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Author Topic: Jaguar  (Read 17005 times)

Offline PMN1

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Jaguar
« on: November 21, 2007, 11:06:12 am »
In his BSP book, Tony Buttler has a chapter called 'Strike Trainers' which describes the background to what became the Jaguar.

In it he mentions the Folland Fo.147 and 148, the BAC (Vickers) Type 593, the BAC (English Electric) P45 (fixed and variable wing), and the Hawker Siddeley HS.1170B and HS.1173.

How do these compare to what eventually became the Jaguar?

Offline uk 75

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Re: Jaguar
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2007, 04:02:08 am »
The various paper projects in the 1960s generally had the same problems:
overspecification
overexpensive
overcomplex

It is interesting in this regard that the Jaguar never did become a supersonic trainer for the RAF or any other Air Force. France developed the Alpha Jet and the UK the incredibly successful Hawk.  Fun as they are (I am a great fan of 60s excess projects) none could have matched the Hawk for commercial and operational success.

As a strike fighter Jaguar emerged as a success in spite of events. Whether the 60s projects could have matched its low cost and flexibility of operation is doubtful.

Hope this helps
UK 75

Offline alertken

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Re: Jaguar
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2007, 07:49:24 am »
I agree. Jaguar was RAF's first "stealthy" type.

In the aftershock of 1957 Force reduction, cheap quantity lapsed for multi-role quality, because so few platforms would be operated. So: no combat Gnat; add the strategic role to the Tactical Canberra-replacement; put NDBs in Shackleton (!!) Draft ASRs carried the kitchen sink; industry piled capability (=cost/complexity) onto any sketch, trying to multi-task.

After Healey's hacking, AFVG was the white hope; UK bought design leadership by taking junior slot on a Breguet going-concern. Most of RAF's 200 were to be B Trainer, few S Strike, and those might soon lapse. Though UK chose to put Elliott Nav/WASS in it, folk at Warton felt distinctly in Reserve if not assigned to AFVG. Then M.Dassault caused AFVG to lapse. F-4M must be liberated from Strike to replace Lightning, so Jaguar must be procured NOW! as 165/S, only 35/B. So, not much tarting about. S slipped in unobserved.

Healey then ran a competition for the missing advanced trainer (no point in buying more Bs, or Alphajet, from perfidious France). He specified no bolt-on goodies, no multi-tasking, at a fixed price. BAC did not believe him. HSAL, empty, offered one package price for 175 to that Spec, no more no less. Sold. No prototype, no meddling by Requirors piling on nice-to-haves, thus destroying the price.

It was the business success of Hawk acquisition that led to (intended)package-pricing of Tucano, Grobs, E-3D ... Define what you want, leave Supplier to deliver. Don't allow firms to play the Changes game, which they will always win.

If UK had taken junior slot on AFVG, and tried, solo, a multi-role lighter combat/advanced trainer, P.45-ish... then as it slipped and bloated, might we have taken a T-38/F-5E package?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2007, 07:51:57 am by alertken »

Offline zen

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Re: Jaguar
« Reply #3 on: November 25, 2007, 02:57:42 am »
Quote
How do these compare to what eventually became the Jaguar?

Some are better, some are worse.
Those with VG are certain to be more expensive.

Of them all the HS1173 strikes me as the best bet for a supersonic trainer and light fighter/attack type.

In terms of the Jaguar's mission, which if my memory works is called MRI (medium range interdiction), then again there where better designs and worse ones, but their not really to be found in the types offered for a supersonic trainer.

Offline uk 75

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Re: Jaguar
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2007, 04:04:01 am »
The T38 Talon was used by the Luftwaffe to train its crews in the States. Later I think the Portugese and the Turks (?) also used them.
As the RAF and RN used Phantoms, they might have done better to go in with the Luftwaffe to procure the later F4E version, without unnecessary Rolls Royce engines) and with the supporting T38 training as part of the package.
However, Hawk was the result of what actually happened and must be rated one of the most successful Post War British military aircraft exports, alongside the Hunter and the Canberra.
UK 75

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: BAC/Bréguet Jaguar
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2011, 02:09:58 am »
Dear Boys and Girls, here are some pictures of models showing an early configuration for both main versions of the Jaguar. The models were presented by BAC at the Farnborough 1966 show......

The article comes from the 1st October 1966 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Jaguar reconnaissance version project......
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2011, 04:47:38 am »
Dear Boys and Girls, here is an artist's impression of a proposed Jaguar reconnaissance project with a large ventral fairing. It is a "project" but it isn't "secret"......

The picture comes from the 1st March 1968 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Jaguar
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2011, 11:11:04 am »
Dear Boys and Girls, here is a contemporary advertisement for the SEPECAT Jaguar; it shows an earlier type of engine inlet. I like the dayglo or international orange trim on the nose and wing-tips; it reminds me of the gorgeous Mitsubishi T-2......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline consealed

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Re: Jaguar
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2011, 06:28:17 pm »
 :D I've been thinking whether should I write sth to correct the preception of the Jaguar.
The picture snapped from book clearly was to show the original concept of Jaguar was an interceptor.
The key to any great story not is who or what, when or where, but why

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Jaguar
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2011, 06:59:20 pm »
Dear Boys and Girls, here is another contemporary advertisement for the SEPECAT Jaguar; it is part of a 2-page advertisement announcing the first order for 400 aircraft. I like the look of the trainer version illustrated......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Jaguar
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2011, 03:22:19 pm »
Dear Boys and Girls, here is another contemporary advertisement for the SEPECAT Jaguar; it shows an earlier design of engine inlet......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Jaguar
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2011, 08:38:36 am »
Dear Boys and Girls, here is a picture with a caption in French of the full-scale mock-up of the SEPECAT Jaguar (when it was still a "project") that BAC/Bréguet exhibited at the 1967 Paris Salon. Note the design still has wedge-type engine intakes at this stage......

The picture comes from the 15th June 1967 issue of Aviation Magazine International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Jaguar
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2011, 10:04:57 am »
Dear Boys and Girls, here is dramatic contemporary 2-page advertisement in French for the (still) BAC/Bréguet Jaguar; then still a "project" and still with wedge-type engine intakes......

Terry (Caravellarella)
« Last Edit: April 27, 2011, 12:20:49 pm by Caravellarella »
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline Caravellarella

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Re: Jaguar
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2011, 11:03:49 am »
Dear Boys and Girls, here is another contemporary advertisement for the SEPECAT Jaguar; it is a 2-page advertisement announcing the first order for 400 aircraft. Did any of the trainer versions use the colour scheme illustrated?

The advertisement comes from the 15th January 1968 issue of Flight International......

Terry (Caravellarella)
Because L'ORÉAL keeps telling me I'm worth it......
I can scarcely contain my indifference......
Maybe it's MAYBELLINE......
Vamp till ready......
RIMMEL; get the London Look......

Offline uk 75

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Re: Jaguar
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2011, 01:28:42 pm »
Terry   The raf trainer dayglo and silver was worn on the Gnat trainers in 1968. Had Jags replaced them in the 70s they would have been red and white like the Hawks that did. Actual Jag trainers were camouflaged like the A and S versions. Shame as the early Jag designs also look sharper.