Register here

Author Topic: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations  (Read 7079 times)

Offline Apophenia

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2041
C.M.A.S.A. - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA  Designations

Rinaldo Piaggio began SCMP (sometimes 'SDCMP' for Societa di Costruzioni Meccaniche di Pisa) in 1922 to license Dornier designs. In 1929, SCMP joined the Fiat Group and, in 930, the name was changed to Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA aka CMASA di Marina or simply 'Marina Fiat'.

The first designations are listed as MF for 'Marina Fiat'. The CMASA-built Do J Wal is listed at the MF.5 but the earliest numbers are missing. I am posulating that these umbers were used internally to designate licenced Dornier designs. But which ones?

Other than the Do J Wal, the Dornier designs built at Marina di Pisa are said to include the H Falke (1 x conv to Seefalke), Do E, Delphin, and Do O 'Expeditionary Wal' (online sources also list CMASA-built Do Fs but that seem improbable). So, although it is a stretch, we have four Dornier types built at Marina di Pisa and four missing MF designations.

If anyone has access to Sviluppo e attivita della C.M.A.S.A by ing. Guido Guidi, this may solve the missing designations mystery.

The MF series of designations was replaced by a new CMASA system more in the Italian style listing role and designer's name. Designs originating with the parent Fiat firm but produced at Marina di Pisa did not receive new CMASA designations.

_____________________________________________________________


Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designation Prefixes

MF = Marina Fiat
RS = Ricognitore (Reconnaissance) Stiavelli
AS = Assalto (Assault) Stiavelli
CS = Corsa (Racer) Stiavelli for the CS.15
CS = Caccia (Fighter) Stiavelli for the CS.38
SN = [??]
BS = Bombardamento [?] Stiavelli
JS = [??] Stiavelli (probably actually 'IS' for Idro Stiavelli
G == Giuseppe Gabrielli, Fiat designer

__________________________________________________________
« Last Edit: October 14, 2016, 05:20:45 pm by Apophenia »

Offline Apophenia

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2041
Re: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2013, 04:32:48 pm »
CMASA Marina Fiat Designs (Guido Guidi & Manlio Stiavelli)

CMASA MF.1 - MF.3 - [??]
 -- Poss. licenced Dornier types [??]

CMASA MF.4 -- 2-/3-crew single-engined parasol recce flying boat
 - MF.4: Prototype (MM.156), 1 x tractor 600hp Piaggio Stella IX.R
 - MF.4: Series, 1 x tractor 600hp Piaggio Stella IX.R, x 6
 - MF.4bis: Mod. 2nd prototype (MM.161)

CMASA MF.5 -- 1931 10 pax flying boat transport, 23.30 m span
 - MF.5: 1 x 750 hp Fiat A.24R V-12 mounted above parasol wing
 -- MF.5 designed by Guido Guidi, 2 x prototypes (MM.270, MM.271)
 -- aka Marina Fiat MF-5, Fiat MF-5, or simply Dornier Do J Wal

CMASA Marina Fiat Designs (Manlio Stiavelli)

CMASA MF.6 -- 1934 2-seat shipboard catapult recce floatplane, x 2
 - MF.6: Biplane, single float, 1 x Piaggio Jupiter VI, 5.11m span
 - MF.6bis: MM.183/MM.184 as flown (due to changes under constr.)
 - MF.6ter: [??]

CMASA MF.7 - MF.9 - [??]

CMASA MF.10 - 1934 2-seat biplane recce flying boat, 11.70 m span
 - MF.10: 1st prototype (MM.238), pusher 600 hp Fiat A.30RA V-12
 - MF.10bis: Rebuilt and improved 2nd prototype (MM.288)*
 -- * Some sources list MM.238 as upgraded to MF.10bis as well

CMASA MF.11 - [??]

CMASA Manlio Stiavelli Designs (some with Lucio Lazzarino)

CMASA JS.12 - [Project] flying boat? Stiavelli/Lazzarino design

CMASA BS.12 - [Project] four-engined seaplane [repeat desig.?]
 - BS.12: Possibly a bomber vers. of the JS.12 [??]

CMASA ??.13 - [??]

CMASA AS.14 - 1943 ground attack vers. of RS.14, x 1
 -- aka Fiat AS.14 (or A.S.14) and Fiat CMASA AS.14

CMASA RS.14 - 1939 torpedo bomber floatplane, 19.54 m span
 -- aka Fiat RS.14 (or R.S.14) and Fiat CMASA RS.14
 - RS.14A: 2 x Fiat A.74 RC.38, unarmed prototypes, x 2
 - RS.14B: Prod. recce/torpedo bomber variant, x 184
 - RS.14C: Recce/ASW conv. of RS.14B, ventral bay removed
 - AS.14 : Wheeled u/c, 47 mm nose gun, 1 x prototype

CMASA CS.15 - [Project] speed record a/c, 10.5m span, unbuilt*
 - CS.15: 1 x 2,250 hp Fiat AS.8 V-16 driving contra props
 -- Airframe was almost complete in June 1940, cancelled 1943
 -- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3618.msg28673.html#msg28673

CMASA SN.16 - [Project] Aug 1939 shipboard observation seaplane
 - SN.16: aka Fiat SN.16

CMASA ??.17-??.37 - [??]

CMASA CS-38 - [Project] fighter with Fiat A.38 inverted V-12
 -- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3618.msg28643.html#msg28643

CMASA ??.39-??.53 - [??]

CMASA JS.54 - [Project] 1937 civil transatlantic flying boat
 - JS.54: 6-engined flying boat, wind tunnel model only
 -- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9690.msg89101.html#msg89101

________________________________
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 12:09:00 pm by Apophenia »

Offline Apophenia

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2041
Re: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2013, 04:34:02 pm »
CMASA Giuseppe Gabrielli Designs

CMASA G.5 - 1933 low-wing aerobatic monoplane, 10.52 m span
 - G.5/1: Prototypes (MM.212/MM.213), 1 x 140 hp Fiat A.54 7-cyl
 - G.5/2: [Project] 2nd prototype orig. 1 x 142 hp Fiat A.60*
 -- * Sources differ as to whether G.5/2 built with A.60 6-cyl
 - G.5: Prod. type, , 1 x 135 hp Fiat A.70 7-cylinder radial
 - G.5bis: Prod. vers., 1 x 205 hp Fiat A.70 7-cyl radial*
 -- * G.5bis built new + 34 conversions from existing G.5s
 -- aka Fiat G.5/G.5bis and Fiat CMASA G.5/G.5bis

Fiat CMASA G.8 - 1938 2-seat biplane basic trainer, 8.76 m span
 - G.8: 1 x 140 hp Fiat A.54 7-cyl radial, 61 built for RAI
 -- aka Fiat G.8 and Fiat CMASA G.8

NB: Only exclusively CMASA-produced Gabrielli designs are listed here. Other Gabrielli  designs produced at Marina di Pisa include the one-off ICR.42 (CR.42 fighter on CMASA devised twin floats) and series prduction of G.50bis and G.55 fighters.
____________________________________________________

Undesignated Aldo Guglielmetti Design Built by CMASA

CMASA BGA - 1936 twin-engined monoplane medium bomber, 21.46m span
 - BGA: Bombardamento Genio Aeronautico, 2 x Fiat A.80 RC.41, x 1
 -- Single, unsuccessful prototype (MM.295)

____________________________________________________

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22025
Re: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations
« Reply #3 on: April 01, 2013, 04:55:31 am »
We always see a perfect work from you my dear Apophenia,


thank you,and for BS.12 and JS.12,I think they are the same design.

Offline Apophenia

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2041
Re: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2013, 03:49:38 pm »
... for BS.12 and JS.12,I think they are the same design.

Thanks Hesham, that was my sense too. But was one a derivative of the other. Or is BS a typographical error for JS?  :o

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22025
Re: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2013, 04:46:22 pm »
May be my dear Apophenia,


but I found it in an Italian site as I mention before,I will try to find it again.

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22025

Offline Apophenia

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 2041
Re: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2016, 05:23:41 pm »
Thanks Hesham. Something rather obvious occurred to me reading that. Italian journals of that period often used a fancy, 'J'-like display character for capital 'I'. That mysterious 'JS.12' is more likely to be the IS-12 (for Idro Stiavelli).
« Last Edit: October 15, 2016, 12:09:43 pm by Apophenia »

Offline zeroc

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 84
Re: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2018, 04:03:12 am »
Hello, my idea of how the SN16 should have been.
Cheers,
Marco

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22025
Re: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2018, 08:32:08 am »
WOW,nice work my dear Zeroc.

Offline zeroc

  • CLEARANCE: Confidential
  • *
  • Posts: 84
Re: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2018, 01:04:04 pm »
WOW,nice work my dear Zeroc.

Thank you!

Offline Boogey

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 200
  • B'Boomelang
Re: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2018, 07:46:04 am »

Undesignated Aldo Guglielmetti Design Built by CMASA

CMASA BGA - 1936 twin-engined monoplane medium bomber, 21.46m span
 - BGA: Bombardamento Genio Aeronautico, 2 x Fiat A.80 RC.41, x 1
 -- Single, unsuccessful prototype (MM.295)

I do not speak Italian so I only want to notice another explanation of the abbreviation B.G.A. :

" In 1937, FIAT C.M.A.S.A. built the prototype of a twin engined bomber landplane  called B.G.A (Fig. 3). Its name stands for Bombardiere Genio Aeronautico (Air Force Engineering Corps bomber) since General Aldo Guglielmetti was one of its designers. This monoplane was based on the same specifications that gave origin to the FIAT BR20 Cicogna, which won the contest, although  it was somewhat structurally heavier than the B.G.A. ".

That could not surely be right of course, and comes from the site https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273455013_Forgotten_aircraft_the_aeroplanes_of_CMASA   

« Last Edit: April 01, 2018, 07:58:54 am by Boogey »
Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink.
I needn't argue with that ; I'm right and I will be proved right.
I don't know which will go first, Rock'n'Roll or christianity ?

John Lennon

Offline Nico

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 260
Re: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations
« Reply #12 on: April 01, 2018, 07:58:07 am »
Hi Boogey,
I ever read BGA for Bombardiere Grande Autonomia (long range bomber) and I thought that designation was fair consistent with Italian use.
Nico S.

Offline hesham

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 22025
Re: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations
« Reply #13 on: April 01, 2018, 08:04:19 am »
Nice Info my dears.

Offline Boogey

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 200
  • B'Boomelang
Re: CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2018, 02:41:59 am »
... for BS.12 and JS.12,I think they are the same design.

Thanks Hesham, that was my sense too. But was one a derivative of the other. Or is BS a typographical error for JS?  :o

I think those aircraft projects were two different types as the JS had to be a six engined passenger flying boat, project was abandoned,
and the BS.12 design had to be a four 1000 hp Piaggio engined bomber and reconnaissance flying boat and was rejected as too costly.
Christianity will go. It will vanish and shrink.
I needn't argue with that ; I'm right and I will be proved right.
I don't know which will go first, Rock'n'Roll or christianity ?

John Lennon