Re-arming the Bundeswehr: Which Projects?

It will be hard for Germany to find a sensible role in the post Trump NATO.
UK and France have their nuclear deterrents and continuing global commitments. The Baltic and Mediterranean members have clear challenges in their regions.
No longer a frontline state and with an understandable aversion to deploying military force outside its own borders Germany cannot recreate its impressive frontline force of the late 1980s.
In some ways like the US and UK in the past Germany needs to use its continuing economic and industrial muscle to help its neighbours in Poland and elsewhere re-arm.
Nuclear weapons must also come on the table given Putin's apparent willingness to threaten their use. While Germany cannot and should not have them on its own soil it should discuss with Sweden and Finland the possibility of Pershing 2/Hades type weapons hidden in their forests to counter the Iskanders in Kaliningrad and Belarus.
 
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uk 75 said:
While Germany cannot and should not have them on its own soil it should discuss with Sweden and Finland the possibility of Pershing 2/Hades type weapons hidden in their forests to counter the Iskanders in Kaliningrad and Belarus.
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Why?
 
uk 75 said:
It will be hard for Germany to find a sensible role in the post Trump NATO.
UK and France have their nuclear deterrents and continuing global commitments. The Baltic and Mediterranean members have clear challenges in their regions.
No longer a frontline state and with an understandable aversion to deploying military force outside its own borders Germany cannot recreate its impressive frontline force of the late 1980s.
In some ways like the US and UK in the past Germany needs to use its continuing economic and industrial muscle to help its neighbours in Poland and elsewhere re-arm.
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While also re arming themself yet it will be hard. The economy isn't going great and the political parties are not really inline with it. Many try to take the rush of support but there actions to follow it are rather dull however the current goverment has achieved more in less than 4 years compared to what merkel did in her 16 years.
uk 75 said:
Nuclear weapons must also come on the table given Putin's apparent willingness to threaten their use.
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Thats are very hard thing to do for any eu country outside the existing users. The NPT ain't for nothing but one can leave with reason (well or not).
uk 75 said:
While Germany cannot and should not have them on its own soil it should discuss with Sweden and Finland the possibility of Pershing 2/Hades type weapons hidden in their forests to counter the Iskanders in Kaliningrad and Belarus.
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Ignoring the political problems (NPT and 2 +4 for example) why should germany not have them?
 
There is an interesting juxtaposition between posts #216 and #217. As the linked article, Germany's likely next government seeks higher defense spending makes clear, working around the Schuldenbremse will be a formidable challenge.

A simple way to make funds available for the Heer - in the short-term - would be to cancel those US-built P-8A Poseidons. At at stroke, €1.64 billion are freed up while cancelling US-made F-35s provides another €10B for arms produced in Germany.

(The latter is not as far-fetched as it seems - Carleton's Stephen Saideman has already broached the subject of cancelling Canada's F-35 order in response to economic damage done by Trump's protectionist tariffs.)
 
I've heard rumours about potential supply of parts could be interfered with by POTUS orders.

A lot of political shenanigans going on at the moment.
 
had said:
The German F-35s are heavily linked to its nuclear deterrence. Nobody in his right mind would gamble with that in this situation. But reducing the ordered 35 units to 24...maybe.
After having an European 5-6th Gen. fighter alternative and an European nuclear deterrence, you can start to get rid of the F-35s - not before.
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Except that Merz - the key decision-maker in the next German coalition - wants 'independence' from the US whom he now regards as an unreliable ally. That being the case, why would he trust Americans who hold the keys to the NATO Nuclear Weapons Sharing Program? In other words, it is little more than a policy crap-shoot in either direction.

There is a reason why France is suddenly musing on the idea of forward-basing nuclear armed Rafales in Germany. Besides, an example of unreliability has just been neatly provided with the crippling of Ukraine's HIMARS capabilities by a US 'pause' in intelligence-sharing. Berlin will have noticed.
 
Grey Havoc said:
www.bbc.com

Germany decides to leave history in the past and prepare for war

Russian aggression and US isolationism push a once hesitant Germany to invest heavily in defence.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com
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If Audi and other automobile companies are having a hard time selling their cars I doubt there's a possibility of a serious re-armament. Frankly it is not also desirable, to anyone that borders them, for Germany to "reawaken"/"re-arm" in any capacity. Hopefully the "red-tape" they put everywhere and their bureaucracy would do the job.
 
I think constant references to events from the first half of the last century do not provide any realistic utility to present circumstances.

We arrived at the moment a senior Polish figure asked publicly "where is the German Army" after the events of 2014. Consider that an achievement of Putin, because the Poles do not forget or forgive.

To the North the Swedes have emerged from a centuries long slumber and be readying for war. Even to the point of openly debating leaving NPT, CTBT and building nuclear weapons.
Cheered on by Norway and Finland!!!

Hard to imagine how far away from the 1930's we now seem to be.
 
en.defence-ua.com

Germans Draw Surprising Conclusions From Ukraine's Experiences Using Patriot, Leopard, and PzH 2000 | Defense Express

Modern warfare requires high technology, mass production, and simplicity, so the German military will try and strike a balance
en.defence-ua.com en.defence-ua.com
In contrast, the Gepard air defense system is highlighted as a reliable and cost-effective platform. Similarly, the Marder infantry fighting vehicle is characterized as simple and widely appreciated.

However, the overarching conclusion is that "hardly any large German equipment is fully suitable for war," with the primary issue being the feasibility of repairs in the field.

However, the overarching conclusion is that "hardly any large German equipment is fully suitable for war," with the primary issue being the feasibility of repairs in the field.

Noteworthy, in their assessment, the German military tried to extrapolate Ukrainian experiences of dealing with field repair problems to their own realities, particularly by reviewing the placement of rear maintenance hubs.

Also, while this speech does not comprehensively represent Bundeswehr's reevaluation of domestic combat systems based on their performance in the Ukraine-russia war, it still illustrates an interesting shift in priorities — from firepower to sustainability.

"We need both: mass and high-tech," said retired Bundeswehr General Hans-Lothar Domröse, an expert asked by the German media outlet.
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Grey Havoc said:
en.defence-ua.com

Germans Draw Surprising Conclusions From Ukraine's Experiences Using Patriot, Leopard, and PzH 2000 | Defense Express

Modern warfare requires high technology, mass production, and simplicity, so the German military will try and strike a balance
en.defence-ua.com en.defence-ua.com
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I believe this article is just taking the wrong conclusion.
- Patriot: its an old system so what do they expect. Actualy 'its Not a high tech system' so it should be perfect
- Leopard 1s problems where allways known and its not like most other Tanks are any better in that sense
- Leopard 2's problem seem more on the logistical side like how there repair vehicles aren't designed to handle those vehicles
- Iris-Ts munition problem is just a normal problem when the system is new and need a massively increased production in a short time.
 
10:44AM

Germany overtakes Britain to become Europe’s biggest defence spender​


James Crisp Europe Editor



Germany has overtaken Britain to become Europe’s biggest spender on defence and in real terms and the fourth largest in the world after the US, China and Russia.
Defence spending increased by 28 per cent last year, outpacing all European countries for the first time since the end of the Cold War, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute said.
The think tank’s annual report said German military spending hit about £66.2bn. The UK spent £61.2bn. Ukraine and France both spent about £48.4bn.
The boom in defence spending was driven by a €100 billion special fund to revitalise Germany’s long-neglected army after Russia’s illegal invasion of Ukraine.
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www.telegraph.co.uk

Ukraine-Russia war live: Kremlin ‘waiting for Kyiv’ on direct talks

Russia said it was waiting for a signal from Ukraine to start direct negotiations to end the war.
www.telegraph.co.uk www.telegraph.co.uk
 
TheRejectionist said:
If Audi and other automobile companies are having a hard time selling their cars I doubt there's a possibility of a serious re-armament. Frankly it is not also desirable, to anyone that borders them, for Germany to "reawaken"/"re-arm" in any capacity. Hopefully the "red-tape" they put everywhere and their bureaucracy would do the job.
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The German army would be rebuilt without any hesitation if the will was there. But the will isn't there in the population. Any kind of large scale rearment is hard to sell to the German population when there are far more important issues at hand that actively affect the German people, like mass immigration and the slowing economy (I know, I know, no politics but in this context there's no way around it). Hundreds of Leopards, Eurofighter or submarines don't fix these issues, thus they're not considered worthwhile investments by the public at large.

Not even the Russo-Ukrainian War could change that overarching sentiment long term. And with countries like Poland beefing up on paper, the idea of an increase in military spending and capability gets called into question even more heavily. As a very unlikely Russian assault would have to go through Poland first. So in essence there is no imminent external threat to the German nation. You can sell the public stuff like frigates or MPAs, as they are meant to protect shipping in the Baltic, Mediterranean and other areas. But large amounts of artillery, tanks, jets? That's a much harder sell tbh. Even the F-35, while sensible, was and still is rather controversial for various reasons, although the government remains steadfast in supporting that decision.

But in short, the only people who decide if, when and how much Germany rearms are not external actors but solely the population who ensures that politicians remain employed.
 
zen said:
I think constant references to events from the first half of the last century do not provide any realistic utility to present circumstances.

We arrived at the moment a senior Polish figure asked publicly "where is the German Army" after the events of 2014. Consider that an achievement of Putin, because the Poles do not forget or forgive.

To the North the Swedes have emerged from a centuries long slumber and be readying for war. Even to the point of openly debating leaving NPT, CTBT and building nuclear weapons.
Cheered on by Norway and Finland!!!

Hard to imagine how far away from the 1930's we now seem to be.
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Oh, it's absolutely amazing how far Germany's neighbors have recovered from the events of WW2.

But Germany itself hasn't. Especially culturally. My study abroad had a couple of German students. They went to the Japanese Imperial New Year's event. Said they felt very wrong waving national flags and feeling pride in a country.
 
Scott Kenny said:
Oh, it's absolutely amazing how far Germany's neighbors have recovered from the events of WW2.

But Germany itself hasn't. Especially culturally. My study abroad had a couple of German students. They went to the Japanese Imperial New Year's event. Said they felt very wrong waving national flags and feeling pride in a country.
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Being Gen Z myself I'd argue that's about to change. As far as I can tell from my time in school and university younger Germans tend to be more patriotic or at least not averse to the concept of strong patriotism. But the fruits of that change in attitude won't be ripe until one or two decades into the future.
 
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EmoBirb said:
Being Gen Z myself I'd argue that's about to change. As far as I can tell from my time in school and university younger Germans tend to be more patriotic or at least not averse to the concept of strong patriotism. But the fruits of that change in attitude won't be ripe until one or two decades into the future.
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I very much hope you're a little pessimistic about how long the cultural change will take. But I suspect that it'll take until Gen Zs really take major leadership in political parties, etc.
 
Scott Kenny said:
But I suspect that it'll take until Gen Zs really take major leadership in political parties, etc.
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That's what I was alluding to. When my generation takes up leadership roles in government, military and the private economic sector is when you'll see a change in tone.

Although I find the very first one questionable, but that would just be me drifting off into political rambling and theory crafting, which isn't something for this forum.
 
EmoBirb said:
Although I find the very first one questionable, but that would just be me drifting off into political rambling and theory crafting, which isn't something for this forum.
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The classic problem of democracies: anyone who is actively seeking political power is demonstrating their unfitness to wield political power. The kind of personality you actually want is the person who says, "I do not want political power, but if I have no choice but to do this job, I'm going to do it right."

And that's where I'm going to close the conversation.
 
Problem as see at the same time with the rise of patriotism is also things like increased hatred against jews again for example (for multiple reasons with people from all ethnical roots). That said going back to the rearmament of the Bundeswehr here some things.
1. Some articles about the increase of air defense (and the intent for it) and also future goals like Arrow 4. https://suv.report/luftwaffe-plant-ausbau-der-bodengebundenen-luftverteidigung/
2. Some stuff about MuSE the replacement of the Elbe class tender. https://suv.report/muse-fluch-oder-segen/
3. Skyranger will come with SADM not Stinger anymore https://www.hartpunkt.de/zweitbewaf...rd-mit-small-anti-drone-missile-ausgeruestet/
 

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