Another 350 Asraam for Ukraine. Presumably they are from existing stocks (Block V and lower), also presumably to equip the additional Raven units to be delivered this year.

I don't think we can take the unit cost of current Asraam as £200k per missile from this though...(£70m/350 missiles) that appears to be a 'book value'...but even then I'm doubtful of that being the true book value as surely they have depreciated over time in terms of value in the accounts, even with upgrades over the years...

View: https://x.com/DefenceHQ/status/1937831952024817679
 
I don't think we can take the unit cost of current Asraam as £200k per missile from this though...(£70m/350 missiles) that appears to be a 'book value'...but even then I'm doubtful of that being the true book value as surely they have depreciated over time in terms of value in the accounts, even with upgrades over the years...

Giving these older block AIM-132s away to Ukraine is saving HM's treasury money by not having to pay for them to be upgraded in the factory or to be dismantled and demilitarised.
 
Last edited:
giving these older block AIM-132s away to Ukraine is saving HM's treasury money by not having to pay for them to be upgraded in the factory or to be dismantled and demilitarised.

Block VI were being built new to remove the need to upgrade/re-life the older stock. The older models getting expended in Ukraine is a benefit overall though, in multiple ways....

The £200,000 figure per missile is odd though....that was around the original cost per missile...been many years of depreciation since then which MoD do do in their accounts...
 
giving these older block AIM-132s away to Ukraine is saving HM's treasury money by not having to pay for them to be upgraded in the factory or to be dismantled and demilitarised.
The actual military utility of any traditional WVRAAM is increasingly in doubt although the value of the same missiles as SAMs seems to be ever increasing. I’m not sure there is still scope for anything between 70mm drone busting guided rockets and medium and long ranged radar guided missiles. At very least, IR guided WVRAAMs will be emphasized and I suspect the RAF doesn’t need a very big stockpile of ASRAAMs going forward.
 
Block VI were being built new to remove the need to upgrade/re-life the older stock. The older models getting expended in Ukraine is a benefit overall though, in multiple ways....

The £200,000 figure per missile is odd though....that was around the original cost per missile...been many years of depreciation since then which MoD do do in their accounts...
I mean it seems like a pretty good idea to pay the original purchase price without depreciation given it's Russian money? I don't know how much Russian money there is to use, but if it takes some goal oriented accounting to get ahold of it, that seems reasonable.
 
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/uk-raven-air-defence-system-proving-vital-in-ukraine/
Not sure if this has been posted before, but this is the most interesting part IMO.

'Colonel Todd describes Raven as an “amazing system” that was developed in collaboration between UK industry, the RAF Air and Space Warfare Centre, MBDA, and DE&S. He notes that it has demonstrated significant success in Ukraine, with over 400 engagements recorded so far, achieving a success rate of more than 70%. The system has proven particularly effective against drones, cruise missiles, and potentially against aircraft and helicopters.'

70% is the average success rate across all target types (drones, cruise missiles, helicopters, aircraft, ballistic missiles, air to surface missiles). However, the official notes that the system is particularly effective against drones and cruise missiles.

IRIS-T SLM and SLS have reportedly received close to 100% success rates in Ukraine. How do Raven and Sky Sabre stack up, and are we likely to see Sky Sabre sent to Ukraine as Germany did with the IRIS-T?
 
RIS-T SLM and SLS have reportedly received close to 100% success rates in Ukraine. How do Raven and Sky Sabre stack up, and are we likely to see Sky Sabre sent to Ukraine as Germany did with the IRIS-T?

Raven is an ad hoc system making best use of some free, disparate components. In terms of comparison it would make sense to compare to the (admittedly less ad hoc) IRIS-T SL systems donated by Sweden (with Norwegian missiles I believe).

Sky Sabre and IRIS-T SLM are broadly similar. Both have/will add longer range variants (CAMM-ER and SLX) and there is potential for more (CAMM-MR).

But...near zero chance of any Sky Sabre turning up in Ukraine....IRIS-T SLM got lucky in some respects with the Egyptian order that was able to be re-profiled and then German Gov sensibly piled in with orders....meanwhile Sky Sabre production of fire units for UK has been comparatively glacial, but component production for the huge Polish order will likely occupy them for years....both systems will sell well...but as ever in UK procurement there is a 'what if?' around the position if the UK had actually ordered the full 24 systems originally and got scaled production of fire units etc. humming earlier...the actual missile production line should be white hot though...

It's not just a UK thing though...you could level the same criticism of France with it MICA SAM system, which was arguably in a better place than IRIS-T SLM or Sky Sabre for increased production for Ukraine....all comes down to Government backing...

In terms of comparable 'European' (accepting some US content but excluding Turkish systems) systems you've got Land Ceptor, IRIS-T SLM, MICA and NASAMS...its a little complex as there are national variants of these but looking at the systems and missile families:

'Ceptor' variants - Has gained big land customers like UK, Italy (in EMAD guise) and Poland. Doing very well in Maritime sales and in Air has a future with Typhoon, F-35 and GCAP integrations plus clear developments into the future.

IRIS-T SLM variants - Has got big customers in Germany, Egypt and Ukraine (albeit funded by others). Has gained some smaller orders in Europe recently, mainly from smaller countries but all with potential to grow larger over time. Maritime sales non existent but Germany appears to be moving towards that in future, but they might find most of the market closed off by then by CAMM, ESSM and MICA. Air sales started very well with the initial slug of orders but then tailed off completely, will get a boost from recent German framework and Saudi replen and potential for Korean order. Air future is a little unclear though...its not integrated with F-35. Unlikely to gain any further orders from F-16 users as they transition away. A lot will hinge on any new orders for Gripen and Typhoon and if the replacement FCAAM gets built and then gets integrated on platforms like F-35 or just on SCAF. With SLX on the way and SL it has a clear route forward in the land, and potentially, maritime arena as well.

MICA/NG - Bit of an odd one out...for unclear reasons. Should have been very well positioned, particularly given how long its been around, the new NG variants and production status when Ukraine kicked off to pick up far more land sales and for production to be expanded. Overall Land sales are modest and appear to have stalled a little, noticeably with France not buying it, maritime sales better (again with France not buying it) but still in modest actual quantities, air sales are better than you'd think (with some large orders from France, India, Taiwan and UAE the standouts) but spread over a 30 year period. But its future is totally tied to Rafale as Mirage 2000 slowly bow out....It may well come down to cost as its rumoured to be quite expensive...and is neither fish nor fowl as an A2A missile

NASAMS - You'd probably have to say its the stand out success...little old Norway (in conjunction with Raytheon) persisted in developing it AND buying and deploying it, despite the end of the Cold War, like they did with NSM...and have been rewarded with sales that they had no real right to as a result of that long term view, its adaptable design, missile selection and their persistence...plus everyone else taking their eye completely off the ball (see NSM for the best example)...Obviously no maritime or air sales for NASAMS (air would be AMRAAM/AIM-9X under US) but steady sales of systems, multiple users, good supply of missiles, new upgraded variants...all from a very modest initial investment..
 
MICA/NG - Bit of an odd one out...for unclear reasons.
For very clear reasons I'd say. VL MICA is just a bad system - the missile comes in a sealed VLS module, which makes it unnecessarily large for land use, and it has no folding fins, which again makes it way larger than it needs to be, this time for both land and naval use. So you get just 4 missiles per TEL for land use and a more less Sylver-sized VLS (but lighter) for naval applications.

As for the ASRAAM in Ukraine, I wonder if its success as a SAM could lead to its integration with the iLauncher. It would be a nice option to be able to recycle older missiles.
 
As for the ASRAAM in Ukraine, I wonder if its success as a SAM could lead to its integration with the iLauncher. It would be a nice option to be able to recycle older missiles.

Don't think thats a goer....iLauncher is built around soft vertical launch from containerised rounds. To add 'old' Asraam would require launch rails, could damage the rest of the launcher due to efflux and if there were containerised rounds alongside the efflux could damage them...the Asraam rounds also don't have the tip over mechanism that CAMM has...

If we had spare kit to make some more Raven though it could make some sense...but that would also depend on the life left in the missiles...

Personally, I'd rather see the UK develop a NOMAD style unit based on new Supacat HMT600 (with the armoured enclosed dual cab) chassis with radar (Blighter style on mast or Saab Giraffe 1X), EO/IR, RWS and 2-4 CAMM rounds on the back as a standalone system that could be deployed forward of Land Ceptor batteries and operate independently...but also connected via networks. Stick it alongside the HMT600 with Moog RWS equipped with 30mm and 8 Starstreak/LMM and you have a useful capability. More likely to get some export sales from that as well...
 
Last edited:
Personally I'd like to see either a CAMM-SR or the reduced size ASRAAM (options for GCAP) developed.
Ideally launch on the move, able to provide continuous cover as forces move into or out of position.
I'd look at a anti-armour variant of this as well.
 
Don't think thats a goer....iLauncher is built around soft vertical launch from containerised rounds. To add 'old' Asraam would require launch rails, could damage the rest of the launcher due to efflux and if there were containerised rounds alongside the efflux could damage them...the Asraam rounds also don't have the tip over mechanism that CAMM has...
I think it should be possible. The missile rack on the iLauncher protrudes past the chassis in the launch position, so the chassis and the rest of the launcher shouldn't be affected, and the missile rack* can be designed in a way that deflects the efflux away from the launcher. And I don't think a tipover mechanism is necessary. Yes, vertical launch would slightly reduce the range, but I'd say that being able to reuse older AAMs would still make it a viable option.

*By missile rack I mean this btw, probably the single greatest advantage of the iLauncher:
1751307446193.png
So since this part is swappable for reload, kinda like MLRS missile pods, I think there is a way to design such a rack with like 4-6 ASRAAM launch rails and some sort of deflector plate to prevent the efflux gasses from damaging the launcher and/or the chassis.


Personally, I'd rather see the UK develop a NOMAD style unit based on new Supacat HMT600 (with the armoured enclosed dual cab) chassis with radar (Blighter style on mast or Saab Giraffe 1X), EO/IR, RWS and 2-4 CAMM rounds on the back as a standalone system that could be deployed forward of Land Ceptor batteries and operate independently...but also connected via networks. Stick it alongside the HMT600 with Moog RWS equipped with 30mm and 8 Starstreak/LMM and you have a useful capability. More likely to get some export sales from that as well...
That is a very nice idea, though I'm not sure if CAMM is able to be launched at an angle, and I doubt you can launch them vertically on the move (stability issues, the missile canister is just too tall for that). ASRAAM can be launched at an angle though, and that idea reminds me of the IRIS-T SLS Mk.III, a British equivalent of which would definitely be viable - on the HMT600, with said ASRAAMs (maybe more than just two though) and so on.


Personally I'd like to see either a CAMM-SR or the reduced size ASRAAM (options for GCAP) developed.
Ideally launch on the move, able to provide continuous cover as forces move into or out of position.
I'd look at a anti-armour variant of this as well.
That sounds very much like something the LMM could evolve into, if Thales decides to extend its range to say, past 10 km.
 
Last edited:
The actual military utility of any traditional WVRAAM is increasingly in doubt although the value of the same missiles as SAMs seems to be ever increasing. I’m not sure there is still scope for anything between 70mm drone busting guided rockets and medium and long ranged radar guided missiles. At very least, IR guided WVRAAMs will be emphasized and I suspect the RAF doesn’t need a very big stockpile of ASRAAMs going forward.
I wouldn't agree, given the proliferation of cheap, one-way attack drones and loitering munitions. We've seen Ukrainan and Jordanian aircraft use WVR missiles like AIM-9L/M and R-73 against these types, so I wouldn't write off the capabilities of such systems just yet, especially given the volatility of areas like the Middle East and Eastern Europe at this present time.
 
I wouldn't agree, given the proliferation of cheap, one-way attack drones and loitering munitions. We've seen Ukrainan and Jordanian aircraft use WVR missiles like AIM-9L/M and R-73 against these types, so I wouldn't write off the capabilities of such systems just yet, especially given the volatility of areas like the Middle East and Eastern Europe at this present time.
Are these kinds of targets "worthy" of a missile like this? The APKWS and its counterparts seem to be adequate for intercepting Shaheds, so an ASRAAM or AIM-9, even in their older variants, are a bit of a waste here.
 
Are these kinds of targets "worthy" of a missile like this? The APKWS and its counterparts seem to be adequate for intercepting Shaheds, so an ASRAAM or AIM-9, even in their older variants, are a bit of a waste here.
APKWS mounted on a 5" Zuni rocket is called a Sidewinder.

But yes, I think that WVRAAMs are less likely to be carried for Air Superiority missions and more likely to be carried for Air Policing and cruise missile defense.

Remember, the cost-exchange ratio is not ASRAAM-versus-Sahed, it's factory-versus-Sahed.
 
Are these kinds of targets "worthy" of a missile like this? The APKWS and its counterparts seem to be adequate for intercepting Shaheds, so an ASRAAM or AIM-9, even in their older variants, are a bit of a waste here.
It really depends on the depth of your stocks at that point. If you have 10,000 old R-73s, Sidewinders or Sparrows which are about to expire, I doubt you'd really care whether it's "worth" it. The Ukrainians and Israelis both do this. Also keep in mind that these are using up munitions which would have likely needed to have been demobilised anyways, in addition to what is the most important factor; which is that those drones are likely heading towards something a lot more expensive than the cost of the missile fired at it.
 
I think it should be possible. The missile rack on the iLauncher protrudes past the chassis in the launch position, so the chassis and the rest of the launcher shouldn't be affected, and the missile rack* can be designed in a way that deflects the efflux away from the launcher. And I don't think a tipover mechanism is necessary. Yes, vertical launch would slightly reduce the range, but I'd say that being able to reuse older AAMs would still make it a viable option.

Sure you could do that (you'd also need to account for debris thrown up by hot launch). But at the end you'd end up with something that couldn't utilise the CDL, is limited to fair weather engagements, needs significant change to utilise a missile stockpile that has almost reached end of life (remember MoD decided that re-lifing Asraam was almost as expensive as new build missiles).

That is a very nice idea, though I'm not sure if CAMM is able to be launched at an angle,

CAMM can be launched at an angle, but I have no idea on the limits to that.

That sounds very much like something the LMM could evolve into, if Thales decides to extend its range to say, past 10 km.

Thales did propose a single stage rocket motor, which would take space currently utilised for the kick motor. It would be suitable to RWS launch and should extend range a little. It's not been taken forward to date, I guess cost is a factor but also the benefits of a common stockpile also are there.
 
Not if the alternative expenditure is a point-defence missile.
Surely the alternative, given the way Rapidfire is reported to work, is one-quarter of a point defence missile? In that case, Martlet/LMM becomes competitive in terms of cost.
 
Not if the alternative expenditure is a point-defence missile.
Just use a conventional gun and ammunition? If you're using a gun at all - a short range guided missile/rocket appears the better choice.

Cost could go down if 40mm CTA ammo is produced in greater quantities - but that still seems to be the cost for it in full rate production now.
 
You could make a 5" APKWS but it would be significantly cheaper than a Sidewinder.
That's actually a pretty good idea considering that from what I've heard, guidance sections are the bottleneck in the AIM9's production.

Sure you could do that (you'd also need to account for debris thrown up by hot launch). But at the end you'd end up with something that couldn't utilise the CDL, is limited to fair weather engagements, needs significant change to utilise a missile stockpile that has almost reached end of life (remember MoD decided that re-lifing Asraam was almost as expensive as new build missiles).
ASRAAM (in general, not just the old variants) isn't going out of production though, is it? Because I meant such an integration as a way to use missiles that can't be used for A2A anymore, something like the IRIS-T SLS or the NASAMS. And if the production of the ASRAAM will continue, I think a system like this would be useful.

CAMM can be launched at an angle, but I have no idea on the limits to that.
You mean an angle bigger than that in the Mushroom Farm tubes?
 
And if the production of the ASRAAM will continue, I think a system like this would be useful.

It will continue if for no other reason than replacing all of the pre-Block VI rounds with the new ITAR-free Block VI AIM-132.
 
The saga of Brazil adopting CAMM/CAMM-ER for land service might be reaching an end...or might not...


https://www.forte.jor.br/2025/07/07...mbda-no-lugar-do-akash-indiano/#goog_rewarded
Google Translation of article

Brazil has decided to suspend negotiations with India to acquire a new air defense system and has begun talks with Italy to finalize a purchase that could reach R$5 billion. The Army's goal is to overcome one of the country's greatest military vulnerabilities: its current limitation on intercepting aerial threats above 3,000 meters.

Until now, the Brazilian Army had been in advanced talks with Indian companies regarding the acquisition of the Akash system, developed by Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) and Bharat Electronics (BEL). The system, designed for medium- and long-range defense, was seen as a key element in consolidating Brazil as a regional power in air defense, capable of responding to attacks from aircraft, drones, and cruise missiles.

However, military sources interviewed by CNN revealed that negotiations with the Indians have been halted. The impasse reportedly arose because Indian companies insisted on selling Brazil an earlier version of the Akash system, which, although using indigenous technology, is considered less advanced than the newer model, developed in cooperation with Israeli companies. "They wanted to push a more outdated system, without foreign technological participation," said a source close to the negotiations.

The issue may still be discussed between President Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva and Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi during the BRICS leaders' summit. Even so, negotiations with India are officially on hold.

Given this scenario, Brazil began negotiating with Italy the purchase of the Emads system, produced by MBDA in partnership with Leonardo. The Emads is part of the same family of surface-to-air missiles planned to equip the Tamandaré-class frigates, currently under construction in Itajaí, Santa Catarina, for the Brazilian Navy. For the Brazilian military, this coincidence opens the door to facilitating logistical support, personnel training, and even potential agreements for local missile production, expanding the national defense industrial base.

In addition to the acquisition of anti-aircraft systems, Brazil is also interested in trying to facilitate the sale of KC-390 military transport aircraft, manufactured by Embraer, to the Italian government. During negotiations with India, the Brazilian government sought to include the aircraft as part of a "government-to-government" agreement. Although talks with the Italians once again include this possibility, sources close to the negotiations clarify that the purchase of the Emads system will not necessarily depend on the sale of the KC-390s.
 
Interesting snippet in the Lancaster House 2.0 press releases:

"Focus greater efforts on integrated air and missile defence (IAMD) in our capability relationship, including (but not limited to) C-UAS and counter-hypersonic capabilities, drawing especially from the Aster family increments, including potentially SAMP/T NG and CAMM."

Not quite sure what that means, integrating LandCeptor and the SAMP/T C2 systems?
 
I am wondering why Brazil is talking with Italy about EMADS. Isn't UK the lead developer of EMADS?
 
I am wondering why Brazil is talking with Italy about EMADS. Isn't UK the lead developer of EMADS?
EMADS is used by MBDA to refer to Land Ceptor in UK service and EMADS in Italian usage. As a result when you read EMADS in the defence press they're usually talking specifically about the Italian variant with Kronos radar and CAMM-ER.

Brazil was looking at an Astros based CAMM system originally, but as they've cancelled negotiations with India and the Akash missile you'd have to assume their requirement has gone to slightly longer ranges which the Italian led CAMM-ER would fulfil.
 
Not quite sure what that means, integrating LandCeptor and the SAMP/T C2 systems?
CAMM-ER (aswell as MICA) is already integrated into SAMP/T NG, so integrating CAMM should be pretty easy :

See here : https://eurosam.com/samp-t-ng-a-new-system-for-the-multi-layered-air-defence/

Thanks to the open architecture of its Module of Engagement New Generation (ME NG), the Multirange/Multilayer SAMP/T NG will be able to:
  • integrate various multifunction firing radars such as Thales Ground Fire or Leonardo Kronos Grand Mobile High Power
  • integrate and manage distinct launchers:
    • up to six ASTER launchers with 8 missiles ready to fire (combination of ASTER 30 B1 and B1NT)
    • up to six Short-Range Air Defence (SHORAD) launchers such as VL MICA or CAMM-ER launchers
  • manage V-SHORAD assets
  • be fully integrated in a NATO Tactical Control Chain and in a Command Chain with upper layer Command and Control centers.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom