I would be very surprised if it was WMD given that it's an air-to-air long-range interceptor missile.
R-33, R-37 and R-72/KS-172S-1 ALRAAM missiles
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I would be very surprised if it was WMD given that it's an air-to-air long-range interceptor missile.
R-33 had a loft, but R-27ER did not.
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Aeria Gloria
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Btw, do you know whether KS-172 gone back to production?, allegedly they rearm Mig-31 with KS-172 in 2025, I haven't seen any photos of it though. Likely that the missile will be carried on the wing just like on su-35?
https://united24media.com/latest-ne...a-400km-missile-heres-what-it-can-strike-8517
Ainen
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It's a concept dead for decades. It was never meant for MiG-31, and Russia has taken an entirely different LRAAM path.
PL-17 is what KS-172 could've been.
I remember that Ka‑bot from YouTube said so.
The discussion on the forum is garbage. If there were any proof presented there, the discussion would end right away. Without the need to write hundreds of messages.
I know, that why it is such a big surprise for me to hear that they integrated it on Mig-31 just in 2025? maybe it a hoax similar to the rumor that they testing towed decoy on Mig-31?
R-37?
agree
Summary:
R-33/Izd 410 is about 500kg weight ( 497kg in fact), has single-chamber dual-phase solid fuel rocket engine with total burn time about 30sec and with controllable flight time of 60sec. I must admit that I also thought it has loft trajectory but it hasn't ,only straight flight one just like older R-40,than R-23/24 and of course R-27/E. In all videos which I 've found ,we can see that R-33 after catapult launch flies in a straight line.
From 18:40
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t25tDBZM7No
Another videos :
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZWZDgHPTgDU
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyeeFdgJlkg
From what we learned through the the time ,those number values like 90km,120km,160km ( many textual sources ,charts ,tables etc...) , I've already expressed my opinion that those values are only for the R-33 ,not for the modernised R-33S.
Based on what I could understand in the manuals for the Su-27SK and MiG-29, these are, in my opinion, the very possible max ( possible authorised) launch distances calculated by the radar's and WCS computer for a small, medium and big air target. In the case of some bigger and of course faster incoming target, 160km is quite possible max launch range for the old,basic R-33 concluded that 60 sec controllable flight time. If we count that max launch speed of one MiG-31BM can be 800m/s-900m/s and the rate of increase in speed of launched R-33 can be even 1000m/s or more (5.8M as min) ,than I think all of this is possible?
R-33S/Izd 520 is 520kg heavy ,modernised version from the mid 1980's. It has also INS+SARH guidance( not ARH) ,better stability and controllability with those destabilizers (forward 'fins'),shorter wings and a little bit different stabilizers.With the new autopilot and better control system this version got the 'loft' capability.
Some citations from one article about R-33S ( on the 2nd page) :
''In the mid-1980s, Vympel began modernizing the R-33 missile. According to customer requirements, it was to differ significantly from the baseline version by having an increased launch range, a heavier warhead, a more sophisticated control system, increased flight time, and a new propulsion system.
Serial production of the modernized R-33 missile was entrusted to the Tushino Machine-Building Plant. Preparations for this began in 1988, and for several years, the missiles were mass-produced. ''
For now we have only several pics of the R-33S and none video where we can see old MiG-31B/BS or newer BM with this version on the tarmac or in the flight or e.g during the launch.So R-33S can perform the same 'lofting' as US AAM's like AIM-7,AIM-54 and AIM-120.With this kind of flight ,I suppose AAM itself must be slower than in the case of flying in the straight line. At the end, it is logical. I also mentioned that letter 'S' does not mean Spetsialnaya or special ,meaning that it has nuclear warhead. I don't think that one AAM can have nuclear warhead 'cause missile itself than must be registered as a carrier of a nuclear warhead, that is, as a nuclear weapon according to agreements between the USSR/Russian Federation and the USA.
For all these decades,I've never find any accurate,real data of max possible launch range against some bigger/faster incoming target for the R-33S but for me it is very possible that taking into account loft capability and possible MiG-31B/BS/BM launch velocity and height ,it can be in the range 250-300km.
What I've found interesting with the 'lofting' AAMs is that they first go into a dive after launch than they go to climb/loft.I didn't see this possibility with the old R-33.
R-37M launched by the Su-35S, from 0:29
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm2odB-tp4s
AIM-54A launched by the F-14A( famous test 'six on six' from 1973)
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RKWwPbimgU
@Ronny
Instead of that canceled KS-172 ( R-72 as proposed military designation by some sources ), we have R-37M of course ( MiG-31BM,Su-30SM2 and Su-35S and IAF Su-30MKI for now) .Quite a nice 400km as max launch range....
R-33/Izd 410 is about 500kg weight ( 497kg in fact), has single-chamber dual-phase solid fuel rocket engine with total burn time about 30sec and with controllable flight time of 60sec. I must admit that I also thought it has loft trajectory but it hasn't ,only straight flight one just like older R-40,than R-23/24 and of course R-27/E. In all videos which I 've found ,we can see that R-33 after catapult launch flies in a straight line.
From 18:40
Another videos :
From what we learned through the the time ,those number values like 90km,120km,160km ( many textual sources ,charts ,tables etc...) , I've already expressed my opinion that those values are only for the R-33 ,not for the modernised R-33S.
Based on what I could understand in the manuals for the Su-27SK and MiG-29, these are, in my opinion, the very possible max ( possible authorised) launch distances calculated by the radar's and WCS computer for a small, medium and big air target. In the case of some bigger and of course faster incoming target, 160km is quite possible max launch range for the old,basic R-33 concluded that 60 sec controllable flight time. If we count that max launch speed of one MiG-31BM can be 800m/s-900m/s and the rate of increase in speed of launched R-33 can be even 1000m/s or more (5.8M as min) ,than I think all of this is possible?
R-33S/Izd 520 is 520kg heavy ,modernised version from the mid 1980's. It has also INS+SARH guidance( not ARH) ,better stability and controllability with those destabilizers (forward 'fins'),shorter wings and a little bit different stabilizers.With the new autopilot and better control system this version got the 'loft' capability.
Some citations from one article about R-33S ( on the 2nd page) :
''In the mid-1980s, Vympel began modernizing the R-33 missile. According to customer requirements, it was to differ significantly from the baseline version by having an increased launch range, a heavier warhead, a more sophisticated control system, increased flight time, and a new propulsion system.
Serial production of the modernized R-33 missile was entrusted to the Tushino Machine-Building Plant. Preparations for this began in 1988, and for several years, the missiles were mass-produced. ''
For now we have only several pics of the R-33S and none video where we can see old MiG-31B/BS or newer BM with this version on the tarmac or in the flight or e.g during the launch.So R-33S can perform the same 'lofting' as US AAM's like AIM-7,AIM-54 and AIM-120.With this kind of flight ,I suppose AAM itself must be slower than in the case of flying in the straight line. At the end, it is logical. I also mentioned that letter 'S' does not mean Spetsialnaya or special ,meaning that it has nuclear warhead. I don't think that one AAM can have nuclear warhead 'cause missile itself than must be registered as a carrier of a nuclear warhead, that is, as a nuclear weapon according to agreements between the USSR/Russian Federation and the USA.
For all these decades,I've never find any accurate,real data of max possible launch range against some bigger/faster incoming target for the R-33S but for me it is very possible that taking into account loft capability and possible MiG-31B/BS/BM launch velocity and height ,it can be in the range 250-300km.
What I've found interesting with the 'lofting' AAMs is that they first go into a dive after launch than they go to climb/loft.I didn't see this possibility with the old R-33.
R-37M launched by the Su-35S, from 0:29
AIM-54A launched by the F-14A( famous test 'six on six' from 1973)
@Ronny
Instead of that canceled KS-172 ( R-72 as proposed military designation by some sources ), we have R-37M of course ( MiG-31BM,Su-30SM2 and Su-35S and IAF Su-30MKI for now) .Quite a nice 400km as max launch range....
1) Apparently, R‑33 originally had the logic of a loft. That’s what those who know the subject say.
2) You’re known here as someone who likes to flood the thread,by fantasizing and mixing facts with their own assumptions,
posting more and more new meaningless messages and ignoring logic and common sense. At the same time, you know practically nothing.
Aeria Gloria
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The main discussion was between me and Squirrel. Squirrel realized that the original versiom didn’t have loft. I don’t always agree with Squirrel but atleast this debate had a conclusion and Squirrel posts and translate lots of good information and videos on many many topics.
If R-33S does loft, that also complicates matters.
You could even skip the posts of people you don’t like.
No one is going to re tread this debate succinctly for you here other then the “no loft” you already received.
No one is perfect, Ka-bot doesn’t know everything, I’m sure he’s said things in video he later learned were not correct like all YouTubers. Saying it had loft “originally” could also have implied it was desired but not implemented or removed at some point.
If you knew “why” he thought that and it brought some new information to light, that would be worth discussing
There is no benefit to loft a missile that has similar aerodynamics and deltav as AIM-54 for only 60s flight time, for reference the AIM-54 Phoenix can fly for 200 seconds. Read the previous pages to find out why we think this if that’s not enough or even search by “loft.”
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Of course no one is perfect, but it’s obvious that Ka-bot knows much more about Russian and Soviet technologies. As for you, you don’t even know that the Phoenix doesn’t fly for 200 seconds, but only for 160.
It makes sense for the AA or SA missile to make a loft regardless of the flight time — whether it’s 60 seconds or 160. 60 seconds is a long time, during which the missile can fly very far if it goes to the loft. When the S‑300P shoots down a target at a range of 40 km at an altitude of 5 km, it moving towards the target in an arc rises to a height of up to 10 km — despite the fact that the flight time is less than 40 seconds.
''В 1969-1970-м гг. два пассажирских самолёта Ту-104 были переоборудованы в летающие лаборатории. Работы по созданию лабораторий были проведены в рамках темы "Заслон" - создания истребителя-перехватчика МиГ-31. На обоих самолётах разместили радиолокационные станции, впоследствии, на Ту-104ЛЛ-2 был установлен и пилон для подвески ракеты Р-33. В 1975-м году самолёт участвовал в испытаниях УР Р-33, произведя при этом два пуска ракеты. Самолёт Ту-104ЛЛ-2 использовался до конца 70-х гг., после чего был передан для переоборудования в метеолабораторию.''
''In 1969–1970, two Tu-104 passenger aircraft were converted into flying laboratories. This work was carried out as part of the "Zaslon" project—the development of the MiG-31 interceptor. Both aircraft were equipped with radar systems; subsequently, the Tu-104LL-2 was also fitted with a pylon for carrying the R-33 missile. In 1975, the aircraft participated in trials of the R-33 guided missile, conducting two test launches. The Tu-104LL-2 remained in service until the late 1970s, after which it was transferred for conversion into a meteorological laboratory.''
Source: https://477768.livejournal.com/6072317.html
''С самолета-лаборатории Ту-104 были проведены даже первые управляемые пуски ракет К-33, правда, с рельсовым стартом. Близость конструктивного облика и характеристик Е-155МП и МиГ-25П позволили развернуть отработку катапультного старта ракет К-33 на самолете-лаборатории МиГ-25П-10 на реальных скоростях и высотах с опережением по отношению к постройке реальных опытных самолетов Е-155МП. В ходе летных испытаний, проведенных в 1975-1980 гг. была отработана конструкция оперения, исключающая возможность возникновения флаттера, система управления ракетой в широком диапазоне высот, помехозащита головки самонаведения, работоспособность системы управления и радиовзрывательного устройства на фоне земной поверхности на предельно малых высотах. Первая самолетная мишень МиГ-17 была сбита 26 марта 1976 г. до того пуски велись по парашютным мишеням ПР''
''The first guided launches of K-33 missiles—albeit using rail launchers—were even conducted from a Tu-104 flying laboratory. The similarity in design and performance characteristics between the E-155MP and the MiG-25P made it possible to begin testing the K-33’s ejection-launch system on the MiG-25P-10 flying laboratory at actual speeds and altitudes, ahead of the construction of the actual E-155MP prototypes. Flight tests conducted between 1975 and 1980 validated the fin design (eliminating the risk of flutter), the missile control system across a wide altitude range, the homing head's resistance to countermeasures, and the functionality of the control system and radio proximity fuze against ground clutter at extremely low altitudes. The first MiG-17 aerial target was shot down on March 26, 1976; prior to that, launches had been conducted against parachute targets.''
Source: https://www.airwar.ru/weapon/avv/r33.html
Ту-104А / Ту-104ЛЛ
''Борт был оборудован специальным подфюзеляжным пилоном под подвеску тяжёлых ракет К-33 (Р-33), а также агрегатами станции «Заслон», включая два ветрогенератора и заборник системы охлаждения аппаратуры под фюзеляжем за нишей шасси.В 1975 году с этого самолёта было успешно выполнено два уникальных пуска ракеты Р-33.''
''The aircraft was equipped with a special under-fuselage pylon for carrying heavy K-33 (R-33) missiles, as well as components of the "Zaslon" system—including two wind-driven generators and an equipment cooling system intake located under the fuselage aft of the landing gear bay.In 1975, two unique launches of the R-33 missile were successfully carried out from this aircraft.''
''In 1969–1970, two Tu-104 passenger aircraft were converted into flying laboratories. This work was carried out as part of the "Zaslon" project—the development of the MiG-31 interceptor. Both aircraft were equipped with radar systems; subsequently, the Tu-104LL-2 was also fitted with a pylon for carrying the R-33 missile. In 1975, the aircraft participated in trials of the R-33 guided missile, conducting two test launches. The Tu-104LL-2 remained in service until the late 1970s, after which it was transferred for conversion into a meteorological laboratory.''
Source: https://477768.livejournal.com/6072317.html
''С самолета-лаборатории Ту-104 были проведены даже первые управляемые пуски ракет К-33, правда, с рельсовым стартом. Близость конструктивного облика и характеристик Е-155МП и МиГ-25П позволили развернуть отработку катапультного старта ракет К-33 на самолете-лаборатории МиГ-25П-10 на реальных скоростях и высотах с опережением по отношению к постройке реальных опытных самолетов Е-155МП. В ходе летных испытаний, проведенных в 1975-1980 гг. была отработана конструкция оперения, исключающая возможность возникновения флаттера, система управления ракетой в широком диапазоне высот, помехозащита головки самонаведения, работоспособность системы управления и радиовзрывательного устройства на фоне земной поверхности на предельно малых высотах. Первая самолетная мишень МиГ-17 была сбита 26 марта 1976 г. до того пуски велись по парашютным мишеням ПР''
''The first guided launches of K-33 missiles—albeit using rail launchers—were even conducted from a Tu-104 flying laboratory. The similarity in design and performance characteristics between the E-155MP and the MiG-25P made it possible to begin testing the K-33’s ejection-launch system on the MiG-25P-10 flying laboratory at actual speeds and altitudes, ahead of the construction of the actual E-155MP prototypes. Flight tests conducted between 1975 and 1980 validated the fin design (eliminating the risk of flutter), the missile control system across a wide altitude range, the homing head's resistance to countermeasures, and the functionality of the control system and radio proximity fuze against ground clutter at extremely low altitudes. The first MiG-17 aerial target was shot down on March 26, 1976; prior to that, launches had been conducted against parachute targets.''
Source: https://www.airwar.ru/weapon/avv/r33.html
Ту-104А / Ту-104ЛЛ
''Борт был оборудован специальным подфюзеляжным пилоном под подвеску тяжёлых ракет К-33 (Р-33), а также агрегатами станции «Заслон», включая два ветрогенератора и заборник системы охлаждения аппаратуры под фюзеляжем за нишей шасси.В 1975 году с этого самолёта было успешно выполнено два уникальных пуска ракеты Р-33.''
''The aircraft was equipped with a special under-fuselage pylon for carrying heavy K-33 (R-33) missiles, as well as components of the "Zaslon" system—including two wind-driven generators and an equipment cooling system intake located under the fuselage aft of the landing gear bay.In 1975, two unique launches of the R-33 missile were successfully carried out from this aircraft.''
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Basic R-33 ,not R-33S , than one 'half a tone monster' has the same max possible launch ranges like 160+kg heavy AIM-120C/D ( 120km/160km).I doubt it.
Again, I also thought that but overscan and you provided proof it was wrong. Now if basic R-33 has really loft capability than those known launch ranges are much greater,must be. 350kg heavy R-27ER, max launch range against some bigger incoming target =130 km, 500kg heavy R-33 max =160km ? Both missiles have 60 sec controllable flight time.Rocket engine burn time? R-27ER =10 sec with very big t/w ratio (boost phase works only 2 sec with 7500 kgf of thrust) , R-33 ≤ 30sec.
Aeria Gloria
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Thanks for letting me now, neither Ka-bot or I really research or specialize in NATO airframes, so yes, I know hardly anything about AIM-54 that a well read enthusiast wouldn’t know.
Makes sense ≠ evidence or proof
Lots of things make sense, like prioritizing a straight flight profile for maximum average speed.
You could say same of R-27R/ER, a later missile by Vympel considered by them to be a modern generation and it doesn’t loft with 60s flight time. Neither does R-77 RVV-AE and it can fly for much longer.
No other Soviet air to air missile lofts and the air to ground missiles are using a less then optimized trajectory that focuses on being able to loft without range information.
Vympel just was not lofting air to air missiles until later. Especially as the Soviet air to air doctrine heavily focused on defeating NATO missiles that were usually longer ranged (R-23R vs AIM-7E, R-27R/24R vs AIM-7F/M, R-33 vs AIM-54) by having a missile that was faster and able to destroy the enemy plane before the enemy missile reached the target.
A loft will slow down the missile, increasing Time of Flight. It’s not always significant, but it always is if you are doing anything but the gentlest curve.
As the missile is slower from lofting, it flies more efficiently allowing it to fly for longer (note: during a max range launch at high altitude, the R-27R/ER/33 is still going Mach 2+ at impact at 58-59s), at ranges that are already at the limit of their carrier plane’s radar for fighter sized targets.
So it would barely benefit or largely hurt the Soviet BVR strategy with the limits of the 60s turbo generator and aircraft radars having little more then 100-120 km range against fighters and little more then 20-40 km at altitude.
What advantage do you expect to have? And like we said, if you read the pages before this we discussed the exact same thing there.
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Another video where we can see launching of the multiple R-33's. Title isn't right because it was one exercise of the 865th Red Banner Fighter Aviation Regiment from the Yelizovo AB of the MA VMF with its basic MiG-31 and MiG-31BM. There is another video ( FB) with better and wider angle and we can see MiG-31/BM which launched four basic R-33's. I hope I will find it.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG_neZr-hho&t=25s
It will be very interesting if we found one video where we can see lofted trajectory after R-33 is launched.
@Ronny
Some details about the KS-172 :
''Ракета "воздух-воздух" сверхбольшой дальности КС-172 / AAM-L. Разработка ракеты с использованием наработок по ракете 3М83 комплекса ПВО С-300В начата МКБ "Новатор" (г.Свердловск, ныне - Екатеринбург) в 1991 г. Макет ракеты под названием AAM-L (Air-Air-Missile - Long range) впервые продемонстрирован в 1993 г. Надо отметить, что наименование латиницей НЕ является западным наименованием ракеты - большинство источников тут не правы - это наименование дано ракете для представления на международных выставках вооружений. По неподтвержденным данным наземные испытания ракеты - вероятно бросковые пуски - осуществлялись в 1993 г. По данным на 2001 г. программа создания КС-172 не является приоритетной для ВВС России, а в декабре 2003 г. на авиашоу в Дубае впервые представлена экспортная модификация ракеты - КС-172С-1 - с измененной конструкцией.''
''The KS-172 / AAM-L is an ultra-long-range air-to-air missile. Development of the missile—utilizing design elements from the 3M83 missile used in the S-300V air defense system—was initiated by the Novator Design Bureau (Sverdlovsk, now Yekaterinburg) in 1991. A mockup of the missile, designated AAM-L (Air-to-Air Missile – Long Range), was first displayed in 1993. It should be noted that this Latin-script designation is *not* a Western designation for the missile—contrary to the claims of most sources—but rather a name assigned to it for presentation at international arms exhibitions. According to unconfirmed reports, ground tests of the missile (likely ejection tests) were conducted in 1993.
As of 2001, the KS-172 development program was not a priority for the Russian Air Force; however, in December 2003, an export variant of the missile—the KS-172S-1, featuring a modified design—was unveiled at the Dubai Airshow.''
Source: https://militaryrussia.livejournal.com/tag/КС-172/
''В условиях недостаточного финансирования российские ВВС предпочли использование разработанной ещё до распада СССР ракеты Р-37. На это повлияли испытания 1994 года, когда был проведён успешный перехват ракетой Р-37 воздушной цели на дальности 300 км, сравнимой с возможностями КС-172. Таким образом, российские ВВС, имеющие на вооружении большое количество перехватчиков МиГ-31, могли эффективно решать все задачи защиты и контроля воздушного пространства, а потому не испытывали острой потребности в более дальнобойных ракетах.''
''Faced with limited funding, the Russian Air Force opted to use the R-37 missile, which had been developed prior to the collapse of the USSR. This decision was influenced by 1994 trials, during which an R-37 successfully intercepted an aerial target at a range of 300 km—performance comparable to that of the KS-172. Consequently, with a large fleet of MiG-31 interceptors already in service, the Russian Air Force was able to effectively handle all tasks related to airspace defense and control, and thus felt no urgent need for longer-range missiles.''
Source: https://missilery.info/missile/kc-172
It will be very interesting if we found one video where we can see lofted trajectory after R-33 is launched.
@Ronny
Some details about the KS-172 :
''Ракета "воздух-воздух" сверхбольшой дальности КС-172 / AAM-L. Разработка ракеты с использованием наработок по ракете 3М83 комплекса ПВО С-300В начата МКБ "Новатор" (г.Свердловск, ныне - Екатеринбург) в 1991 г. Макет ракеты под названием AAM-L (Air-Air-Missile - Long range) впервые продемонстрирован в 1993 г. Надо отметить, что наименование латиницей НЕ является западным наименованием ракеты - большинство источников тут не правы - это наименование дано ракете для представления на международных выставках вооружений. По неподтвержденным данным наземные испытания ракеты - вероятно бросковые пуски - осуществлялись в 1993 г. По данным на 2001 г. программа создания КС-172 не является приоритетной для ВВС России, а в декабре 2003 г. на авиашоу в Дубае впервые представлена экспортная модификация ракеты - КС-172С-1 - с измененной конструкцией.''
''The KS-172 / AAM-L is an ultra-long-range air-to-air missile. Development of the missile—utilizing design elements from the 3M83 missile used in the S-300V air defense system—was initiated by the Novator Design Bureau (Sverdlovsk, now Yekaterinburg) in 1991. A mockup of the missile, designated AAM-L (Air-to-Air Missile – Long Range), was first displayed in 1993. It should be noted that this Latin-script designation is *not* a Western designation for the missile—contrary to the claims of most sources—but rather a name assigned to it for presentation at international arms exhibitions. According to unconfirmed reports, ground tests of the missile (likely ejection tests) were conducted in 1993.
As of 2001, the KS-172 development program was not a priority for the Russian Air Force; however, in December 2003, an export variant of the missile—the KS-172S-1, featuring a modified design—was unveiled at the Dubai Airshow.''
Source: https://militaryrussia.livejournal.com/tag/КС-172/
''В условиях недостаточного финансирования российские ВВС предпочли использование разработанной ещё до распада СССР ракеты Р-37. На это повлияли испытания 1994 года, когда был проведён успешный перехват ракетой Р-37 воздушной цели на дальности 300 км, сравнимой с возможностями КС-172. Таким образом, российские ВВС, имеющие на вооружении большое количество перехватчиков МиГ-31, могли эффективно решать все задачи защиты и контроля воздушного пространства, а потому не испытывали острой потребности в более дальнобойных ракетах.''
''Faced with limited funding, the Russian Air Force opted to use the R-37 missile, which had been developed prior to the collapse of the USSR. This decision was influenced by 1994 trials, during which an R-37 successfully intercepted an aerial target at a range of 300 km—performance comparable to that of the KS-172. Consequently, with a large fleet of MiG-31 interceptors already in service, the Russian Air Force was able to effectively handle all tasks related to airspace defense and control, and thus felt no urgent need for longer-range missiles.''
Source: https://missilery.info/missile/kc-172
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At a long distance, the loft makes the missile faster, not slower.
Ka-bot had a video with a graph showing the Phoenix’s speed. Without the loft, half a minute after the engine was shut down, it lost speed from Mach 3.4 to Mach 1. This is despite the fact that the launch altitude was very high (14 km). With the loft, it maintained Mach 3+ over a distance of over 100 km (as far as I remember). Now I can’t find that video on Youtube. The same will happen with the R‑33. Without a loft, it won’t fly further than 40–50 km.
Again: For a long range AAM loft=speed
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MiG-31 launch long-range missiles to shoot down low-flying targets Anadyr Chukotka
https://rutube.ru/video/5592ac61d7dc4af3d5cde9d56a48c7e4/
It was MiG-31BM '31 blue' with the old R-33's in the exercise of the intercepting incoming supersonic cruise ASM type 3M54/P-700 'Granit' launched from the sub.MiG-31 took off from the Anadir airport.
'Loft' or no 'loft' ?
About the max speed of the AAM's. Even that 'Ka-bot 15A' mentioned that old Soviet R-40 was faster than AIM-54 at height over 20km ( video will be posted on the R-40 thread) .
In fact ,R-40 is about 1000km/h faster than Phoenix as he mentioned. R-40 flew only in straight line and AIM-54 could loft (longer range engagment). So in this case, loft capable AIM-54 is slower then R-40 in higher stratosphere.
As far as I know ( from some sources), max achievable speed of AIM-54 during many tests was 4.3M. On the other side, R-40 could reach max speed almost 6M. R-40R/RD with its 40sec of controlled flight can engage target from about 60km (max).
We must keep on mind that MiG-25 and 31 could/can launch R-40&R-33 in the speed range as max : 2500-3000km/h. F-14 and 15 could/can not do something like that. Also both Soviet interceptors can launch their long range AAM's from above 20km .Both US fighters can't do that.Launch speed is the first speed of the launched missile.
So ,R-33 has 60s of controllable flight time ( just like R-27ER), AIM-54 has 160sec. It is more than twice in favour of the Phoenix. Max launch range ever achieved with AIM-54A was from Jan 1979 during one IRIAF exercise, it was 244km. 80km was achieved during Nov 1973 'six on six' test and 204km during April 1973 launch test ( missile reached about 30km of height). So with 160sec controlled flight and lofting, it is possible to engage incoming target in the range ,max: 200-250km ?
For the old ,basic R-33 we have data that max launch range can be 120/160km. R-27ER has 130km max launch range but there is a catch ,there is option for the 'Gorka' or 'pop-up' maneuver .Su-27 is certainly inferior in comparison with both MiG's when we talk about the max launch speed/height.Now with that 'Gorka' (aircraft pitching up),does it mean that launched R-27ER ( all versions ) has some kind of parabolic flight path?
Question is, how to engage something that is 120km/160km away,big and fast e.g.? Let we use that 120km, it is twice as much in comparison with R-40R/RD where we have missiles with almost the same weight, max achievable speed but with the longer burn time of R-33's engine.
Now some interesting details :
''Энергоблок в хвостовой части включает газогенераторы рулевых машин и турбогенератор электроснабжения.''
''The power unit in the aft section comprises the gas generators for the steering actuators and a turbogenerator for the electrical power supply.''
https://missilery.info/missile/r33
''Захват цели головкой самонаведения может происходить спустя треть полетного времени ракеты. Дальность захвата головкой цели типа Ту-16 составляет около 90 км, что с учетом инерциального наведения до захвата обеспечивает возможность пуска с дальности порядка 120...130 км.''
''Target acquisition by the homing head may occur after one-third of the missile's flight time. The acquisition range against a target of the Tu-16 type is approximately 90 km; when combined with inertial guidance prior to acquisition, this enables a launch from a range of about 120–130 km.''
https://testpilot.ru/russia/vympel/r/33/index_1.php
So lock-on in SARH mode can be achieved after 20sec of flight. I think we have job to do. First,max range of the RC-channel for the basic N007 Zaslon. Second, is that 60 sec of controllable flight time of R-33 right anyway? Again, 60sec vs 160sec ,weird,very weird...
About the max speed of the AAM's. Even that 'Ka-bot 15A' mentioned that old Soviet R-40 was faster than AIM-54 at height over 20km ( video will be posted on the R-40 thread) .
In fact ,R-40 is about 1000km/h faster than Phoenix as he mentioned. R-40 flew only in straight line and AIM-54 could loft (longer range engagment). So in this case, loft capable AIM-54 is slower then R-40 in higher stratosphere.
As far as I know ( from some sources), max achievable speed of AIM-54 during many tests was 4.3M. On the other side, R-40 could reach max speed almost 6M. R-40R/RD with its 40sec of controlled flight can engage target from about 60km (max).
We must keep on mind that MiG-25 and 31 could/can launch R-40&R-33 in the speed range as max : 2500-3000km/h. F-14 and 15 could/can not do something like that. Also both Soviet interceptors can launch their long range AAM's from above 20km .Both US fighters can't do that.Launch speed is the first speed of the launched missile.
So ,R-33 has 60s of controllable flight time ( just like R-27ER), AIM-54 has 160sec. It is more than twice in favour of the Phoenix. Max launch range ever achieved with AIM-54A was from Jan 1979 during one IRIAF exercise, it was 244km. 80km was achieved during Nov 1973 'six on six' test and 204km during April 1973 launch test ( missile reached about 30km of height). So with 160sec controlled flight and lofting, it is possible to engage incoming target in the range ,max: 200-250km ?
For the old ,basic R-33 we have data that max launch range can be 120/160km. R-27ER has 130km max launch range but there is a catch ,there is option for the 'Gorka' or 'pop-up' maneuver .Su-27 is certainly inferior in comparison with both MiG's when we talk about the max launch speed/height.Now with that 'Gorka' (aircraft pitching up),does it mean that launched R-27ER ( all versions ) has some kind of parabolic flight path?
Question is, how to engage something that is 120km/160km away,big and fast e.g.? Let we use that 120km, it is twice as much in comparison with R-40R/RD where we have missiles with almost the same weight, max achievable speed but with the longer burn time of R-33's engine.
Now some interesting details :
''Энергоблок в хвостовой части включает газогенераторы рулевых машин и турбогенератор электроснабжения.''
''The power unit in the aft section comprises the gas generators for the steering actuators and a turbogenerator for the electrical power supply.''
https://missilery.info/missile/r33
''Захват цели головкой самонаведения может происходить спустя треть полетного времени ракеты. Дальность захвата головкой цели типа Ту-16 составляет около 90 км, что с учетом инерциального наведения до захвата обеспечивает возможность пуска с дальности порядка 120...130 км.''
''Target acquisition by the homing head may occur after one-third of the missile's flight time. The acquisition range against a target of the Tu-16 type is approximately 90 km; when combined with inertial guidance prior to acquisition, this enables a launch from a range of about 120–130 km.''
https://testpilot.ru/russia/vympel/r/33/index_1.php
So lock-on in SARH mode can be achieved after 20sec of flight. I think we have job to do. First,max range of the RC-channel for the basic N007 Zaslon. Second, is that 60 sec of controllable flight time of R-33 right anyway? Again, 60sec vs 160sec ,weird,very weird...
In the meantime, some interesting details ,I hope ...
Basic R-33's and antennas which we can see under the nozzles.
R-33S on the left side, R-33 on the right side with that same antenna.
Now what we can see on the basic R-33 and modified R-33S is that antenna under the nozzle. As it was described on the No16, it is some kind of radar seeker's reference antenna.So it is not the antenna for the RC-channel ( I thought it is) like it exists on the R-27R/ER, just as older R-40R/RD ,R-33&R-33S don't have real RC-channel antenna nor radars N007&N007A (also) don't have RC-channel at all,it seems like that. Only N007M had that with old R-37 ( max range =100km) and very possible that N007AM has that for the newer R-37M,R-77-1 and R-77M.
Question , is this have to do with Track-via-missile (TVM) technique ?
Basic R-33's and antennas which we can see under the nozzles.
R-33S on the left side, R-33 on the right side with that same antenna.
Now what we can see on the basic R-33 and modified R-33S is that antenna under the nozzle. As it was described on the No16, it is some kind of radar seeker's reference antenna.So it is not the antenna for the RC-channel ( I thought it is) like it exists on the R-27R/ER, just as older R-40R/RD ,R-33&R-33S don't have real RC-channel antenna nor radars N007&N007A (also) don't have RC-channel at all,it seems like that. Only N007M had that with old R-37 ( max range =100km) and very possible that N007AM has that for the newer R-37M,R-77-1 and R-77M.
Question , is this have to do with Track-via-missile (TVM) technique ?
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Yesterday you said that the basic Zaslon has a RC-channel. You didn’t know that it doesn’t have it.
Then I told you that it doesn’t have RC-channel.
Then I deliberately (for the experiment) deleted my response to see how you would behave.
And now you’re writing, “nor radars N007&N007A (also) don't have RC-channel at all,it seems like that" - like, you suddenly figured it out on your own.
I’m just laughing out loud.
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The primary reason to doubt that the original R-33 does lofting is that Vympel did a series of tests after it entered service using lofting techniques to increase range. In August 18, 1993, a MiG-31 conducted a long-range intercept test using a modified R-33 missile over a distance of 228 km.
if it used lofting already, then this would make zero sense.
Now, its possible that all R-33s got upgraded to allow lofting after this, but I think it more likely only the R-33S does lofting.
if it used lofting already, then this would make zero sense.
Now, its possible that all R-33s got upgraded to allow lofting after this, but I think it more likely only the R-33S does lofting.
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About that test ,we have different info: first it was MiG-31B or M with R-33S and second ,it was MiG-31M with old R-37.
What is need for 'loft' anyway ? We know that basic R-33 was the first Soviet AAM with the digital comp.Is there some detail with the autopilot ?
I any case ,if old,basic R-33 could loft ,than I think max possible launch ranges like 120 km /160 km are illogical.
The R‑33 was supposed to have a loft from the very beginning, from the basic modification. The extra‑long range in 1993 isn’t related to the missile’s flight capability. Rather, it’s related to the ability of the new guidance system of the missile to hit a target at such a great distance.
You shouldn’t talk bullshit and say “we know.” The digital computer was first equipped on the R‑33S not on the basic R‑33
This is what WE know.
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From ''R-33 had a loft'' to 'R-33 was supposed to have a loft'.
As I mentioned,maybe I was the first one who wrote about the loft capability of the basic R-33 ( in this and on the R-23,24,27 -thread) nevermind but 'overscan' gave some data and info after which I started to consider that it was maybe not possible...
For all of us, it will be the best option to find one but one video where we can see basic R-33 doing that 'loft' after its launch.
R-33S has the same guidance system like basic R-33 : inertial +SARH.
''In the mid-1980s, Vympel began modernizing the R-33 missile. According to customer requirements, it was to differ significantly from the baseline version by having an increased launch range, a heavier warhead, a more sophisticated control system, increased flight time, and a new propulsion system.''
So the new guidance system wasn't mentioned.
''The truth is out there .... ''
Btw ,different sources give us different data like:
''Р-33 стала первой советской ракетой, оснащенной встроенной БЦВМ.''
''The R-33 became the first Soviet missile equipped with an onboard digital computer.''
Source: https://testpilot.ru/russia/vympel/r/33/index_1.php
''Р-33С с активной РГСН. Р-33С - первая советская ракета, оснащенная встроенной цифровой БЦВМ.''
''The R-33S features an active radar homing seeker. The R-33S is the first Soviet missile equipped with an onboard digital computer.''
Source: https://missilery.info/missile/r33
In fact ,R-33S has inertial+SARH ( not ARH).
Exactly ,someone knows more,someone knows less and everyone can make mistake( btw I made so many mistakes yes) but in this case it is not about the knowledge ,it is about your attitude ( word 'garbage',laughing etc)...
Citations :
''Полуактивная радиолокационная головка самонаведения (РГС), разработанная НИИ «Агат», захватывает цель уже после пуска с самолета-носителя. До захвата наведение ракеты осуществляется инерциальной системой. Протяженность участка полета до перехода на самонаведение составляла 10-20% всей протяженности траектории.Дальность захвата головкой цели типа Ту-16 составляет около 90 км, что с учетом инерциального наведения до захвата обеспечивает возможность пуска с дальности порядка 120...130 км.
Полуактивная РГС ракеты Р-33 оснащена вычислителем, прогнозирующим угловую скорость линии визирования, аналогичным установленному в ракете Р-24Р. Вычислитель - модель кинематических соотношений относительного движения - получает начальные условия (относительную дальность, скорость сближения и проекции угловой скорости линии дальности) в полетном задании.Особенность вычислителя ракеты Р-33, в отличие от вычислителя ракеты Р-24Р, состоит в том, что он начинает свою работу с момента окончания отработки системой стабилизации стартовых возмущений. Поэтому полет ракеты до момента включения вычислителя должен привести ракету в заранее назначенную точку, а на борту истребителя должны вычисляться оценки дальности, скорости сближения и угловой скорости линии дальности спустя 2 с после схода. Начальное положение антенны (угловое целеуказание) также должно прогнозироваться на самолете-носителе перед пуском на указанный момент.
В процессе полета ракеты до захвата ориентация антенны определяется оценками угловой скорости линии дальности, вырабатываемыми вычислителем с учетом текущей измеренной перегрузки ракеты. Теми же оценками угловой скорости определяется формирование заданной перегрузки. В головке используется индикаторный гиростабилизатор, построенный на базе датчиков угловой скорости. Захват цели головкой самонаведения может происходить спустя треть полетного времени ракеты. Это достигается, в частности, благодаря высокой точности оценивания угловой скорости линии визирования БРЛС носителя (ошибки составляют 0,01...0,03 град/с).
Доплеровская головка самонаведения отличается строгим согласованием всех протекающих в ней процессов с интервалами подсвета назначенной для нее цели, равными 20 мс. В течение указанного времени производится поиск цели по частоте, а в процессе сопровождения выполняется измерение частотной расстройки и углового рассогласования. Все остальное время до следующего интервала подсвета головка "заперта" для приема и сигналы, формируемые ею, вычисляются в результате прогноза по предыдущим измерениям.
В головке реализован способ пеленгации с обработкой сигнала двухканальным приемником, реализующим метод так называемого скрытного конического сканирования с компенсацией. В каждом канале независимо от других в качестве нормирующих устройств используются схемы АРУ. Точность измерения угловых координат цели головкой, в том числе и при амплитудных помехах, приближается к точности моноимпульсной системы.''
''The semi-active radar homing (SARH) seeker developed by the Agat Research Institute acquires the target only after the missile has been launched from the carrier aircraft. Prior to acquisition, the missile is guided by an inertial system. The flight segment preceding the switch to homing mode accounts for 10–20% of the total trajectory length. The seeker’s acquisition range against a Tu-16-type target is approximately 90 km; combined with inertial guidance prior to acquisition, this enables launches from a range of about 120–130 km.
The semi-active radar seeker of the R-33 missile is equipped with a line-of-sight angular rate calculator similar to the one used in the R-24R missile. Calculator—which models the kinematic relationships of relative motion—receives initial conditions (relative range, closing velocity, and line-of-sight angular rate components) as part of the flight data. A distinctive feature of the R-33 seeker's calculator, compared to that of the R-24R, is that it begins operation only after the stabilization system has finished compensating for launch-induced disturbances.
Therefore, the missile's flight prior to the activation of the onboard computer must bring it to a pre-designated point, while estimates of range, closing velocity, and the angular rate of the line-of-sight must be calculated onboard the fighter two seconds after launch. The initial antenna position (angular target designation) must also be predicted on the carrier aircraft prior to launch for that specific moment in time.
During the missile's flight prior to lock-on, the antenna orientation is determined by estimates of the line-of-sight angular rate generated by the computer, taking into account the missile's currently measured acceleration. These same angular rate estimates also determine the generation of the commanded acceleration. The seeker employs an indicating gyrostabilizer based on angular rate sensors. Target acquisition by the homing head can occur after one-third of the missile's flight time. This is achieved, in particular, through the high-precision estimation of the line-of-sight angular rate provided by the carrier aircraft's radar (errors range from 0.01 to 0.03 deg/s).The Doppler homing seeker is characterized by the precise synchronization of all its internal processes with the 20 ms illumination intervals of its assigned target.
During this interval, the seeker performs a frequency-based target search, while in the tracking mode, it measures frequency offset and angular misalignment. For the remainder of the time until the next illumination interval, the seeker is "locked" against signal reception, and the signals it generates are derived from predictions based on previous measurements.The seeker employs a direction-finding method involving signal processing by a dual-channel receiver that implements so-called covert conical scanning with compensation. Automatic gain control (AGC) circuits are used in each channel, independently of the others, for signal normalization. The accuracy with which the seeker measures the target's angular coordinates—including in the presence of amplitude-based interference—approaches that of a monopulse system.''
What we have : SA-seeker can lock on e.g. incoming Tu-16 from 90km.With use of inertial guidance ,max lanuch range can be 120-130km.If incoming Tu-16 is within the range 90km,there will be no inertial guidance only SARH. There is more bigger aircraft than Tu-16 is, so max launch range can be even greater than 120-130 km... Question, what is used during inertial phase? If there is no RC-channel what for is used that antenna under the nozzle? I asked if that seeker's reference signal is something similar to TVM- technique ( or it is part of it ).
Your previous comments on the R-23,24,27 thread ,4th page :..''correction commands were transmitted via the host aircraft radar signal (as Barker codes I think?) and received by the rear-facing reference signal receivers on the missile seekers.The rear-facing aerials are missing. They are part of the SARH guidance system - the seeker gets reflected signal from the target and the reference signal directly from the illuminating radar.''
Now some details and questions about that bolded and underlined citations and the story about digital comp in the basic R-33 : We have info that on-board comp of the R-33 is very similar to that in the R-24R. This is translated citation from the R-23,24,27 thread, @LukaszK 's post on the 7th page :
''In the control system consisted of a seeker, an onboard computer ("вычислитель" - calculator, computer*), an autopilot, and a communication link with the carrier.By the time the K-27 was developed, onboard computers in the USSR had not yet reached the level of sophistication that they could be installed on board an air-to-air missile, so onboard computing had to be reduced to a minimum. This was achieved by building the computer on a design known as a "pseudo-kinematic link" (PKZ).''
If this is right, than it seems that we have the same situation in the older R-33 with that 'pseudo-kinematic link' or some kind of 'primitive digital onboard comp' ? Another question: If there is really that so called PKZ ,was that obstacle to achieve loft flight path? In contrary, AIM-54A had analog comp but AIM-54C got digital one?
As LukaszK wrote : ''I think still digital, but probably with hardware strictly designed to perform particular algorithm.''
With that PKZ, AAM's like R-24R,R-27R/ER have no loft capability ,is this the same situation with the basic R-33?
Now back to Zakharov's memoirs from Vympel about the R-33S:
''In the mid-1980s, Vympel began modernizing the R-33 missile. According to customer requirements, it was to differ significantly from the baseline version by having an increased launch range, a heavier warhead, a more sophisticated control system, increased flight time, and a new propulsion system.''
So maybe the R-33S got the first real one onboard digit comp which ensure loft capability and launch distances in the range 200-250km? We must keep on mind that in the same period, K-37/Izd 610 for the MiG-31M existed ( developed during 1983) with the first flight tests achieved during 1988/89.Maybe this Soviet AAM was the first one with the real digital comp onboard? K/R-37 was capable of 'lofting' just like R-33S.
Exactly! But those who know little should shut up and listen to those who know more. Isn't it? You know very little, but you don’t want to follow this rule. You prefer to flood the forum with a huge number of slop messages.
Overscan didn’t provide any data. He and Gloria are just making things up, linking the absence of a loft with the absence of a digital computer on the missile, or with the absence of INS ( "the stock R-33 did not have a suitable autopilot/INS to fly a lofted profile") or with the fact that a missile with a flight duration of 60 seconds shouldn’t have a loft, while a missile flying for 200 seconds should, and so on. This is all made up. The missile doesn’t need either an INS or a digital computer for the loft profile. All that is needed is the appropriate algorithm and some kind of storage device.
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By the way. What is the source for the flight duration of the R-33 of 60 seconds pls?
Are you referring to this brochure for students at the civil aviation college? In that case, pay attention to the page in this same publication where the speed of the X‑58 is stated as 950 km/h.
Actually, it’s not 950 km/h and not even 950 m/s. It’s just nonsense.
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i agree with the fact that a INS system is not needed for loft as aim7mh had lofting but it didn't have ins nor apn as far as i know but early varients of r33 only had about a 60second battery life aeria even sent this book which corrisponds with the 60 second battery life claim
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Mig-31 and Su-27 speed limit when loaded with missiles.
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