Mavrick5

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Hi Guys

I came across information on the internet that the Japanese used:

Messerschmitt Bf.109G

Dornier Do. 215

Focke-Wulf Ta.154

Savoia-Marchetti SM.79

Reggiane Re.2000

Japanese homegrown Mistel project similar to the Germans (N1K fighter on a modified J5M bomb)

Could this be a case of a figment of someone’s imagination, or was this a fact?

I like to hear your thoughts on this.

Cheers
 
The Japanese Army brought, and used over China, the FIAT BR-20 Cicogna.

I don't know anything about Japanese SM-79 or Re 2000, my opinion is a fake.
 
... J5M looks like an Imperial Japanese Navy designation, but is unfamiliar to me...

'J5M' has been mooted as a designation for a potential naval variant of the Mitsubishi Ki-83 to replace the unsuccessful Nakajima J5N1 Tenrai. AFAIK, there is no evidence to back up that speculation.
 
The first three links are presented in a context of what-iffery - turreted Spitfires, H-P Halifax with Dutch roundels.
Another one - Bf-109G-6 early, Imperial Japanese Air Force. Not real, obviously, although the Japanese did receive a small number of Bf-109E-7's and a single Fw-190A-5 for evaluation (along with a Me-210, and others).
The two deviantart-links, as a bit of a giveaway, claim in-service years of 1943-1947.
 
In 1938, 85 late BR.20 aircraft were exported to the Japan Army and used in the Second Sino-Japanese War under the name of Type I heavy bombers. The role of this aircraft was to bridge the line to the Type 97 heavy bomber, and by the time the Type 97 heavy bomber was deployed to the front line, it had run out of Italian bombs and parts, so it disappeared from the first line. However, the Breda SAFAT12.7mm machine gun was of great help to the development of the Army's aircraft cannon (Ho-103).

 

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The Italian bombers were the BR-20M version, the very same used by Regia Aeronautica at that times.
The FIAT were used mainly against Russian forces during the Second Russian-Japanese War.
The Japanese order was about 200M of the acutal Euro and was the biggest one accomplished by Italian Industry before the WWII.
 
Hi Guys

I came across information on the internet that the Japanese used:

Messerschmitt Bf.109G

Dornier Do. 215

Focke-Wulf Ta.154

Savoia-Marchetti SM.79

Reggiane Re.2000

Japanese homegrown Mistel project similar to the Germans (N1K fighter on a modified J5M bomb)

Could this be a case of a figment of someone’s imagination, or was this a fact?

I like to hear your thoughts on this.

Cheers
seeems what if
 
Never heard of an SM79 or FW154 in Japanese service. You could add FW190 which was evaluated
 
IIRC Japan was interested in potentially building Ta-152H's to use against the B-29 threat.
 
The first flight of a single-engine S.62 propulsion flying boat (Isota Fraskiny Asso 500-RI water-cooled V-12 with 520 hp) was made in 1926, but it was not used as a fighter flying boat in Italy, but Russia purchased 22 of them.
In addition, 29 imitations were built in Russia as MBR-4s, which were in active service until 1936.

In Japan, the former Imperial Navy imported one aircraft from the Italian Savoia Marchetti Company in 1932 (Showa 7) and tried it as a long-range flying boat (2 crew members + 2 passengers: cruising range 1500km).
It was an all-wooden monocoque hull, but the bottom had a slightly more concave cross-section than horizontal, but it was finished with a smooth smooth surface.
After the Navy's trial evaluation, it was sent to the Japan Air Transport Research Institute in 1936 (Showa 11), and was used for fish search, salvage, and aerial work by taking advantage of its cruising performance for 11 hours in the air.
In commemoration of the 15th anniversary of the establishment of the Japan Air Transport Research Institute, it was refurbished for use in goodwill flights between Osaka ~ Thailand, but this flight was not carried out.

 

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The first flight of a single-engine S.62 propulsion flying boat (Isota Fraskiny Asso 500-RI water-cooled V-12 with 520 hp) was made in 1926, but it was not used as a fighter flying boat in Italy, but Russia purchased 22 of them.
In addition, 29 imitations were built in Russia as MBR-4s, which were in active service until 1936.

In Japan, the former Imperial Navy imported one aircraft from the Italian Savoia Marchetti Company in 1932 (Showa 7) and tried it as a long-range flying boat (2 crew members + 2 passengers: cruising range 1500km).
It was an all-wooden monocoque hull, but the bottom had a slightly more concave cross-section than horizontal, but it was finished with a smooth smooth surface.
After the Navy's trial evaluation, it was sent to the Japan Air Transport Research Institute in 1936 (Showa 11), and was used for fish search, salvage, and aerial work by taking advantage of its cruising performance for 11 hours in the air.
In commemoration of the 15th anniversary of the establishment of the Japan Air Transport Research Institute, it was refurbished for use in goodwill flights between Osaka ~ Thailand, but this flight was not carried out.

Domo airgato, blackkite san.....
 

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Hi,

The only 109s in Japan were five Bf 109E-7 received and evaluated in 1941.
A single Fw 190A-5 was also received.

In this j-aircraft.com thread ...


... Hans Mcilveen posted the following:

According to the attached document from the files of German export company Fokkes & Koch, two Messerschmitt Me 109G-4 aircraft were supplied to the Japanese in early 1943. The document is a credit note detailing the Fokkes & Koch commission on the sale of the two aircraft to Japan. One would think that this would only be prepared if delivery actually succeeded. It also gives the serial number of the two aircraft as 16309 and 16310.

I agree that it is not 100% proof but still, I don't think this credit note would have been issued if actual delivery to Japan did not take place. Also note the address in Japan. Delivery of one or more Me 210s was scheduled around the same time and we know from photographic evidence that that was successful.

At least five blockade runners - Weserland, Rio Grande, Pietro Orseolo, Burgenland, and Irene - reached Japanese ports in December 1942 and January 1943.

I believe the 'a' suffix in Me 109Ga stands for Ausland or foreign.

Attached is the second page of the document but it is hard to read.

Did anyone ever hear of this an perhaps could offer an opinion on whether it's actual historical material (and a delviery actually took place)?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 

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According to an article published in Aviation Fan (magazine), Army Major Yasuhiko Kuroe, who was a member (test pilot) of the Flight Experiment Department of the Army Aviation Review Department at the time, was involved in testing the Fw 190 A-5 imported by the Japan Army at Tama Army Air Field (Fussa Air Base, now Yokota Air Base). According to the opinion, the Fw 190's turning performance was not great, but it was fast and stable, and its start (acceleration) and plunge (initial acceleration on descent) were unmatched. When he actually conducted a simulated air battle with the Type 3 fighter "Hien" and the Type 4 fighter "Hayate", fw190 could not compete these Japanese fighters in the turning battle because of the situation where vibration occurs immediately when trying to make a sharp turn and causes a high-speed stall. Kuroe also noted that the machine was easy to service and there were almost no oil leaks or breakdowns.

Just before the end of the war (August 1945), a speed competition was held at an altitude of 6,000 m using five aircraft: Fw 190 A-5, Bf 109 E-7, P-51C, P-40 (both captured), and Type 4 "Hayate". Kuroe's Fw 190 and Bf 109 took the lead at the start of the race, but a minute later the P-51 closed in and overtook them three minutes later. Kuroe concluded that the Fw 190 was not suitable for the P-51 in terms of horizontal top speed, but its starting speed was second to none. This speed competition is also mentioned in Oshio & Nohara (2002), again with the Fw 190 leading at first, but being overtaken by the P-51 after 3 minutes.

Incidentally, the final ranking was P-51C in first place, Fw 190 A-5 and Type 4 "Hayate" in the same order, followed by Type 3 "Hiyan" and P-40 in the same order. The Fw 190 A-5 had a maximum speed of 670 km/h according to the catalog specifications, but according to another document by Kuroe, at least this individual had a speed of a little more than 600 km/h, which was inferior to the Type 4 "Hayate" with a maximum speed of 624 km/h. However, since his dashing power was greatly superior, it was difficult to catch up with him in the Type 4 battle "Hayatee". However, with the P-51C, which was capable of 700 km/h, it was impossible to hunt down the Fw 190 A-5, and Kuroe said that he saw the cause of Germany's defeat here.

In October 1943, a test flight was carried out by Lieutenant Colonel Yoshitsugu Aramaki and Major Susumu Jimbo, members of the Flight Experiment Department of the Army Aviation Examination Department. It is said that the Fw 190 was a lighter fighter than the hydraulic Japan aircraft with electric control, and the dive speed was inferior to the Bf 109 and the Type 3 fighter "Hien" due to its shape characteristics, but it was possible to get a glimpse of German industrial standards. In another document, Lieutenant Colonel Aramaki mentioned the straightness during takeoff and the good climbing and acceleration power, and said that the flight performance was similar to that of the Type 4 "Hayate" and the Type 5, and that it was somewhere in between, and evaluated the reliability of the electric drive unit.

Of the foreign aircraft tested, Lieutenant Colonel Aramaki rated three of the foreign aircraft tested, the Bf 109 E-7, the Fw 190 A-5, and the P-51C, as the best, of which the Fw 190 was the best. In his post-war memoirs, Lieutenant Colonel Aramaki praised the good visibility (mentioned above), praised the climbing power and maneuverability, and said that it would be superior to the Type 4 "Hayate" in hand-to-hand combat. Brigadier Toshiro Takezawa also praised the electric power of the mechanisms, stating that both the Fw 190 and the Type 3 "Hien" were superior to the Bf 109, but that the Fw 190 was better because of the reliability of the engine, but the P-51 was faster and even better. The engine armament and aerodynamic treatment scheme of the Fw 190 A-5 were later used as a reference during the development of the Type 5 fighter .

 
The engine armament and aerodynamic treatment scheme of the Fw 190 A-5 were later used as a reference during the development of the Type 5 fighter .
Very informative, thank you. I am assuming the "Type 5 Fighter" is in reference to the Ki-100 since it's known that fighter used aerodynamic inspiration to fit the Kinsei on a thin airframe. (?)
 
Is there any info on what the Japanese thought of the 210?
 
As an after thought, did they capture any Russian aircraft?
 
Hi,



In this j-aircraft.com thread ...


... Hans Mcilveen posted the following:





Did anyone ever hear of this an perhaps could offer an opinion on whether it's actual historical material (and a delviery actually took place)?

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
I'm not a German speaker, but it is headed up as a "credit note". In accounting terms it would be issued to cancel a previously raised invoice for goods or services or to reduce the value of that previously raised invoice e.g. for discounts, refunds etc. Back in the good old days credit notes were issued on documents printed in red so that fits.

Maybe the contents give more of a clue.

It suggests that the issuers were, for some reason, not entitled to some or all of what was previously invoiced. Non-delivery could be a reason.
 
Hi Ewen,

I'm not a German speaker, but it is headed up as a "credit note". In accounting terms it would be issued to cancel a previously raised invoice for goods or services or to reduce the value of that previously raised invoice e.g. for discounts, refunds etc. Back in the good old days credit notes were issued on documents printed in red so that fits.

Thanks, that's interesting background. The document actually deals with the payment of a commission by Messerschmitt to Fokkes & Koch.

I guess this is the key sentence:

"Da wir für unsere Rechnung Nr. 60 00136 abzüglich Gutschrift Nr. 61 100007 von der Japanesischen Armee keine Zahlung erhielten, sondern der Ausgleich unserer Forderung durch Abbuchung des entsprechenden Betrages von der bei Abschluß des Vertrages über die 1[? - 6 or 8, possibly] Flugzeuge Me 109 erhaltenen Anzahlung erfolgte, bitten wir von der Ihnen auf Grund unserer seinerzeit ausgestellten Gutschrift über Ihre Provision für die erhaltene Anzahlung ausbezahlten Summe den Betrag unserer heutigen Gutschrift, und zwar:
zu verwenden."

Roughly: The invoice for the delivery of 2 Me 109 Ga, W-Nr. 16309 and 16310, was not directly paid by the Japanese Army. If I understand it correctly, the Japanese Army had allocated a down payment for 16 or 18 (unfortunately, near illegible) Me 109 aircraft, which Messerschmitt upon delivery for these two aircraft could draw upon.

(Apparently, the Japanese had ordered the aircraft with two Rüstsätze 3, which I figure consisted of an underbelly rack for a drop tank, along with the fittings. These were not delivered, thus their worth was deducted for the calculation of the commission.)

It seems Fokkes & Koch often received advance payments, and the documents adjusts the height of the advance payment to reflect the current situation.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)
 
As an after thought, did they capture any Russian aircraft?
I recall seeing, a long time ago, a picture of a LaGG-3 in Japanese markings being evaluated. IIRC, that was in 1942(pilot defected with his aircraft).
 
Is there any info on what the Japanese thought of the 210?
In January 1943, the Imperial Army purchased a Me 210A-1 fighter-bomber carrying one ton of bombs. The plane was assembled at Kawasaki Aircraft's Akashi plant and examined by the Imperial Army, but during testing it damaged the leg struts and engine support structure. After the test, it became a research equipment for Kawasaki Aircraft. An ingenious mechanism was seen in the armament scheme, but practicality was not appreciated so highly.
 
Hi!


Breda Ba.33 J-BANC​

On April 23, 1932, at Haneda airfield, there was a ceremony held by Osaka Mainichi Shimbun to present the two latest additions to the newspaper fleet; a Breda 33 and a Lockheed Altair. On that day pilot Okura flew with the Breda 33 for the first time with Minister of Communication Mitsuchi Chuzo as passenger.
The Breda 33 became the 23rd plane in the newspaper’s fleet and received the registration J-BANC. It was destroyed in Hiroshima’s Army training field (date unknown).
Note that in this in-flight photo the aircraft doesn't carry any hinomaru on the wings. These were added at some later date.

 

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「Long-distance feats included flights from Rome to Mogadishu and Vercelli to Tokyo (both by Francis Lombardi and Gino Capannini)」

The Fiat AS-1 light aircraft (I-AAVE) departed Turin on July 14, 1930, passed through Siberia, and arrived at Tachikawa Airfield on July 23, setting a new record of 12,000 km for long-distance flights by light aircraft. The AS-1 was donated to the Japan Student Aviation Federation and used as a training aircraft, but due to the difficulty of obtaining replacement parts, the service period was short.

Slide show.
 

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The Ju 88 bomber was active from the invasion of Norway at the beginning of the war to the Battle of Britain and the defeat of the war, and more than 15,000 improved versions were produced. Although this aircraft had a bomb load of up to 3 tons, it was also capable of dive bombing at high speed. Focusing on such performance, the Japan Navy imported one Ju 88 in 1940, conducted surveys and accumulated data, and this was the basis for the masterpiece land-based bomber "Ginga".

This aircraft went missing in Tokyo Bay during a thunderstorm when the first test flight in Yokosuka.
 
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View: https://x.com/Rikugun_kokuki/status/949852482255044608/photo/1

Heinkel He 118
Prototype dive bomber of the Germany Air Force.
In 1938, the Japan Army imported one aircraft (He118V3).
It was used for research on dive bombers, and the research materials were used in the development of the Type 98 light bomber.

Also, Aichi Aircraft imported one aircraft (He118V4) in 1938 and used it as an experimental aircraft for the Japan Navy. In July of the same year, the horizontal stabilizer disintegrated in mid-air during a dive flight, and the pilot, Sergeant Major Komatsu, was killed. The research materials of this aircraft were used in the design of the carrier-based bomber Suisei.
 

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In 1933, the Imperial Japanese Navy instructed Aichi Aircraft and Nakajima Aircraft to build prototypes of carrier-based dive bombers. Aichi Aircraft decided to build a prototype carrier-based dive bomber based on Heinkel's HD 50 dive bomber, and ordered one HD50. Heinkel produced the HD 66, an export model developed from the HD50, and exported it to Japan. Under the direction of chief designer Tokuichiro Gomei, Aichi Aircraft replaced the HD66's engine with a 580 hp (427 kW) Nakajima Hisashi No. 2 Kai No. 1 engine and delivered it to the Imperial Japanese Navy. This was the first type of Type 94 carrier-based bomber.

View: https://x.com/WW2aircraftbot/status/814518213027344384/photo/1
 

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In 1938, the Imperial Japanese Navy ordered 30 He 112s, which had been sold by Heinkel as export fighters, with the aim of urgently equipping them with local fighters whose main mission was to defend land bases in mainland China. However, it seems that only 12 aircraft actually arrived in Japan.
As a result of the test, the performance was below expectations, and it was used as a training fighter and teaching material in Japan. One of them was sent to the Second Faculty of Engineering at Tokyo Imperial University.
The name of this fighter in the Japan Imperial Navy was the Heinkel 112 fighter (A7He1), and according to Germany sources, the He 112V12 (DB600Aa) was built at the request of the Japan Imperial Navy, and it was the He 112B-O that actually arrived in Japan.

He112B-0 engine exhaust nozzle design is impressive.

Source ; ENCYCLOPEDIA OF JAPANESE AIRCRAFT VOL.6 INPORT AIRCRAFT CONTENTS

 

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1. Propeller spinner
2. Two-blade variable pitch VDM propeller
3. Radiator Tank
4. Jumo-210Ea engine
5. Auxiliary air intake
6. Removable hood panel
7. Motor mount
8. Machine Gun Ports
9. air intake protector
10. Exhaust manifold
11. Lower removable hood panel
12. Right wheel niche flaps
13. Right Wheel
14. Radiator in the lower position
15. Semi-retractable radiator
16. Radiator release mechanism
17. Auxiliary wing spar attachment unit
18. Motor mount
19. Engine exhaust
20. Left machine gun
21. Supercharger
22. Blower air intake
23. MG FF Right Cannon
24. Wing skin
25. Right navigation light
26. External hinge of the right aileron
27. Right aileron
28. Aileron trimmer
29. Aileron rod wiring
30. Right flap
31. Cannon Service Panel
32. Fireproof partition
33. Oil tank
34. Left Minigun Access Panel
35. Ammunition Hose
36. Left 7.9 mm MG 17 machine gun
37. Fuselage strut
38. Machine Gun Magazine
39. Spar passing through the fuselage
40. Rib
41. Joystick
42. Cabin ventilation
43. Sight
44. Windshield
45. Sliding rear cab canopy
46. Pilot Headrest
 

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