Frégate de Taille Intermédiaire (FTI)

Just a nice pic... 2 FDI frigates heading out to sea in a gathering storm last week (up to 50 knot winds... pretty typical winter weather for the Bay of Biscay).

This is the final sea trial for the crew of Greece’s first FDI (HN Kimon), before delivery in December.

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According to the MP in charge of reporting on the Navy budget, all French FDI will be equipped with 32 VLS cells instead of 16 as currently planned.
The 4th and 5th will be equipped with them from the start (delivered in 2031/32), while the first 3 will be retrofitted afterwards.

And the first 2 FDI at sea -->
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Titus K said:
inversely, wouldn't installing the CAMMs amidships introduce limitations when firing forward or aft ?
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Type 23 could fire, if necessary, CAMM up and over the radar set to head directly aft. The initial pop-up from the SVL is quite significant but arcs can also be addressed via software. Would likely reduce minimum engagement range from certain arcs though. But given that CAMM already has a ludicrously low minimum engagement range of 200m, even with an extension of that for certain arcs it would likely be an improvement from other munitions.
 
TomS said:
Ah, yep. Sweden is lined up for ExLS/CAMM on the Visbys. With CAMM already in the pipeline, I'd think Sweden would prefer CAMM MR over ASTER, which would probably mean Mk 41 (as in the Polish Arrowheads). Not sure if Naval Group has ever offered an LM VLS though.
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CAMM MR has not the range and even less the pk against supersonic missile of ASTER 30.
best is a combo of ASTER for high kinematic missile, and CAMM for short range and less demanding targets.
 
BonPlan2 said:
CAMM MR has not the range and even less the pk against supersonic missile of ASTER 30.
best is a combo of ASTER for high kinematic missile, and CAMM for short range and less demanding targets.
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The Marine Nationale uses 76mm guns with proximity fused ammo and is bringing back Mistral point-defense missile systems on more platforms (the new Mistral 3 is quite capable). These provide good coverage against a wide range of short range threats so CAAM would be less useful IMHO.
 
H_K said:
The Marine Nationale uses 76mm guns with proximity fused ammo and is bringing back Mistral point-defense missile systems on more platforms (the new Mistral 3 is quite capable). These provide good coverage against a wide range of short range threats so CAAM would be less useful IMHO.
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indeed. But what against a drones saturating attack (the futur at sea) ?
76mm is good by can't fire 360° and just1 aboard.
Mistral : only 2 x 2, if any (2 x6 on Charles de Gaulle. Never installed on Horizon).
20mm Narwal gun : without fuze ammo, it is nearly useless.

Our frigates lack of short range missile (I like CAMM & CAMM ER in this role) and 30 or 40mm gun.

The Italian frigates are, in this field, so many more potent.
 
The LMP/MPLS is being discussed for the French FDIs
https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/defe...-pas-receptionner-sa-troisieme-fdi-avant-2029
Admiral Vaujour had explained to the deputies a few days earlier that the self-defense of French frigates, especially against drones, would be improved with Mistral short-range surface-to-air missiles. This can be done with MBDA's Simbad-RC launchers or the new modular polyvalent launcher system (LMP) developed by Naval Group and which is of great interest to the Marine Nationale. A system of this type, capable of launching several ammunition (Mistral and laser-guided rockets for example), can be integrated above the FDI hangar.

The Marine Nationale and the Direction Générale de l'Armament (DGA) also continue to work on the addition, on board these frigates, of anti-missile lures and complementary electronic warfare systems, such as the new jammers developed for the renovation of Franco-Italian air defense frigates of the Horizon type.
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View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_7W3EF0GaY
 
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BonPlan2 said:
A best substitute to Mistral lauchers (x2 or x6).
But not adapted to drones saturating attack.
most of the west destroyers and frigates lack of small artillery. Italy is a must.
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A load of 44 70-mm guided rockets (plus 8 Mistral or equivalent) seems like a pretty useful counter to drone attacks.

Far too big to replace the 2-round SIMBAD launcher (which is basically a free-swinging 20mm replacement). Maybe for SADRAL, though.
 
TomS said:
A load of 44 70-mm guided rockets (plus 8 Mistral or equivalent) seems like a pretty useful counter to drone attacks.

Far too big to replace the 2-round SIMBAD launcher (which is basically a free-swinging 20mm replacement). Maybe for SADRAL, though.
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Using that same analogy, I'd say that 44x 70mm rockets in a trainable launcher would be the replacement for Bofors 40mm twin or quad mounts.
 
TomS said:
Not really an analogy. SIMBAD is literally a 20mm pedestal mount with the gun removed and two Mistral tubes attached.
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Point taken. Though that does lose out on one point of the old 20mm pedestals: they're still operable if the ship's electrical power is out. Mistral still requires a power source of some type, and it's not clear to me whether the mount is wired into ship's power or is batteries-only.

I still think we're going to see ships gaining some medium AA systems akin to all the 40mm Bofors mounts that proliferated in WW2. Something like the LMP/MPLS turret with both 70mm APKWS types and bigger missiles like Mistral or Stinger. Plus high-powered microwaves for swarms.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Point taken. Though that does lose out on one point of the old 20mm pedestals: they're still operable if the ship's electrical power is out. Mistral still requires a power source of some type, and it's not clear to me whether the mount is wired into ship's power or is batteries-only.
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In its simplest form it's literally a pedestal with two missiles attached - the only thing that needs power is the missile for a few seconds before launch, and it's got a battery for that.

OTOH there are versions of SIMBAD with add-on sights, which presumably draw on ship's power, and it's now been replaced by the powered, unmanned SIMBAD RC, which is available with two or four missiles ready to fire (so presumably replacing the old Tetral. mounting as well).

Scott Kenny said:
I still think we're going to see ships gaining some medium AA systems akin to all the 40mm Bofors mounts that proliferated in WW2.
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We're starting to see a proliferation of small RWS mountings along the sides of various projects, anything up to 6x 12.7mm mounts, which may be an initial reaction to USVs replacing the FIAC threat. But if the airborne threat proliferates then it would make sense to swap those out for something like 30mm Lionfish or Sea Snake to bring air bursting munitions into the defences.
 
BonPlan2 said:
Even 32 is short for a high end combat.
Lacks a kind of short range, cold fire and small footprint missile, in number, as CAMM. On FDI as on all the french frigate (FREMM ASW and even Horizon).
20mm canons also are a little bit short, without a programmable fuze.
So sad the Sylver can't accomodate CAMM in quad pack.
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It's ultimately a frigate; ASTER-30(esp. NG) is anything but cheap. 32 is already somewhat pushing it for a relatively modest frigate, AAM missile load will add significant part to its price, and in high end combat - it can be directly overwhelmed (overloaded) nevertheless. CAMMs don't solve it that well either - they're SHORAD solution, sure, but they are still expensive.

MPLS is a must.
 
TomS said:
A load of 44 70-mm guided rockets (plus 8 Mistral or equivalent) seems like a pretty useful counter to drone attacks.

Far too big to replace the 2-round SIMBAD launcher (which is basically a free-swinging 20mm replacement). Maybe for SADRAL, though.
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guided rockets against drones? Against naval drones Yes, but against aerial drones, and specially saturating attack, I don't know.
 
TomS said:
Not really an analogy. SIMBAD is literally a 20mm pedestal mount with the gun removed and two Mistral tubes attached.
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now the common launcher is SIMBAD RC, operate from inside the ship.But 2 missiles is too few. I would have preferd a 4 missiles config.
 
BonPlan2 said:
guided rockets against drones? Against naval drones Yes, but against aerial drones, and specially saturating attack, I don't know.
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What do you think APKWS is? And it works quite well versus aerial drones.

Swarms get to meet a high-power microwave or even directed jamming off the main AA radars. Nothing is going to like multiple megawatts of directed jamming!

Saturation attacks get to discover just how flexible the guidance packages are. With IIR, each rocket can select its target, and then you need some flavor of datalink to allow the swarm of rockets to call their shots and make sure every target is handled with no target getting 2 rockets until all targets have 1 rocket.
 
H_K said:
€791 million for delivery of a high-end ASW+AAW frigate within 3 years. Don't think anyone on the market is offering that kind of capability for that price. Let alone that quick.

Great deal for Greece IMHO.
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They have a special discount because they are our first customer, and because it's the fourth, with the same config : serial effect.
 
H_K said:
€791 million for delivery of a high-end ASW+AAW frigate within 3 years. Don't think anyone on the market is offering that kind of capability for that price. Let alone that quick.

Great deal for Greece IMHO.
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Laid down June 2025, delivery 31-12-2028, so at least three and a half years.
 
DWG said:
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2025/09/greece-commits-to-4th-fdi-frigate-procurement/
Price doesn't include weapons, and it's being delivered as Standard 2++, not the Standard 1 or 2 of the other 3, which will themselves be brought up to 2++ standard.

Laid down June 2025, delivery 31-12-2028, so at least three and a half years
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Yes. Quoting the basic ship price excluding consumables (weapons), logistics and post-delivery support is pretty common for how most naval deals are quoted.

So the full package includes the frigates (€708-791M each), the MBDA weapons package (€650M for Aster+Exocet for 4 frigates, i.e. €150-200M each), MU90 torpedoes & Canto torpedo decoys (~€50 for 3 frigates, i.e. €15M each), initial spares, support, training & documentation (€15M each), incremental upgrades (€20M each for the first 3 frigates - most likely mostly software/combat system enhancements) etc.

The ship takes longer than 3 years to build, but as far as the customer is concerned what matters is the 3 years delivery from contract signing (thanks to the hot production line allowing them to get a ship which has already started production).
 
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SS 7 ... not too bad for what some called a mediterranean frigate

Its compact layout and unique design make it perfectly suited to different environments and rough seas around the world (cold and warm waters, and archipelagic environments in particular). This ability to sail on the high seas and in heavy seas was demonstrated during Admiral Ronarc’h’s firstsea trials, but also during her trip to her first port of call in Lisbon, where the crew was able to observe the ship’s performance in sea state 7 in the Atlantic Ocean.
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BonPlan2 said:
Even 32 is short for a high end combat.
Lacks a kind of short range, cold fire and small footprint missile, in number, as CAMM. On FDI as on all the french frigate (FREMM ASW and even Horizon).
20mm canons also are a little bit short, without a programmable fuze.
So sad the Sylver can't accomodate CAMM in quad pack.
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It can't? Do you have more info?
 
TomS said:
We have discussed a few places here, and despite MBDA mentioning it a couple of places online there's no evidence that it's ever been tested.
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In that case I'd consider it 'not proven'.
 
I still suspect that there's going to be a version of dazzle camo developed to work with modern EO systems, not just the human eye.

Because the only method of surface-target IFF on a submarine is the Mk1 eyeball.
 
Titus K said:
SS 7 ... not too bad for what some called a mediterranean frigate
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Are there any photos of them in such conditions? Because the attached photo looks too calm and all the public shots are in suspiciously flat seas.
 
H_K said:
Good side view drawing of the FDI now published by Naval Group.
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CAMM-ER !!!
I wonder if CAMM-ER will be integrated in Sylver (for the Italian Navy notably) or if they plan to install ExLS/Mk41 or Mushroom Farms ?

M&M doesn't seem to know either, but mentions Sylver as a possibility.
https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/defe...se-la-fdi-avec-des-missiles-britanniques-camm
CAMMs are launched from specific containers, but have also been designed to be fired from the American launcher Mk41 and the Sylver.
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About portugal
The French proposal seems to technically meet the needs of the Marinha in all respects, including its compactness that allows it to use the current infrastructures of the Lisbon naval base (where an Italian FREMM apparently could not enter recently because it was too large, Portuguese media reported). But it is precisely the Italian frigate that seems to be chosen, as part of larger agreements between Lisbon and Rome. No official announcement has yet been made but what strongly resembles leaks from the Portuguese government give the Italian FREMM the winner.
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And Sweden
Highlighting the FDI's ability to board CAMMs is undoubtedly a message linked to competition in Sweden, the country having already chosen this missile at the end of 2023 to equip its Visby-class stealth corvettes.
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