Eurofighter Typhoon

Deliveries of used aircraft starting early 2026? That would be quick! Is this confirmed? Qatari aircraft might be the best option here, question is about training of personnel that does take a while. The Omani Typhoons are pretty much at their delivery standard as far as I know and that's P1Eb FW with M-Scan radar. So an upgrade may take a while. Don't know whether this mix of Omani Block 30N and Qatari Block 50M is a wise option from a configuration management point of view, add future Block 60+ Tranche 4 aircraft and you have 3 configurations of aircraft in a small 44 A/C fleet.
 
Lascaris said:
At Dassault they are probably opening champagnes at the news ;)
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I wonder what TAI and Tubitak feel.
That's a lot of money and commitment for 2025-2030s.
And while original order is a clear emergency gap filler, +20 option IMHO is aimed at them.

Also, political, but seems like literally first time since Suez when UK defense influence in region v. US increased rather than declined.

Good for TAF, though - within a ~year they should get out of their current predicament, and even in 2026(RAF pilots?) situation should be massively more comfortable than second half of 2025.
 
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Ainen said:
I wonder what TAI and Tubitak feel.
That's a lot of money and commitment for 2025-2030s.
And +20 option IMHO is aimed squarely at them.

Also, political, but seems like literally first time since Suez when UK defense influence in region v. US increased rather than declined.
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Honest truth: Kaan is regarded as the "Independence War 2.0" by quite literally everyone in Turkey, with absolutely no opposition to it, not even the tiniest. It’s one of the few topics on which both sides of the political spectrum are united.

The TurAF had planned to induct over 250 Kaans over its lifetime (i.e, 20 years), even before the F-35 procurement program -originally set for 116+ jets- was derailed. It was also expected (before the indigenous radar for the F-16s began its development) that Turkey would eventually upgrade its F-16 fleet to Block 70 standard, which didn’t turn out that way. In 2023, TurAF signed a deal to modernize its entire F-16B30, B40, and B50 fleet through the Özgür program, with the last jet scheduled for delivery in 2030.

If anything, all of this will increase the number of Kaans the TurAF will eventually procure.

So, there’s no competition whatsoever. The Kaan will be available starting in Q4 2028/Q1 2029, but the TurAF urgently needs any fresh additions it can get, like, yesterday yesterday.

Remember, the Kaan program was initiated to replace Turkey's entire F-16 fleet (~240-270 aircraft) indigenously.

There’s also the light-fighter-like drone Kizilelma, which is nearing the end of its testing (starting LRIP) and is set to officially enter service early next year. It is equipped with the same radar found on the newly modernized F-16 Özgürs (MURAD-100A 1152 GaN TRM radar), with options for the Karat IRST and Toygun EOTS. Additionally, TAI’s Anka-3 will become available for deep-strike missions around the same time.

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So, in fact, the TurAF will soon start growing rapidly in numbers, and it wouldn’t be crazy to imagine an eventual fleet size of around 450 by the late 2030s or early 2040s.

Hopefully I’ve cleared things up a bit, since this topic keeps coming up. Remember, we’re talking about NATO’s second-largest air force here, guys... And it has never been this weak before.
 
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snne said:
So, there’s no competition whatsoever. The Kaan will be available starting in 2028, but the TurAF urgently needs any fresh additions it can get, like, yesterday yesterday.
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That's my issue. I remember this date, and it's just two years(26 months) away. Without any clarity for engines.

This is shorter than it takes to reach IOC for an already delivered aircraft. For example, JAS-39E IOC, a2a only, is slated for 2027, and those already were finished and delivered last week.

Kaan, putting it mildly, isn't quite there yet; I frankly wonder if 2 flights of first prototype even count to flight testing program anymore: P1 appears to be completely different, and there is no clarity about engines beyond testing batch yet. I.e. depending on what P0 was, "in gripens" Kaan may not even be in SAAB's 2015.

On the other hand, for EF2000, the introduction will begin in 2026, so first TAF(not RAF liaison) pilots will be ready like in ~2027, and 2028 will be more of IOC date for the type in TAF.
For a two decades (in service)old Eurofigher.

As such, while Kaan remains as a national flagship program, it isn't hard to make a conclusion that at least for 2028-2030 it got shifted. At least, because delays happen - Altay is national flagship program as well, for 1.5 decade at this point; we still await deliveries.

I honestly expect Kaan more as a 2035 capability(=IOC for first unit with internal carriage), and that is if absolutely nothing goes wrong throughout the development:
-couple years for airframe test campaign,
-couple years for system testing, basic weapon integration and release trials,
-a few years to deliver sufficient number of actual production aircraft to t&e and first combat units, develop manuals and tactics, train instructors
-train pilots, ground crew, then whole units and force how to use LO aircraft.

As such, when compared to 2028 expectations, Eurofighter deal emerges as a midterm substitute.

Even to 2035, given that Eurofighter procurement with option can reach almost 100 a/c, is almost 10 a/craft a year, with additional expenses for its ecosystem (distinct from Ozgur/Kaan one). This is normal new procurement tempo for a medium sized air force, especially on top of expected LW procurement and and entire force level f-16 upgrades.

I.e. TAF-2030 is Eurofighter, Ozgur and Kizilelma. Kaan is more of TAF-2040.
 
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Ainen said:
That's my issue. I remember this date, and it's just two years(26 months) away. Without any clarity for engines.

This is shorter than it takes to reach IOC for an already delivered aircraft. For example, JAS-39E IOC, a2a only, is slated for 2027, and those already were finished and delivered last week.

Kaan, putting it mildly, isn't quite there yet; I frankly wonder if 2 flights of first prototype even count to flight testing program anymore: P1 appears to be completely different, and there is no clarity about engines beyond testing batch yet. I.e. depending on what P0 was, "in gripens" Kaan may not even be in SAAB's 2015.

On the other hand, for EF2000, the introduction will begin in 2026, so first TAF(not RAF liaison) pilots will be ready like in ~2027, and 2028 will be more of IOC date for the type in TAF.
For a two decades (in service)old Eurofigher.

As such, while Kaan remains as a national flagship program, it isn't hard to make a conclusion that at least for 2028-2030 it got shifted. At least, because delays happen - Altay is national flagship program as well, for 1.5 decade at this point; we still await deliveries.

I honestly expect Kaan more as a 2035 capability(=IOC for first unit with internal carriage), and that is if absolutely nothing goes wrong throughout the development. As such, when compared to 2028 expectations, Eurofighter deal, , is a clear midterm substitute to the original hopes..
Even to 2035, given that Eurofighter procurement with option can reach almost 100 a/c, is almost 10 a/craft a year, with additional expenses for its ecosystem (distinct from Ozgur/Kaan one). This is normal new procurement tempo for a medium sized air force, especially on top of expected LW procurement and and entire force level f-16 upgrades.
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I don't disagree with the major points you brought up, but comparing it with the Altay program or the Gripen C/E (or the Eurofighter, for that matter) is not an apt comparison.

Again, the issue is that the TurAF is frankly six years late in ordering new jets. They need all the jets they can get their hands on, and this won't end with the Eurofighter deal either. They will keep doing everything they can to receive 6 Turkish-owned and 34 new F-35s as well.

The issue regarding the engine supply for the LRIP batch, as it turns out, was misconveyed by MoFA Fidan. It wasn't blocked; the US State Department hasn't submitted it to Congress yet and is seemingly waiting for the right time to pass it without issue.

We've been told so many times that the testing schedule will rapidly accelerate with P1 onwards, and this intense schedule will be carried out with multiple prototypes at the same time, just like the KF-21. The IWBs will be present in the Block 10 LRIP delivery configuration, but will be blocked by the software, meaning the IWB tests will continue until the Block 20 delivery, which is set for 2030.

With all of these details in mind, delivering the first LRIP units of Kaan in Q4 2028/Q1 2029 as per the official plan seems actually quite possible to me. I do anticipate possible minor delays, but that won’t have much impact on the timeline anyway.

GTU-0/P0 was rolled out right around the CDR review and was flown twice to test the flight control software of the real prototypes. Visually, it’s not much different from the real production-representative P1; the only difference is the intakes and the fact that the P1 is being equipped with actual mission-capable equipment like sensors, countermeasures, mission computers, and so on.
 
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snne said:
With all of these details in mind, delivering the first LRIP units of Kaan in Q4 2028/Q1 2029 as per the official plan seems actually quite possible to me. I do anticipate possible minor delays, but that won’t have much impact on the timeline anyway.
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Ah, LRIP v IOC; we're comparing different things.
Then nvm, I don't think we're in much of disagreement, and even if, it's 1-2 years left or right.

My main point was really that Eurofigher is set to become spear of TAF for quite a while.
 
Ainen said:
Ah, LRIP v IOC; we're comparing different things.
Then nvm, I don't think we're in much of disagreement, and even if, it's 1-2 years left or right.
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IOC will definitely come later, but as you said, if there's even a delay, it'll only be minor in the lifetime of a program as grand as this one.

Ainen said:
My main point was really that Eurofigher is set to become spear of TAF for quite a while.
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For sure, why else would you buy such an expensive weapon in such negligible numbers, when you have the option of buying more of what you already have, or gritting your teeth a bit more while you wait for indigenous B-plans?

I still am disappointed about the CAPTOR-E (of the Qatari planes) though...
 
snne said:
I still am disappointed about the CAPTOR-E (of the Qatari planes) though...
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ECRS mk.2 doesn't exist as a deliverable yet. Given that they expect first (pre)production sets in later 2027, t's a ~2028-2029 system at the earliest.
ECRS mk.0 is still best Eurofighter set for years to come, and as such a T4 force is probably best you can get before 2030.
 
Ainen said:
ECRS mk.2 doesn't quite exist as a deliverable yet. Given that they expect first production sets in later 2027, t's a ~2028-2029 system.
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At least the CAPTOR-E will serve as a useful benchmark (and a much better one than SABR!) for comparing the performance of the MURAD-100A, which is set to equip hundreds of F-16, Kizilelma, Hürjet, Akinci, etc.

What really disappoints me about the CAPTOR-E though, is what's behind the TR-modules. There's a reason why the J-10CE actually performed better in that exercise with fewer TR-modules and less cooling/power...
 
B/w the Typhoon rebound and the Gripen possible huge order, they are definitively going to be quite active in Britain. Let's hope that they double down on quality with the required rapid increase in capacity. That would be an error with historical consequences to fail here. Do not forget Austria and MKI.

@Lascaris : you are a master of Carom billards, I see. But why wouldn´t they simply up the ante with additional F-35?
 
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TomcatViP said:
B/w the Typhoon rebound and the Gripen possible huge order, they are definitively going to be quite active in Britain. Let's hope that they double down on quality with the required rapid increase in capacity. That would be an error with historical consequences to fail here. Do not forget Austria and MKI.

@Lascaris : you are a master of Carom billards, I see. But why wouldn´t they simply up the ante with additional F-35?
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That's is happening anyway it's 20+20 F-35 and the second batch is certain to be ordered between politics and it being a 5th generation fighter. So no real change there. The additional order of 6-12 Rafale to replace Mirage 2000-5 wasn't looking as certain to me, not when the money could be going to the F-35 program. But the timetable for Typhoon here is I guess around 2026-27 for the used Typhoons, if they get bought, and around 2030-31 for the new built machines? You ca likely get a couple dozen Rafales in this timeframe but additional F-35 would be more difficult.
snne said:
The issue regarding the engine supply for the LRIP batch, as it turns out, was misconveyed by MoFA Fidan. It wasn't blocked; the US State Department hasn't submitted it to Congress yet and is seemingly waiting for the right time to pass it without issue.
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Dunno about this, but generally speaking it seems to me that the obvious black hole in the whole program is the engine development. So how much of the Typhoon deal is about getting Rolls Royce help with the development of TF35000 or for that matter actual EJ200 engines to play with and reverse engineer/ get development ideas?
 
I don’t want to delve too much into the KAAN topic here since this isn’t the right thread for it, but I assure you that all of your questions have already been addressed in that thread...
 
https://militaeraktuell.at/en/eurofighter-tranche-5-what-we-know-so-far/
...signed the contracts for the realization of 20 Eurofighters of the new Tranche 5 with a total value of around 3.75 billion euros for the German Bundeswehr .... Delivery of the new Tranche 5 aircraft is scheduled to begin in 2031 and be completed by 2034 – five handovers to the Air Force are planned each year. Even though no comprehensive technical details have yet been published, it is already clear where the development of the new Eurofighter Tranche 5 is heading. No major structural changes to the aircraft are currently planned – the main innovations lie in the electronics and system architecture. ... The central on-board system will be the new CAPTOR-E/ECRS Mk 1 target search and fire control radar with active electronic beam steering (AESA), which offers significantly improved target detection in the air and on the ground. ... Another major innovation concerns the electronic self-protection system: in future, the Arexis suite from the Swedish manufacturer Saab will be integrated in future ... Incidentally, the planned 15 Eurofighter “EK” aircraft, which are to take over the role of the Tornado ECR fleet in electronic warfare (EloKa), are not from the new Tranche 5. Instead, they are converted aircraft from Tranche 3A.
... Specific details on the future weapon and sensor systems of Tranche 5 are still pending. The exact equipment with weapons, sensors, communication and data link systems will be determined step by step in subsequent contracts during the development phase.
However, it is likely that modern precision weapons such as the AARGM (Advanced Anti-Radiation Guided Missile) and the Taurus cruise missile will be integrated. The integration of Brimstone and Spear air-to-ground guided missiles is also considered possible – depending on the respective development status and possibly in cooperation with the Royal Air Force and BAE Systems. The connection to future unmanned escort aircraft such as Loyal Wingman or CCA drones is also likely to be a focus of further work.
It is also unclear to what extent Tranche 5 will dovetail with the long-term LTE (Long Term Evolution) modernization package that Eurofighter and Airbus have been preparing for years. It seems possible that the current concept of gradual LTE upgrades will be replaced by a more comprehensive mid-life upgrade (MLU), which should keep the Eurofighter combat-ready well into the 2050s.

Instead of thinking in terms of large block modernizations, an approach is emerging that relies on continuous, modular upgrades – with a focus on the ongoing improvement of computing power, avionics, sensor fusion, electronic warfare and networking with unmanned systems.
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I liked this article. Brought some scattered information well together.
 
Geo said:
Turkey, India, Egypt, Qatar, Indonesia...
It seems that zoo parks are a trend, as diversification of suppliers is a priority in the current (and future) turbulent world.
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Wdym? Turkey's entire fighter fleet is made up of F-16s; there are only about 20 F-4E 2020 Terminators left, and they're on their way out anyway.

Diversifying aircraft types in your air force is only natural when you are developing your own fighter jets, and their maintenance is much easier than maintaining foreign aircraft. Turkey's developing Kaan, Hürjet, Kızılelma, and Anka-3 at the same time, with the latter three about to enter service soon.

Up until about 12 years ago, the TurAF always had a fleet strength of roughly around 350 aircraft. Nowadays, it's down to about 250 total.
 
snne said:
Wdym? Turkey's entire fighter fleet is made up of F-16s; there are only about 20 F-4E 2020 Terminators left, and they're on their way out anyway.

Diversifying aircraft types in your air force is only natural when you are developing your own fighter jets, and their maintenance is much easier than maintaining foreign aircraft. Turkey's developing Kaan, Hürjet, Kızılelma, and Anka-3 at the same time, with the latter three about to enter service soon.

Up until about 12 years ago, the TurAF always had a fleet strength of roughly around 350 aircraft. Nowadays, it's down to about 250 total.
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But they are also still pursuing 40 F-35, an additional 40 F-16 which wont start being delivered until 2030 and have/will have bought 44 Eurofighter with options for another 20. They bought 50 upgrade kits for F-16 to be installed on 40 aircraft before cancelling the request for an additional 79 switching to the domestic upgrade programme.

Chasing fresh orders for three different foreign aircraft some of which wont even be introduced until after the KAAN is supposed to enter service isn't showing much faith in its domestic development, likewise TAI said they expected to manufacture 300 Hurjets by 2030 of which 100 would be for Turkey but Turkey has reduced its initial order from 17 to 16 and removed its order for four Block 0 instead switching them to more polished Block 1's (saying you are getting them a year earlier is meaningless when the aircraft itself is running 3-4 years behind its 2018 schedule). Are we seriously expecting orders for another 84 by 2030?
 
WatcherZero said:
But they are also still pursuing 40 F-35, an additional 40 F-16 which wont start being delivered until 2030 and have/will have bought 44 Eurofighter with options for another 20. They bought 50 upgrade kits for F-16 to be installed on 40 aircraft before cancelling the request for an additional 79 switching to the domestic upgrade programme.

Chasing fresh orders for three different foreign aircraft some of which wont even be introduced until after the KAAN is supposed to enter service isn't showing much faith in its domestic development, likewise TAI said they expected to manufacture 300 Hurjets by 2030 of which 100 would be for Turkey but Turkey has reduced its initial order from 17 to 16 and removed its order for four Block 0 instead switching them to more polished Block 1's (saying you are getting them a year earlier is meaningless when the aircraft itself is running 3-4 years behind its 2018 schedule). Are we seriously expecting orders for another 84 by 2030?
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I don't know where to begin... You better check your sources from now on...

TAI expects to produce 300 Hürjets over the entire duration of the program. There has been no reduction in orders or change in configuration either; those initial 16 aircraft will go directly to the Turkish Stars aerobatic team, followed by a T-38M replacement order.

Chasing fresh orders for three different foreign aircraft some of which wont even be introduced until after the KAAN is supposed to enter service
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Second-hand jets are reportedly going to arrive in early 2026.

snne said:
Again, the issue is that the TurAF is frankly six years late in ordering new jets. They need all the jets they can get their hands on, and this won't end with the Eurofighter deal either. They will keep doing everything they can to receive 6 Turkish-owned and 34 new F-35s as well.
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snne said:
No, TurAF is looking to procure 40 + 40 jets of two different types (ideally the F-35 and the Eurofighter.) If that doesn't work out, they'll proceed with the Eurofighter only, as the F-16 contract has been cancelled. They believe that upgrading the entire fleet with the indigenous Özgür modernization program, along with SLEP kits from Lockheed is more optimal. (though I will miss those TMLA adapters)
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Again, TurAF's actual target is the F-35, and they would much rather buy F-35s than F-16s. But the Americans have basically told them, 'Procure the F-16s first, and we'll see about the F-35 later.'...
 
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snne said:
Again, TurAF's actual target is the F-35, and they would much rather buy F-35s than F-16s. But the Americans have basically told them, 'Procure the F-16s first, and we'll see about the F-35 later.'...
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Thats patently false as the application to procure the 40 F-16's and a further 79 upgrade kits for $23bn was made in 2021, long before Trump came along and said he might sell them F-35 after all (Biden was never going to give a rival of Israel F-35's), then last year they opted to cancel the 79 upgrade kits six month after completing the deal for them saying they would do $1bn of domestic upgrades instead. The Turkish government this year said its requirement was for 120 transitional fighters, 40 of each. One thing it did disagree on was it wanted the F-16 to be assembled under license in Turkey while the US refused.

The novated Qatar orders if that deal is signed would start arriving in 2026, then refurbished Oman ones in 2027/8 but the fresh Eurofighter Turkey has itself just signed for wont start being delivered until 2030. The F-16 would arrive in 2030 at the earliest if ordered and the F-35 unless they opted for Block 3 would likely be at least 2032 based on the backlog of countries waiting for the Block 4 which is not now expected to be completed until 2031.
 
Gentlemen,

this Turkey here, Turkey there, Hürjet, Kaan, TurAF whatever doesn't belong to this thread. It's about the Typhoon and you derail this thread for too long IMO. Ever since Turkey expressed its interest in the Typhoon in 2023 this thread has been frequently derailed into a "Turkish Airforce and military aircraft" general debate. Information about the Typhoon for Turkey belongs here, everything else doesn't! It becomes tiresome to read the some offtopic things over and over again...
 
Imo a waste of money. Typhoon doesn't offer anything significantly new over upgraded F-16, to warrant it's purchase and not like Turkey is in need of new airframes ASAP. Might wait when KAAN is ready.
 
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timmymagic said:
Wow....does that mean elements of Praetorian upgrade are dead?

Although not the full fact ECR variant, along with F-35 post Lot 19, that's a huge upgrade in European EW capabilities.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1986033403032977767
View: https://x.com/GarethJennings3/status/1986033403032977767
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Atleast the German goverment seem like that. Now i did hear from someone at Airbus that a lot of there own development was stopped years ago. Take what you want from that statement...

Anyway is there anything new too LTE?
 
timmymagic said:
Wow....does that mean elements of Praetorian upgrade are dead?
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Before these news it was a mix (Praetorian DASS evo). And till now arexis eurofighters were a 100% german idea.
DASS is UK/Italy product, and there was no news arexis is considered for other Eurofighter fleets.

Honestly i am all for them, if anything b/c idea of procuring a dedicated SEAD(not EW!) aircraft variant in 2020s is so oddly anachronistic, that it should be done just for the sake of secretprojects community. Cool unique variants, yay!
Anduriel said:
Imo a waste of money. Typhoon doesn't offer anything significantly new over upgraded F-16, to warrant it's purchase and not like Turkey is in need of new airframes ASAP. Might wait when KAAN is ready.
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Supercruise&far superior kinematics, Meteor, reasonably powerful AESA, comprehensive defensive suit, availability tomorrow, not in a future far far away.
It's a solid deal, this aircraft is simply one class above F-16 blk.70 - and it is signed (blk.70 remains conversations). Ozgur "full" is still in the future, it's in development, and not at its final stages. It's also by default limited by number of airframes TAF has(and probably not 100% of even the applicable number are in condition to go thorugh it anyway).
 
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raptor82 said:
https://www.defensenews.com/global/...ners-push-to-keep-weapons-drone-options-open/
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I did find this bit of, Typhoon related, information in this article interesting.
Turkish officials discussed how they might match a CCA with the 20 Eurofighters Turkey agreed to purchase last month.

Jorge Tamarit-Degenhardt, CEO of the Eurofighter, said he was concerned that adapting the fighter to work with numerous CCAs picked by different customers could prove costly.
“Can we develop CCA integration in different configurations in different countries? We cannot do everything at the same time. We don’t have infinite resources,” he said.
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