Ideal USAF air superiority fighter for the Vietnam War.

If one has the Super Tiger what about the Hawker 1121 for Australia and New Zealand?
 
uk 75 said:
If one has the Super Tiger what about the Hawker 1121 for Australia and New Zealand?
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I'm not sure the 1121 would be a good stand-in. If you were really lucky that airframe might be able to fit F-4 level of systems. But I suspect that the 1121 is really the RAF F-105. A tactical bomber wearing a Fighter designation.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I'm not sure the 1121 would be a good stand-in. If you were really lucky that airframe might be able to fit F-4 level of systems. But I suspect that the 1121 is really the RAF F-105. A tactical bomber wearing a Fighter designation.
Click to expand...

I'm inclined to agree but am interested in how that is quantified.

IIUC agility is closely linked to wing loading, so what was the approx wing loading of the P1121 and how does that compare to the likes of the F105, F106, F4 and other early 60s fighters? What other factors come into play to make the F105 and aircraft a lot like it (P1121?) a poor candidate for a dedicated fighter?
 
All -

Douglas F5D Skylancer.
- Brought out in 1956. 10yr to develope and refine prior to opined 1966 need date
- 4X 20mm
- Pickup the J-79 w/ vari geometry intakes option, for Mach 2
- Decent size Radome for radar dish
- Missile capable
- Could have been dual-service aircraft, like the F-4

Regards,
357Mag
 
Rule of cool said:
I'm inclined to agree but am interested in how that is quantified.

IIUC agility is closely linked to wing loading, so what was the approx wing loading of the P1121 and how does that compare to the likes of the F105, F106, F4 and other early 60s fighters? What other factors come into play to make the F105 and aircraft a lot like it (P1121?) a poor candidate for a dedicated fighter?
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Wing areas/Gross weights:
F-105: 385sqft/35,675lbs
F-106: 695sqft/34,510lbs
F-101B: 368sqft/45,665lbs
F-4E: 530sqft/41,500lbs

Do you have those numbers for the P1121?

357Mag said:
All -

Douglas F5D Skylancer.
- Brought out in 1956. 10yr to develope and refine prior to opined 1966 need date
- 4X 20mm
- Pickup the J-79 w/ vari geometry intakes option, for Mach 2
- Decent size Radome for radar dish
- Missile capable
- Could have been dual-service aircraft, like the F-4

Regards,
357Mag
Click to expand...
I'd agree that it would work. Except it's a USN plane, and the enemy of the USAF is the USN.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Wing areas/Gross weights:
F-105: 385sqft/35,675lbs
F-106: 695sqft/34,510lbs
F-101B: 368sqft/45,665lbs
F-4E: 530sqft/41,500lbs

Do you have those numbers for the P1121?
Click to expand...

According to the interweb the P1121 had 474' sq wing and weighed something like 42,000lb. It looks like the P1121 was much closer to the F105 than the F4E and nowhere near the F106.
 
Rule of cool said:
According to the interweb the P1121 had 474' sq wing and weighed something like 42,000lb. It looks like the P1121 was much closer to the F105 than the F4E and nowhere near the F106.
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I mean, the F106 is the major outlier in terms of wing area/wing loading.

Some other fighters:
F-8: 375sqft/29,000
F4D: 557sqft/22,700 (another big delta)
Mirage IIIE: 375sqft/21,000
F-18C/D: 410sqft/37,000
 
With similar weights the P1121 needs 56' sq more wing area to match the F4E. What could it get with tips and root fillet additions?
 
Rule of cool said:
With similar weights the P1121 needs 56' sq more wing area to match the F4E. What could it get with tips and root fillet additions?
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Tips would be the easiest to add, though I'd need chord-at-wingtip and amount of wing taper to give a good answer how much you'd need to add per side. 28sqft per side, if the wings are 7ft chord at the tip it'd be 4ft of extra wing length (ish, probably closer to 5ft longer with taper).

I don't like messing with root fillets because you can start throwing strange vortices off if you mess up.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Tips would be the easiest to add, though I'd need chord-at-wingtip and amount of wing taper to give a good answer how much you'd need to add per side. 28sqft per side, if the wings are 7ft chord at the tip it'd be 4ft of extra wing length (ish, probably closer to 5ft longer with taper).

I don't like messing with root fillets because you can start throwing strange vortices off if you mess up.
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The ferry wingtip extensions for Harriers were apparently 18 inches, which had some other effects on flight performance. I presume with the bigger P1121 getting at least 2' per wingtip should be pretty easy, part way to bridging the gap, all of which presumes the F4E is some sort of benchmark of wing loading.

The Lightning F6 had 474' sq wing area and a Gross Weight of 41,000lb, very similar to the P1121 but IIUC it was quite agile.
 
Rule of cool said:
The ferry wingtip extensions for Harriers were apparently 18 inches, which had some other effects on flight performance. I presume with the bigger P1121 getting at least 2' per wingtip should be pretty easy, part way to bridging the gap, all of which presumes the F4E is some sort of benchmark of wing loading.
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Well, gives a number we can compare against, anyways. Without digging into energy-maneuver theory, which requires knowing airframe drag.

Fighters:
F-4 Phantom: 78.3lb/sqft​
F-8 Crusader: 77.3lb/sqft​

Fighter-bombers/attackers:
A-5A Vigilante: 67.9lb/sqft (surprisingly low, explains the pretty impressive maneuverability and speed the Vig was attributed)​
F-105 "Thud": 92.66lb/sqft​
F-18 Hornet: 90.25lb/sqft​
SEPECAT Jaguar: 92.9lb/sqft​
Tornado GR4: 157.34lb/sqft​
F-111 (swept): 157.7lb/sqft​
F-111 (spread): 126lb/sqft​

The big deltas:
Mirage IIIE: 56lb/sqft​
F-106: 49.65lb/sqft​
F4D Skyray: 40.75lb/sqft​


Rule of cool said:
The Lightning F6 had 474' sq wing area and a Gross Weight of 41,000lb, very similar to the P1121 but IIUC it was quite agile.
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Well, roll rate would be good because most of the weight is on centerline. And even the F-105 wasn't terrible, it got some dogfight kills with the cannons. So I'd expect it to be decent. Plus, the large amount of excess power the Lightning has really helps.

But if we want an air superiority fighter as opposed to an interceptor, I want more wing on the p1121.
 
Erm....42,000lb for P1121?
At what load out?
 
Scott-

Howdy !

Why wouldn’t the same dynamics that worked towards McDonell securing F-4 oders from both the U.S. Navy + the USAF also not have worked towards an alternate award to Douglas for the F5 Skylancer ?

Douglas was an aircraft prime already well known to both services. Douglas had provided the F4D Skyrays for the Navy. McDonnell was to merge w/ Douglas in 1967, and both would have been getting “ a slice of the pie “ in that sense; anyway.

Moreover… many early jet age fighters had lack luster performance; and jets like the Vought F6U Pirate and F7U Cutlass plus McDonnell’s F3H Demon hadn’t endeared themselves to the Navy… while Douglas’ “ FORD “ seems to have been better received. Not to mention, Douglas appeared to have great potential production capability, with facilities like the U.S. Air Force Plant #3 in Tulsa; being one example.


With regards,
357Mag
 
357Mag said:
Scott-

Howdy !

Why wouldn’t the same dynamics that worked towards McDonell securing F-4 oders from both the U.S. Navy + the USAF also not have worked towards an alternate award to Douglas for the F5 Skylancer ?

Douglas was an aircraft prime already well known to both services. Douglas had provided the F4D Skyrays for the Navy. McDonnell was to merge w/ Douglas in 1967, and both would have been getting “ a slice of the pie “ in that sense; anyway.

Moreover… many early jet age fighters had lack luster performance; and jets like the Vought F6U Pirate and F7U Cutlass plus McDonnell’s F3H Demon hadn’t endeared themselves to the Navy… while Douglas’ “ FORD “ seems to have been better received. Not to mention, Douglas appeared to have great potential production capability, with facilities like the U.S. Air Force Plant #3 in Tulsa; being one example.


With regards,
357Mag
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I agree that it'd make sense for the USAF to pick up something like the F4D or F5D at first glance.

It'd need a completely new fire control system and new missiles to stick with the existing USAF Falcon family. Or accepting the Sidewinder/Sparrow set that comes with the F-4D/E.

And I really cannot overstate just how much the USAF hates the USN.
 
The Bell D-188A was a great lost opportunity for both the USAF and the USN.
 
Scott Kenny said:
I'm not sure the 1121 would be a good stand-in. If you were really lucky that airframe might be able to fit F-4 level of systems. But I suspect that the 1121 is really the RAF F-105. A tactical bomber wearing a Fighter designation.
Click to expand...
I like your analogy Scott Kenny!

Regards
Pioneer
 
Excellent read.

In 1965 the Sparrow missile and powerful radar combination resulted in aircraft that are heavy with low agility.

My air superiority solution would be a two aircraft solution. The F-5 freedom fighter would be the dogfighter with added in-flight refueling capability. The F-111B with AWG-9 would provide situational awareness from higher altitude.

The F-5 pilots would be directed by the F-111B to an advantageous position to jump the migs. The kill ratio will be extremely high when starting from a superior position. They F-5 pilots will rotate through the refueling tanker to provide long endurance.

The F-111B would be instructed to never enter the dogfight. They would be positioned to protect the tankers. BVR missiles and friendly fire would be an issue. They would get easy kills from behind when the migs try to run. The AWG-9 radar on the F-111B would provide better situational awareness than the Lockheed EC-121 Warning Star due to the AWG-9 being positioned much closer to the battle.
 

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