TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

Umigami said:
Maybe there is a possibility there will be another version of Kaan.
This person come to TAI booth during Indodefence 2024

https://twitter.com/x/status/1966142320392511770
View: https://x.com/Raditama0210/status/1966142320392511770?t=4XP2HlsYeZmsdRG9yF6Y-A&s=19


Translation:
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I asume the display was showing Kaan's first flight
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That model above is old and existed before the Kaan was unveiled to the world. It was basically the TFX model.

as for sizing down, generally speaking, combat aircraft are designed around its engine. Changing an engine of a very different class/size means you are basically changing the entire design.

An alternative engine potentially exists for the Kaan that might be a similar size, which is the one Japan is developing. But not sure if they would be willing to export it to Turkey despite generally friendly relations between the two.
 
Combat-Master said:
TAI updated the specs again :)
--

  • Dimensions, Weight and Performance​

    • Wing Span : 13.4 m (44 ft)
    • Wing Area : 71.6 m² (771 ft²)
    • Length : 20.3 m (66 ft)
    • Height : 5 m (16 ft)
    • MTOW : 34,750 kg (76,500 lb)
    • Thrust : 2 x 13,150 kgf (2 x 29,000 lb)
    • Maximum Speed : 1.8 Mach (@ 40,000 ft)
    • Service Ceiling : 16,764 m (55,000 ft)
    • Positive / Negative G Limit: +9 / -3.5 G
--

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I’m cross-posting this from the FCAS-thread because surprisingly the specs and requirements in this pre-FCAS German study almost exactly match what we know and what we can guesstimate about the Kaan.

H_K said:
We can look at the German studies immediately preceeding FCAS (DLR Future Fighter Demonstrator, aka Project Diabolo).
https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...r-demonstrator-dlr-ffd-project-diabolo.43292/
The FFD’s net thrust requirement was 112.7kN dry / 177.1kN wet (per engine). This required a 5m long engine with 1m inlet diameter, weighing 1875kg. Thrust also quoted elsewhere as 124kN dry / 183kN wet… possibly gross (uninstalled) engine rating.

The FFD design is quite big… 20.3m long x 14.8m wide with a 100m2 wing. Empty weight is ~16.5t. Take off weight clean is 28.3t with 8x AAMs (1.8t) and 10t internal fuel, increasing to 29.4t in air to ground configuration with internal weapons (4x AAMs + 4x 1,000lb JDAMs). Max take off weight is ~35t with external load. Combat radius is 780nm hi-hi-hi with internal fuel and 2.5min combat, or 550nm with 1hr CAP loiter.

I find these thrust numbers rather high IMHO. Dry thrust is driven by the Mach 1.4 supercruise requirement and wet thrust by requirements for supersonic maneuverability and Mach 2.0 top speed… see charts below. In addition, the wing is oversized (100m2) in order to enable subsonic cruise at 50,000ft, which increases structural weight and thrust requirements.

So perhaps thrust requirements could be cut by 10-20% to ~100kN dry and ~150kN wet with a few performance compromises (eg. supercruise at Mach 1.2 vs 1.4, top speed Mach 1.8 vs 2.0, subsonic cruise at 45kft vs 50kft). Also I would expect Dassault to be able to optimize the design a fair bit (eg. FFD weapons bay volume seems quite oversized).
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Could serve as a useful benchmark for our theoretical performance discussions...
 
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snne said:
I’m cross-posting this from the FCAS-thread because surprisingly the specs and requirements in this pre-FCAS German study almost exactly match what we know and what we can guesstimate about the Kaan.


Could serve as a useful benchmark for our theoretical performance discussions...
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Indeed, interestingly very very similar apart from wing area
 
snne said:
Kaan's Toygun EOTS has flown for the first time, onboard a Baykar Kizilelma prototype...

screenshot-2025-10-21-104917-png.788940
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Our first look at the mirror assembly:

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Screenshot 2025-11-17 101544.png

Screenshot 2025-11-17 101654.png Screenshot 2025-11-17 101754.png Screenshot 2025-11-17 101707.png

Kaan’s going to have an upgraded variant with the -200 -300 code, while this one on the Kizilelma is the TOYGUN-100 TOYGUN-200 model:

1753361164766-png.778985


The TOYGUN-200 TOYGUN-300 is going to be integrated onto the new P1 & P2 prototypes of the Kaan and start airborne tests by H1 2026.
 
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Ultimately a domestic engine is their goal, but it could be a viable temporary solution until such an engine becomes operationally available. It's unfortunate that European engine development outside of Russia has stagnated, otherwise Safran or Eurojet may have been able to position themselves as an alternative to both Russian and US engines. Which may be a niche Turkey could exploit in the future themselves.
 
lancer21 said:
Came across this, not sure how likely this can be (though they bought S-400 so...), but yeah the 14,500kgf Izd. 177S or even better, the 16,000 kgf Izd. 177 are probably the only viable and available alternatives to the american engines.
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Very low chance of happening because of A. Politics, B. They'll need to swap the gearbox from the top to the bottom of the engine.

If the Turks need Russian engines for the Kaan, it'll be one derived from the Al-31FN.

Getting a WS-10 variant from China is a bit less politically loaded but they'll have to concede a bit more.
 
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Yeah the europeans are non-players in the thrust range required for KAAN (unless somehow the turks are willing to pay through their nose to have a european bespoke engine build for it, by i dunno 2040?). Apart from the Izd.117/177 the evolved WS-10 variants are also available (PRC making rapid progress in the engine area lately).
 
Guys, calm down.

The Kaan project is neither a self-funded project of Turkish Aerospace nor is it the project of the MoND. It was initiated by the Presidency of the Defence Industries and this is where all the problems with engine supply and CAATSA lie. Because it was put in place against the PoDI, anytime they get mentioned on an export-license, that project receives an instant export-ban with anyone that wants to continue having business with the U.S.; the same also holds true for GE and their F110 engines.

As of the last meeting with Erdogan, Trump and his people are currently trying to find a way to circumvent this issue with the CAATSA in order to deliver the engines and re-strengthen ties with Turkey, but in order for things to become permanent, they have to lift the CAATSA on Turkey.

However, the MoFA Fidan misconveyed the issue. The engine supply hasn't been blocked yet, the State Department hasn't even submitted it to the Congress yet. They're supposedly waiting for the right time to submit and pass it in the Congress; and what MoFA tries to emphasize is that time is moving and the U.S. State Department has to submit it and pass it soon in order for the engines to keep up with the delivery schedule of the LRIP planes. Acc. to MOFA's last statement, the CAATSA issue will be resolved soon, so let's wait and see what happens.

Granted, the Congress has traditionally been heavily against anything involving Turkey's name, but that's another matter and frankly all the U.S. needs to do to pass it is a message from Trump and a lecture from officials on Turkey's importance in these heated times and why they need to supply the engines.

snne said:
The issue regarding the engine supply for the LRIP batch, as it turns out, was misconveyed by MoFA Fidan. It wasn't blocked; the US State Department hasn't submitted it to Congress yet and is seemingly waiting for the right time to pass it without issue.
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Last time we had this heated discussion was only two pages ago, and it keeps coming up constantly. Frankly, if we keep having people come over here and restart it at the first sight of these news, none of us will have time to do anything else.

So please, let’s freeze this engine topic for a bit until things get clearer or until there’s an update to legitimize it.

@lancer21 @EmoBirb @Waterballoon
 
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snne said:
Guys, calm down.

The Kaan project is neither a self-funded project of Turkish Aerospace nor is it the project of the MoND. It was initiated by the Presidency of the Defence Industries and this is where all the problems with engine supply and CAATSA lie. Because it was put in place against the PoDI, anytime they get mentioned on an export-license, that project receives an instant export-ban with anyone that wants to continue having business with the U.S.; the same also holds true for GE and their F110 engines.
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Presidency of the Defense Industries?

Could you describe that whole organizational setup, please?

Is that a nationalized business leader, or some elected/appointed governmental entity?
 
Forest Green said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1999006718873743433
View: https://x.com/er_tugay_/status/1999006718873743433?s=20
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This isn't news to us; but I'd prefer if you don't share this guy's posts unless he provides a source, he’s one of those clueless hype-men.

snne said:
Back in 2017, TEI had actually offered to complete the development of an F110 equivalent within 15 years. (But that was a different TEI to today's).

According to the CEO, they essentially built a scaled-down version of the TF35000; using the TF6000/10000 to build the technologies incorporated into the TF35000.
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snne said:
To be clear, when he said 'integration by 2032,' he was referring to serial production, supported by the fact that the Indonesian planes with Turkish indigenous engines are officially also scheduled to begin delivery in 2032. Additionally, the official delivery timeline for the Block 30 'with indigenous engines' has always been set for 2032.

According to the official timeline, in 2028, one of the prototypes is expected to conduct tests with a single TF35000 integrated.
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snne said:
Temel Kotil, a.k.a the previous head of TAI.

Original Text:

English translation:


https://haber.aero/savunma/milli-mu...la-2028de-havalanacak/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Original Text:


English translation:


https://www.dunya.com/gundem/tusas-...rinde-2028te-turk-motoru-olacak-haberi-728958

Original:

English Translation:

https://www.defenceturk.net/disisle...ri-ve-kaanda-son-durum?utm_source=chatgpt.com


https://www.turkiyetoday.com/turkiy...y-2028-says-kotil-1804?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Demiroğlu:

https://www.turkishminute.com/2025/...n-in-kaan-fighter-jet/?utm_source=chatgpt.com

I can pull up more quotes if you give me some time.

Moreover, this entire thread is essentially an encyclopedia of every tiny detail about this project. If you go back a couple of dozen pages, you'll find anything you're looking for.


--------

Besides, the Block 30 (i.e. the ultimate version) has always been intended to be equipped with the indigenous engine and delivered by 2032. The fact that Indonesian deliveries in 2032 will also officially come with Turkish engines further supports this.
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snne said:
Demiroğlu has also stated similar things:


They don't mean that dual engine trials will commence in 2032; they mean the certification will be completed by 2032.


It doesn't help that most of the figures in the Turkish military-industrial complex love to say things that are open to many interpretations or misunderstandings (Temel Kotil in particular is infamous for this); but this has been one of the few clear things they've ever communicated to us.
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Combat-Master said:
Let our people rest assured. They will soon see the TF35000. "
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While it's great that the project is progressing well, let's be realistic: projects of this scale (regardless of origin) typically experience several delays.

Turkish Aerospace, Aselsan, and others have managed to overcome significant obstacles to meet the project timeline due to the urgency, but TEI folks tend to work at their own pace, without much pressure. If this project is to meet the delivery timelines for both the Turkish and the Indonesian Block 30 birds, they’ll need to step up their pace and put in overtime the same way the people at other companies have done.
 
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snne said:
but TEI folks tend to work at their own pace, without much pressure.
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TEI personnel not under pressure, seems like broken logic. Especially with their past projects, they are putting in the hours to churn out prototypes and complete engine developments.

Anyway, anyone who knows/followed the engine developments of KAAN, knows it started way before 2022..
 
Combat-Master said:
TEI personnel not under pressure, seems like broken logic. Especially with their past projects, they are putting in the hours to churn out prototypes and complete engine developments.
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Yes, compared to the urgency that other Turkish giants operate under to meet deadlines, they do indeed face less pressure due to the nature of the industry they’re in. It can take up to two decades for an engine of any kind to mature and be ready for production from scratch.

But now, because the government has mismanaged Turkish security policies and recklessly left the armed forces vulnerable in a volatile region, others are left to pick up the pieces and work under immense pressure to fix the consequences of those grave mistakes.
 
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Combat-Master said:
Low res image, of an Articulated Research Configuration model KAAN in TUSAS new BSAT-T wind tunnel facility

(looks like the inlets are smaller and pushed back some?)
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Various size wind tunnel cells;
View attachment 788292

Source> https://www.tusas.com/medya-merkezi/Dergi?s=1&d=2025

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shitty comparison

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snne said:
Our first look at the mirror assembly:

1000039637-jpg.791845
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View attachment 791849View attachment 791850View attachment 791851

Kaan’s going to have an upgraded variant with the -200 -300 code, while this one on the Kizilelma is the TOYGUN-100 TOYGUN-200 model:

1753361164766-png.778985


The TOYGUN-200 TOYGUN-300 is going to be integrated onto the new P1 & P2 prototypes of the Kaan and start airborne tests by H1 2026.
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Downgraded variant of the Kaan's IRST; the Karat-100(?)/200(?) has also flown for the first time :)

Screenshot 2025-12-31 182110.png Screenshot 2025-12-31 182219.png Screenshot 2025-12-31 182241.png

The only piece of the sensor puzzle left now is the BÜRFIS/IRFS (Integrated RF System) with that humongous MURAD-600A GaN nose FCR, which is slated for H2 2026 :)

-----------------

It's crazy to think about, considering how, even back in 2022, we viewed the 2022-2028 timeline for the Kaan in such a doomerist way.
 
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ComradeVortex said:
That's the Indonesian Defense Minister, looks like we're actually very committed to KAAN
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That mouthpiece, @sswipe insider/journalist of yours had mentioned that an initial payment of around $1.2B was allocated for Kaan in 2025.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1978601295402664253
View: https://x.com/i/status/1978601295402664253


Combat-Master said:
First glimpse at KAAN's AESA radar MURAD-600 : Brick architecture confirmed @Waterballoon
View attachment 797948

TULGAR HMD
View attachment 797952
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You and I both know that this is an early mockup of the MURAD-600A from around 2021, yet you keep randomly posting not only that aperture mockup but also photos of the HMD, even though there are no new developments to justify posting them.

1000077575.jpg
 
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snne said:
That mouthpiece, @sswipe insider/journalist of yours had mentioned that an initial payment of around $1.2B was allocated for Kaan in 2025.
https://twitter.com/x/status/1978601295402664253
View: https://x.com/i/status/1978601295402664253



You and I both know that this is an early mockup of the MURAD-600A from around 2021, yet you keep randomly posting not only that aperture mockup but also photos of the HMD, even though there are no new developments to justify posting them.

View attachment 797979
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They are different, one is clearly a mock-up and the newer one looks to be a test article of some kind at least. Also the size seems to be around 1m², which matches the main array for 600A
 
Radonislav said:
They are different, one is clearly a mock-up and the newer one looks to be a test article of some kind at least. Also the size seems to be around 1m², which matches the main array for 600A
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Also, regarding the radars. My bet is that the main array has bricks and sides/back are patches. Hell it might even be that the side arrays are Murad-100A's and the back array is a smaller 100A
 
Radonislav said:
Also, regarding the radars. My bet is that the main array has bricks and sides/back are patches. Hell it might even be that the side arrays are Murad-100A's and the back array is a smaller 100A
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there's a back array? I though it had 270deg radar coverage and not full 360?
 
snne said:
You and I both know that this is an early mockup of the MURAD-600A from around 2021, yet you keep randomly posting not only that aperture mockup but also photos of the HMD, even though there are no new developments to justify posting them.

View attachment 797979
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That's MURAD 110A
1768251510961.png


So don't know what you're on about, but okay :)
 
Turkish Aerospace GM Mehmet Demiroğlu:

– The second and third phase official signatures for the Indonesian KAANs (Finance, Training, Maintenance, etc.) will be signed in 2026

– P1 will make its first flight around May-June 2026.

– We plan to bring the second prototype to the testing phase by the end of this year, and the third prototype either by the end of this year or at the beginning of next year. The prototypes have an approximate 2-3 month on-site testing process.

– The delivery target for Kaan was set for the end of 2028, but due to the delays experienced, it is now anticipated that entry into the inventory will begin in early 2029.
– The official order for the first 20 Kaan is expected to be placed soon.

– In Blocks 10/20, 20–40 aircraft will be produced with the F110. Once the domestic engine is ready, it will be integrated into the platform. 3–5 month delays are normal in projects of this scale; the main plan has not changed.

- Work for the 6th generation has already begun.

– Towards the end of Kaan Block 20, together with the indigenous engine, we can speak of a 5.5 generation level.

– With the indigenous engine coming online, all infrastructure and concepts for the 6th generation will be ready within a few years.
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View: https://youtu.be/LzyzFgasi9c?si=70t5spfnGzDve85k


Kinda rehashes, at large, what’s already been made public, but gives a minor update on the status of P2 and reveals that the Block 10 order is expected soon.

Block 20 (not B30) being 5.5-gen level (or close to) means Block 30 with indigenous engines will be proper 5.5th gen as expected, on the same level as FCAS or GCAP.

=============

Somebody has to do something about educating these journalists, they keep asking stupid questions…
 
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snne said:
Block 20 (not B30) being 5.5-gen level (or close to) means Block 30 with indigenous engines will be proper 5.5th gen as expected, on the same level as FCAS or GCAP.
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Is KAAN block 30 designed with 2MW power generation in mind?

What’s with the grouping of FCAS and GCAP down to 5.5gen? Sounds like the same crap trolls like to do with diminishing Su-57 down to 4.5gen.
 
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