Targeting Mode and Maritime Mode range from 8 km to 16 km.


Lockheed Martin has invested in modifications across all its upgraded designs, including M-TUR and M-DSA, to enhance reliability and maintainability.

As previously alluded to, “M-DSA will be included in the V6 APACHE upgrade, further improving search, location, identification, targeting and engaging capabilities during both day and night operations. M-DSA allows APACHE pilots to identify and designate targets at longer ranges, increasing standoff […] The M-TUR upgrade noted earlier provides increased angular rates and accelerations, and allows for increased line-of-sight stabilization. In addition to sensor performance improvement, the new M-TUR design also improves turret reliability by 40 percent and reduces operation and support costs with a dramatic decrease in time required to conduct flight line maintenance – in some cases by more than 12 hours.”

Further, the M-TUR’s new design allows for:

• Subassembly replacement on the flight line, including higher reliability components that will improve aircraft availability; and
• Significant improvements to slew rate, helmet tracking and Built-In Testing (BIT).

That kind of standoff is going to require a ramjet for high speed and standoff.
 

yasotay

CLEARANCE: Top Secret
Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2006
Messages
2,033
Reaction score
106
100% agree with jsport if you are shooting tanks. Not all things you might want to shoot have APS.
 

TomcatViP

Hellcat
Joined
Feb 12, 2017
Messages
1,009
Reaction score
65
It's a very good observation. I had to put some math to get the picture :oops:
 
Top