Irish Naval Service / Irish Navy

Lordarpad said:
Fancy seeing you here. And Captas 1 is probably the absolute maximum of what makes sense.
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We meet again...:D
Yeah, given the limitations of the 60's it makes sense, now to find out how many we are actually buying and hopefully builds up knowledge for the 50's replacements.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I'm sure the UKRN submariners will take great pleasure in being the OPFOR. As will the Americans. And possibly the French.
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Given the Astute’s issues I’d imagine they would have better things to be doing. Also I wonder how thrilled the U.K. would be if we started sitting up by Donegal when the boomers are going in and out?
 
Lordarpad said:
Any idea how recruitment is going these days?
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The numbers have been up in the recent classes, to soon to see if that’s a long term trend emerging or a short term blip, but even then there’s still pinch points in the specialists areas.
 
sparky42 said:
Given the Astute’s issues I’d imagine they would have better things to be doing. Also I wonder how thrilled the U.K. would be if we started sitting up by Donegal when the boomers are going in and out?
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It would make more sense for the UK to let the Irish do a FOST or work as OPFOR in the DE Perisher course, which usually uses Dutch Walrus boats.
 
Excerpted from A History of the Irish Naval Service by Aidan McIvor (1994 edition), pages 122-123:

1861 Naval Policy Memorandum

Role The role of the Naval Service in wartime is as follows:


  • anti-submarine patrol of terroritoral seas;

  • minesweeping in the approaches to ports and and passage sweeping in territorial waters

  • the seaward defence of the four defended ports


Organisation To carry out this role would require the following organisation:


  • A Naval Headquarters complete with a naval intelligence section; its own communications station, merchant navy and port liasion section.
  • The division of the coast into three distinct naval districts with bases at Dublin, Cork, and Limerick. The suggested naval districts were:
Eastern District-Carlingford to Mine Head
Southern District-Minehead to Brandon
Western District-Brandon to Inishowen
These districts were to be responsible for the coasts in their area; for the naval side of seaward defence of the ports in their area;
and repair and supply of ships.
  • The establishment of a supply sub-base at Killybegs or Lough Swilly under the control of Western District.

  • Seaward defence port headquarters, in each of the defended ports: Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Waterford.


Vessels and craft needed for such a task

The memorandum stated that in order to provide Ireland with an adequate naval defence, four different categories of naval vessel would have to be purchased. They were as follows:
8 all-weather fast anti-submarine frigates
6 coastal minesweepers
11 inshore minesweepers
12 seaward defence boats
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As with the 1950s attempt to procure frigates, the preferred candidate for the frigate requirement was the Type 12 Blackwood-class, though the Loch-class was also looked at as a lower cost alternate.

For the coastal minesweepers, the preferred design was (rather ironically as the author notes) the Coniston-class, also known as the Ton Class.

The inshore minesweepers were to be the Ham-class, with two assigned to each defended port with the last three acting as a reserve.

The seaward defence boats were to be the Ford-class, specifically designed for the Royal Navy to able to detect, locate and destroy submarines, including midget submarines, in the approaches to a defended port. They had a 110 feet length and a displacement of 120 tons, with armament consisting of a single 40mm Bofors gun, flares and one Squid triple barrelled depth-charge mortar or depth-charge rails.
 
Seems more of an unfunded wishlist from someone in the Naval base than an actual department position, the sheer scale of that, along with some of the dated references to "defended ports" just seems off. There was no capacity in the NS at that point for such a large uplift (my godfather's father at that stage was basically being kept on past retirement to keep the Flower's Steam plants going), let alone getting the Army to sign off on backing it. It would also mean having to buy most of the class off the RN (presuming that it wasn't going to be new buy), though the suggestion of the Ton's did manage to make it through, wouldn't want to imagine the Ford class operating off the West Coast in any Winter weather though.
 
Grey Havoc said:
Excerpted from A History of the Irish Naval Service by Aidan McIvor (1994 edition), pages 122-123:



As with the 1950s attempt to procure frigates, the preferred candidate for the frigate requirement was the Type 12 Blackwood-class, though the Loch-class was also looked at as a lower cost alternate.

For the coastal minesweepers, the preferred design was (rather ironically as the author notes) the Coniston-class, also known as the Ton Class.

The inshore minesweepers were to be the Ham-class, with two assigned to each defended port with the last three acting as a reserve.

The seaward defence boats were to be the Ford-class, specifically designed for the Royal Navy to able to detect, locate and destroy submarines, including midget submarines, in the approaches to a defended port. They had a 110 feet length and a displacement of 120 tons, with armament consisting of a single 40mm Bofors gun, flares and one Squid triple barrelled depth-charge mortar or depth-charge rails.
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The only way something like that was EVER going to happen was if the whole of Ireland remained in the UK.

Something close to it might have happened if there’d been better terms for the remaining Royal Navy bases in the South.
 
starviking said:
The only way something like that was EVER going to happen was if the whole of Ireland remained in the UK.

Something close to it might have happened if there’d been better terms for the remaining Royal Navy bases in the South.
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Meh, there are other moments that could have delivered something more than OTl, from the talks in the 20s, to the floated Polish option post WW2, to the planned OTL buys of corvettes or even just not being stupid over the talks to join NATO as it was forming.

Most likely wouldn’t result in such a force, the combination of different minesweepers and the coastal boats suggest to me someone was still trying to ape the RN plans of preWW2.

There’s very little chance of the Treaty Ports being held to that point by the RN and introduces a hell of a lot more butterflies than just a different force structure.
 
Could Ireland be the customer behind this "first export success" of the containerized Captas-1?
https://www.meretmarine.com/fr/defe...uit-les-sonars-remorques-de-la-famille-captas

In Brest, where Thales produces the towed sonars of the Captas family​

...
And then there is the smallest system in the range, the Captas-1, which appeared last, in the 2010s. Equipped with a towed body with a single ring and mainly intended for second-rank platforms such as offshore patrol vessels, this system weighs less than 10 tons and can detect submarines at a distance of about forty kilometers. Already sold to several navies, the Captas-1 has achieved its first commercial success in a new variant presented as a containerized mission module. “The objective is to offer a simple, compact, and easily integrable solution that fits inside a 20-foot container.” This container houses the sonar, to which the passive antenna clips on, as well as the winch with its cable in the so-called “wet” section. The rest of the container, kept dry, contains all the electronics and signal-processing systems.
Able to be placed on the aft deck of a vessel, the system requires only an electrical connection and a link to the Operations Center or the bridge. Thales considered it preferable not to install an operator station inside the module, as this role is better suited to the Operations Center, since anti-submarine warfare requires coordination between sailors to develop strategy and make decisions. The module therefore sends its information to the Operations Center consoles via a dedicated interface. “We believe strongly in this new mission module, which can allow navies without anti-submarine vessels to acquire an initial capability, or enable others to supplement the assets they already have with their frigates. With our different Captas models, we can therefore provide solutions adapted to the size and carrying capacity of ships, as well as to the needs of navies.”
It is with this new Captas-1 Mission Module that Thales has passed the milestone of 100 systems sold worldwide. The first unit is already in production and should be delivered next year. Overall, production over the past 30 years has consisted of about half Captas-4 systems, with the remainder divided more or less equally between Captas-2 and Captas-1.
...
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In the article (paywall depending) there are actually a few photo's of both the Captas 1 head and the assembly of the towing unit, so at least we know progress is being made. Still no clarity on whether its a one off or if all the 60's will be upgraded, the driver's compression container is also fitted as needed so maybe not?
 
I see NavyLookout have caught up with the Journal.ie's story from August about the push from the NS to look again at an Arrowhead 140 for Eithne's replacement.
https://www.navylookout.com/ireland...r-of-a-combat-ship-type-31-frigate-an-option/Think that's still more "British person reading Irish news" rather than actually understanding the process, so far there's no word from the powers on the subject one way or the other, save that the DOD officials don't like military things.
 
sparky42 said:
Think that's still more "British person reading Irish news" rather than actually understanding the process, so far there's no word from the powers on the subject one way or the other, save that the DOD officials don't like military things.
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WTF?

If you Department of Defense officials don't like military things, they should not be in the Department of Defense. :mad:
 
Scott Kenny said:
WTF?

If you Department of Defense officials don't like military things, they should not be in the Department of Defense. :mad:
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The DOD would prefer if they continued to exist and the DF didn’t. Don’t ask, it’s a feud that’s been going since the Civil War and since the DOD head is the accounting officer, they sadly win more than they lose.
 
sparky42 said:
The DOD would prefer if they continued to exist and the DF didn’t. Don’t ask, it’s a feud that’s been going since the Civil War and since the DOD head is the accounting officer, they sadly win more than they lose.
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That seriously needs to be dismantled by the Irish PM (I'm not going to attempt to mangle the Gaelic name of that office), and rebuilt with people who see making the Defense Forces capable as their actual job.
 
Scott Kenny said:
That seriously needs to be dismantled by the Irish PM (I'm not going to attempt to mangle the Gaelic name of that office), and rebuilt with people who see making the Defense Forces capable as their actual job.
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That would require the issue to be something that costs votes at an election, the DOD has made sure that the DF is so marginalised that it doesn’t effectively come up and if/when something goes wrong the DOD will happily sidestep responsibility.

It’s a complete mess, no question and the list of screw ups is long and bitter between the department and the DF, but as public servants the DOD are far more protected.
 
The Department of Finance doesn't help matters either, not to mention the equally infamous Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (DPER), whose full name nowadays incidentally is the 'Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation'.
 
Grey Havoc said:
The Department of Finance doesn't help matters either, not to mention the equally infamous Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (DPER), whose full name nowadays incidentally is the 'Department of Public Expenditure, Infrastructure, Public Service Reform and Digitalisation'.
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They are certainly a problem, but one all the departments need to deal with DOD are the shower of shite that expected to be thanked after not spending their budgets fully year after year even as the DF were screaming for resources. And so far there doesn’t seem to be any shift in their stance of slow rolling as much as possible.
 
So the Revised NDP is signed off and to be announced tomorrow, briefings suggest only continued purchases of sonar systems for the fleet as the major part, maybe the secondary armament replacement as well, the MRV/EPV/MCV/insert whatever you want, certainly seems nowhere to be seen.
 
So yeah, the MRV was dropped from the Revised documents, an optimist might hope it means the argument over maybe a frigate instead of a baby amphib is happening, but never be optimistic about Irish defence...
What was noted was a "P60 Fleet Extension Program"? Not sure what exactly they mean by that?
The outgoing Commodore has confirmed that follow on units of the sonar are planned, so enough for the 60's? Strangely though, the paragraph on the Navy in the "plan" (7 fecking pages in total not counting the cover sheet, mostly "we're putting this out because we have to") also references "a Sonobuoy project", separate to the towed sonar acquisition?
 
sparky42 said:
The outgoing Commodore has confirmed that follow on units of the sonar are planned, so enough for the 60's? Strangely though, the paragraph on the Navy in the "plan" (7 fecking pages in total not counting the cover sheet, mostly "we're putting this out because we have to") also references "a Sonobuoy project", separate to the towed sonar acquisition?
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Maybe with a UAV as delivery platform ?
The VSR700, Schiebel S-300 or Proteus should all be capable of deploying Sonobuoys
 

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Titus K said:
Maybe with a UAV as delivery platform ?
The VSR700, Schiebel S-300 or Proteus should all be capable of deploying Sonobuoys
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That's an idea that's been kicking around, the 60's were originally intended for UAV operations (the fallout and ill will from Eithne ruled out anything more), but you really only have the aft container area to play with assuming its ship based, doubt the AC would let the Navy have fixed wing systems. Proteus is too big, but the others might be an option, use 3 20ft containers as a basis for a landing deck?
 
After reading the text above, I became curious how original Eithne design was different from the ship we know.
 
Wasn’t the Damen amphibious design sold to Portugal once discussed for Ireland?
It’s not that expensive, and on top of that it could be presented politically as a ship capable of supporting both military and scientific missions
 

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Odysseus1980 said:
After reading the text above, I became curious how original Eithne design was different from the ship we know.
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Out at the rugby at the moment but tomorrow il dig out the book by her designer. Off the top of my head the design didn’t much change, though as systems went obsolete they weren’t replaced. He had hoped a second one would have a larger landing deck and some changes to her fuel systems. A lot came down to the AC getting notions and screwing up the selection of the helicopter and all the knock ons that brought. Which has left its mark up until now.
 
Titus K said:
Wasn’t the Damen amphibious design sold to Portugal once discussed for Ireland?
It’s not that expensive, and on top of that it could be presented politically as a ship capable of supporting both military and scientific missions
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I’ve seen someone in NL suggest it, though he was also calling the 60s “light frigates”, but no there’s been no suggestion from anyone in the harbour talking about it. The NS doesn’t do scientific work generally, there’s a dedicated maritime research organisation with their own ships.

Damien/the Dutch were mainly have brought more than a few ships to try and get interest but no suggestion it’s the Portuguese design.
 

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