CMASA - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations

[Apophenia]

C.M.A.S.A. - Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designations

Rinaldo Piaggio began SCMP (sometimes 'SDCMP' for Societa di Costruzioni Meccaniche di Pisa) in 1922 to license Dornier designs. In 1929, SCMP joined the Fiat Group and, in 930, the name was changed to Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA aka CMASA di Marina or simply 'Marina Fiat'.

The first designations are listed as MF for 'Marina Fiat'. The CMASA-built Do J Wal is listed at the MF.5 but the earliest numbers are missing. I am posulating that these umbers were used internally to designate licenced Dornier designs. But which ones?

Other than the Do J Wal, the Dornier designs built at Marina di Pisa are said to include the H Falke (1 x conv to Seefalke), Do E, Delphin, and Do O 'Expeditionary Wal' (online sources also list CMASA-built Do Fs but that seem improbable). So, although it is a stretch, we have four Dornier types built at Marina di Pisa and four missing MF designations.

If anyone has access to Sviluppo e attivita della C.M.A.S.A by ing. Guido Guidi, this may solve the missing designations mystery.

The MF series of designations was replaced by a new CMASA system more in the Italian style listing role and designer's name. Designs originating with the parent Fiat firm but produced at Marina di Pisa did not receive new CMASA designations.

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Construzioni Mecchaniche Aeronautiche SA Designation Prefixes

MF = Marina Fiat
RS = Ricognitore (Reconnaissance) Stiavelli
AS = Assalto (Assault) Stiavelli
CS = Corsa (Racer) Stiavelli for the CS.15
CS = Caccia (Fighter) Stiavelli for the CS.38
SN = [??]
BS = Bombardamento [?] Stiavelli
JS = [??] Stiavelli (probably actually 'IS' for Idro Stiavelli
G == Giuseppe Gabrielli, Fiat designer

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[Apophenia]

CMASA Marina Fiat Designs (Guido Guidi & Manlio Stiavelli)

CMASA MF.1 - MF.3 - (??) hypothetical designations
-- Poss. licenced Dornier types (??)

CMASA MF.4 -- 2-/3-crew single-engined parasol recce flying boat
- MF.4: Prototype (MM.156), 1 x tractor 600hp Piaggio Stella IX.R
- MF.4: Series, 1 x tractor 600hp Piaggio Stella IX.R radial, x 6
- MF.4bis: Modified second prototype (MM.161)

CMASA MF.5 - 1931 10-pax transport flying boat; Wal deriv.; x 2
- MF.5 : Designed by Guido Guidi, prototypes MM.270 & MM.271
- MF.5: 2 x 750 hp Fiat A.24R push-pull V-12s;* span 23.30 m
-- * Tandem engines mounted above/on top of the parasol wing
-- aka Marina Fiat MF-5, Fiat MF-5, or simply Dornier Do J Wal

CMASA Marina Fiat Designs (Manlio Stiavelli)

CMASA MF.6 -- 1934 2-seat shipboard catapult recce floatplane, x 2
- MF.6: Biplane, single float, 1 x Piaggio Jupiter VI, 5.11m span
- MF.6bis: MM.183/MM.184 as flown (due to changes under constr.)
- MF.6ter: [??]

CMASA MF.7 - MF.9 - (??) hypothetical designations

CMASA MF.10 - 1934 2-seat biplane recce flying boat, 11.70 m span
- MF.10: 1st prototype (MM.238), pusher 600 hp Fiat A.30RA V-12
- MF.10bis: Rebuilt and improved 2nd prototype (MM.288)*
-- * Some sources list MM.238 as upgraded to MF.10bis as well

CMASA MF.11 - (??) hypothetical designation

CMASA Manlio Stiavelli Designs (some with Lucio Lazzarino)
CMASA JS - [Project] 1937 civil transatlantic flying boat
- JS: 6-engined flying boat, wind tunnel model only
-- Mislisted (and left uncorrected) as "JS.54"; likely plain 'JS'
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9690.msg89101.html#msg89101

CMASA BS.12 - [Project] four-engined seaplane [repeat desig.?]
- BS.12: Possibly a bomber vers. of the JS.12 [??]

CMASA (??).13 - (??) hypothetical designation

CMASA AS.14 - 1943 ground attack vers. of RS.14, x 1
-- aka Fiat AS.14 (or A.S.14) and Fiat CMASA AS.14

CMASA RS.14 - 1939 torpedo bomber floatplane, 19.54 m span
-- aka Fiat RS.14 (or R.S.14) and Fiat CMASA RS.14
- RS.14A: 2 x Fiat A.74 RC.38, unarmed prototypes, x 2
- RS.14B: Prod. recce/torpedo bomber variant, x 184
- RS.14C: Recce/ASW conv. of RS.14B, ventral bay removed
- AS.14 : Wheeled u/c, 47 mm nose gun, 1 x prototype

CMASA CS.15 - (Project) speed record a/c, 10.5m span, unbuilt*
- CS.15: 1 x 2,250 hp Fiat AS.8 V-16 driving contra props
-- Airframe was almost complete in June 1940, cancelled 1943
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3618.msg28673.html#msg28673

CMASA SN.16 - (Project) Aug 1939 shipboard observation seaplane
- SN.16 : To 01 May 1938 requirement for Littorio class battleships
- SN.16 : Single-engined biplane obs/recce-floatplane; 2 x crew
- SN.16 : 1 x (??) hp (??) tractor radial engine; span (??) m
- SN.16 : Single main float with outriggers; twin tails & rudders
- SN.16 : Ing. Manlio Stiavelli & staff design; aka Fiat SN.16
-- https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/th...tion-seaplane-project-1940.12439/#post-229960

CMASA CS.38 - (Project) fighter with Fiat A.38 inverted V-12
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3618.msg28643.html#msg28643
________________________________

 

[Apophenia]

CMASA Giuseppe Gabrielli Designs

CMASA G.5 - 1933 low-wing aerobatic monoplane, 10.52 m span
- G.5/1: Prototypes (MM.212/MM.213), 1 x 140 hp Fiat A.54 7-cyl
- G.5/2: [Project] 2nd prototype orig. 1 x 142 hp Fiat A.60*
-- * Sources differ as to whether G.5/2 built with A.60 6-cyl
- G.5: Prod. type, , 1 x 135 hp Fiat A.70 7-cylinder radial
- G.5bis: Prod. vers., 1 x 205 hp Fiat A.70 7-cyl radial*
-- * G.5bis built new + 34 conversions from existing G.5s
-- aka Fiat G.5/G.5bis and Fiat CMASA G.5/G.5bis

Fiat CMASA G.8 - 1938 2-seat biplane basic trainer, 8.76 m span
- G.8: 1 x 140 hp Fiat A.54 7-cyl radial, 61 built for RAI
-- aka Fiat G.8 and Fiat CMASA G.8

NB: Only exclusively CMASA-produced Gabrielli designs are listed here. Other Gabrielli designs produced at Marina di Pisa include the one-off ICR.42 (CR.42 fighter on CMASA devised twin floats) and series prduction of G.50bis and G.55 fighters.
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Undesignated Aldo Guglielmetti Design Built by CMASA

CMASA BGA - 1936 twin-engined monoplane medium bomber, 21.46m span
- BGA: Bombardamento Genio Aeronautico, 2 x Fiat A.80 RC.41, x 1
-- Single, unsuccessful prototype (MM.295)

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[hesham]

We always see a perfect work from you my dear Apophenia,


thank you,and for BS.12 and JS.12,I think they are the same design.

 

[Apophenia]

... for BS.12 and JS.12,I think they are the same design.

Thanks Hesham, that was my sense too. But was one a derivative of the other. Or is BS a typographical error for JS?

 

[hesham]

May be my dear Apophenia,


but I found it in an Italian site as I mention before,I will try to find it again.

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I think this Info was for CMASA BS.12 Project;

http://www.avia-it.com/act/biblioteca/periodici/PDF%20Riviste/Ala/L'Ala%201948%2002.pdf

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks Hesham. Something rather obvious occurred to me reading that. Italian journals of that period often used a fancy, 'J'-like display character for capital 'I'. That mysterious 'JS.12' is more likely to be the IS-12 (for Idro Stiavelli).

 

[zeroc]

Hello, my idea of how the SN16 should have been.
Cheers,
Marco

 

[hesham]

WOW,nice work my dear Zeroc.

 

[zeroc]

WOW,nice work my dear Zeroc.

Thank you!

 

[Boogey]

Undesignated Aldo Guglielmetti Design Built by CMASA

CMASA BGA - 1936 twin-engined monoplane medium bomber, 21.46m span
- BGA: Bombardamento Genio Aeronautico, 2 x Fiat A.80 RC.41, x 1
-- Single, unsuccessful prototype (MM.295)

I do not speak Italian so I only want to notice another explanation of the abbreviation B.G.A. :

" In 1937, FIAT C.M.A.S.A. built the prototype of a twin engined bomber landplane called B.G.A (Fig. 3). Its name stands for “Bombardiere Genio Aeronautico” (Air Force Engineering Corps bomber) since General Aldo Guglielmetti was one of its designers. This monoplane was based on the same specifications that gave origin to the FIAT BR20 Cicogna, which won the contest, although it was somewhat structurally heavier than the B.G.A. ".

That could not surely be right of course, and comes from the site https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273455013_Forgotten_aircraft_the_aeroplanes_of_CMASA

 

[Nico]

Hi Boogey,
I ever read BGA for Bombardiere Grande Autonomia (long range bomber) and I thought that designation was fair consistent with Italian use.
Nico S.

 

[hesham]

Nice Info my dears.

 

[Boogey]

... for BS.12 and JS.12,I think they are the same design.

Thanks Hesham, that was my sense too. But was one a derivative of the other. Or is BS a typographical error for JS?

I think those aircraft projects were two different types as the JS had to be a six engined passenger flying boat, project was abandoned,
and the BS.12 design had to be a four 1000 hp Piaggio engined bomber and reconnaissance flying boat and was rejected as too costly.

 

[hesham]

Thank you my dear Boogey,

but what is your source ?.

 

[Boogey]

It's the link I placed already in my earlier post :
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/273455013_Forgotten_aircraft_the_aeroplanes_of_CMASA

The type designation JS appears without numerical part ( .12 ) there.

 

[hesham]

Yes my dear Boogey,

it was JS.54,and there was BS.12.

 

[Boogey]

So what do we know about the JS.12 design ? It's a pity there wasn't any information that designation J.S. in the article refers to the JS.54 what confused me.
Reading it I was sure that the description of the six engined passenger flying boat concerns JS.12.

 

[hesham]

My dear Boogey,

its name is JS.54,and was not related to BS.12 as I think,

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9690.msg292210.html#msg292210

 

[hesham]

Hi,

I think I get the MF.1,it was a single seat fighter,intended to compete SIAI S.52,
Piaggio P.2,Fiat CR.1 and Breda-Tebaldi-Zari BT,but definitely it remained unbuilt
project as I Guess,1923.

 

[Apophenia]

I think I get the MF.1,it was a single seat fighter,intended to compete SIAI S.52, Piaggio P.2,Fiat CR.1 and Breda-Tebaldi-Zari BT,but definitely it remained unbuilt project as I Guess,1923.

Interesting. The timing is about right for a Dornier Do H Falke variant.

 

[hesham]

I think I get the MF.1,it was a single seat fighter,intended to compete SIAI S.52, Piaggio P.2,Fiat CR.1 and Breda-Tebaldi-Zari BT,but definitely it remained unbuilt project as I Guess,1923.

Interesting. The timing is about right for a Dornier Do H Falke variant.

You meant,the company offered it to this contest ?!.

 

[hesham]

I think I get the MF.1,it was a single seat fighter,intended to compete SIAI S.52, Piaggio P.2,Fiat CR.1 and Breda-Tebaldi-Zari BT,but definitely it remained unbuilt project as I Guess,1923.

Interesting. The timing is about right for a Dornier Do H Falke variant.

You meant,the company offered it to this contest ?!.

You are right,the MF.1 is Dornier H Falk,from wikipedia;

The company started to design a prototype fighter in the early 1920s, based on earlier wartime designs like the Zeppelin-Lindau D.I. It was an all-metal high-wing cantilever monoplane, with the wing above the fuselage on four small struts. It had a conventional cantilever tail unit and a fixed tailskid landing gear. The pilot had an open cockpit just behind the trailing edge of the wing. The aircraft was powered by a Hispano-Suiza piston engine located in the nose. Two aircraft were built by the Swiss subsidiary of Dornier and three by [S.D.C.M.P.] in Italy,[1] to avoid restrictions on military aircraft production in Germany.[2] It first flew on 1 November 1922, but failed to go into production. One of the Falkes was converted to a floatplane in 1923, powered by a 261 kW (350 hp) BMW IVa V-12 engine, as the Dornier Seefalke.

 

[hesham]

CMASA JS.12 - [Project] flying boat? Stiavelli/Lazzarino design

My dear Apophenia,

the J.S. was never called or given "12" number,even the "54" I am
not sure about it,and my speculations to the designation are,

- MF.11 may it was B.G.A.
- MF.13 may it was J.S.

 

[Apophenia]

Thanks hesham. I cannot remember where I found that "J.S.12" but, as you say, plain "J.S." seems to be the proper form.

Okay, but then things get interesting again. The attached imaged of plain "J.S." shows a 6-engined pasenger flying boat - exactly as described for what I have listed as the CMASA JS.54! Plot thickens.

Source: Forgotten aircraft: the aeroplanes of CMASA, Enrico Manfredi (University of Pisa); January 2015; Report number: DICI 10 (2015); Affiliation: Dept. Industrial and Civil Engineering, University of Pisa; pp 5-6[/B]

In the meantime Stiavelli was designing a large flying boat. It was a six engined passenger flying
boat, called J.S. [5], about the same size of the Short G Class. This plane was due to carry out a regular
passenger service between Italy and Latin America for LATI airlines. The appearance of the J.S. [3] would
have been similar to Fig. 4. At the outbreak of the war work to manufacture three J.S. flyingboat prototypes had begun and a large shed and a big crane had already been installed at the mouth of the river Arno at Marina di Pisa. With the war approaching, the J.S. project was abandoned.

[caption] Tentative rendering of the FIAT CMASA J.S. flyingboat (courtesy Antonio De Paulis)

In the meantime a four-engined bomber and reconnaissance flying boat, the BS12, was preliminary
designed [3]. It was due to be something like the Short Sunderland of the RAF, but, as with the J.S., it
included retracting stabilizing floats in the outboard engine nacelles and sported 1000 hp Piaggio engines. The Italian Air Force allegedly rejected the BS12 design as too costly ...

[3] http://www.lujanargentina.com/html/thmuseoplusultra.htm [dead link] ...

[5] The exact meaning of the J. is uncertain.

That Lujan Argentina page can be found on the Wayback Machine but I see no mention of the relevant projects there:
-- https://web.archive.org/web/20130427005839/http://www.lujanargentina.com/html/thmuseoplusultra.htm

As for that "J.S.54" designation ... I got it from you:
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9690.msg89101.html#msg89101

So now, the question is: Do you have an alternative source proving that there never was a "J.S.54"?

As it sits, I'm inclined to just drop the duplicated number of "JS.12".

 

[hesham]

As for that "J.S.54" designation ... I got it from you:
-- http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,9690.msg89101.html#msg89101

My dear Apophenia,

as you had seen in this topic,only a book who mentiomed that,but
all Italian references called it J.S. only,and I think that,the "54" was
for horse powered,as 700 hp to each engine,to be a brief of "5400",
and not a designation,even the company had no logic to jumb from
BS.12 (1936) to JS.54 (1938),and after that came the RS.14 ?.

 

[airman]

Forgotten aircraft: the aeroplanes of CMASA, Enrico Manfredi (University of Pisa) from researchgate.net/

 

[hesham]

My dear Apophenia,

the J.S. was never called or given "12" number,even the "54" I am
not sure about it,and my speculations to the designation are,

- MF.11 may it was B.G.A.
- MF.13 may it was J.S.

By the way,as I remeber,there was another old site ,which
spoke about J.S.54 ?.