Register here

Author Topic: The Admiralty and the Helicopter  (Read 4361 times)

Offline Grey Havoc

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 7377
  • _ \\ //
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2017, 01:27:59 pm »
Currently on a downer on choppers as mine has just been cancelled due to fog.

Chris

You are doubtless behind on your offerings to the Dark Gods of Chaos.
To the Stars

Offline Hood

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 767
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2017, 01:44:09 am »
I must thank you all for your strong interest in The Admiralty and the Helicopter .
I like to think I helped convinced Chris that there was enough interest in helicopters to publish this. I've always thought that helicopters have deserved more coverage and that many people (even beyond the SP subset) are interested in helicopters and even helicopter projects. Even thinking about preserved helicopters in British museums, they are probably under represented (ignoring the Helicopter Museum of course!).

As to a little more background on the book, as so many British helicopter specifications had a joint naval-RAF theme this book can be considered a mirror to Chris's The Air Staff and the Helicopter. It features the naval aspects of the NA.43/OR.325 Bristol 191/192 duo, NASR.358 and NASR.365 so both books provide a full account. But it also goes beyond the projects to investigate how the Admiralty came up with the concept of an anti-submarine helicopter and how they made it work and other developments that were allied to, or competing with, the ship-borne helicopter. Also included are the various weapons proposed or used. I'm hoping even those who don't really get enthused by helicopters but who are interested in naval history will find it interesting too.

As to Grey Havoc's fears, much remains behind the 30 year closure in the UK and many of the files relating to the Lynx and Merlin (in many aspects) remain safely ensconced with the MOD, perhaps until the final retirement of both types. I'm sure there will be more to unearth in future years and there are other topics not yet covered and others which probably deserve greater in-depth study.

Offline Geoff_B

  • The Scratchbuilding Demigod
  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 579
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2017, 05:50:52 am »
Hi James/Chris

Are you going to do a chapter on the Ships to as they are obviously tied in to the process, from the landing pads to Hangers and flight decks on the Type 81 and Type 12, the Escort Cruisers of the 60s, the Type 43 with its amidships flight deck and the growth to put Sea Kings, Merlins and now Chinook sized helicopter decks ?

Geoff

Offline Hood

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 767
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2017, 07:54:27 am »
Hi Geoff,

Sadly space prevents going into fine detail into the ships themselves, but you're correct that the constraints and compromises on the helicopter operations are covered. I've focused more on the deck trials of the early frigates (Types 15, 12, 81) and some of the effects they had on the designs while they were being built and how the Navy approached the problem of operations from the flight deck in all weathers.

Offline Geoff_B

  • The Scratchbuilding Demigod
  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 579
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2017, 02:01:22 am »
Hi James

I think you should mention the Escort Cruisers as they were Helicopter focused missile destroyers/cruisers. Yes we know they went on to evolve into the Invincible class but only us ship lot know about the Escort Cruiser from the likes of Freidman's books, Hobbs and Brown & Moore. As these were early 60s designed optimised for ASW helicopter operations, at a time when the Carriers were still in service in the strike role. Your target audience will be aviation types who are not generally familiar with the naval books on the subject.

Sorry Chris but the title does say 'Admiralty and the Helicopter' its a Ship and Helicopter integration process and it really needs to be covered as your not really covering the subject if you only skim over it. Just compare the evolution of the Wasp on the Type 81 tribal class to the proposed Type 26 with a deck capable of carrying Chinook, operating Merlin and UAV types. There's more than enough info and artwork and pictures to give a full chapter at least (and I think James has already got profile artwork for most of the designs on Ship Bucket ! )

Geoff

Offline Hood

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 767
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2017, 03:45:58 am »
Hi Geoff,

I understand where you are coming from and I agree with you.
I think there is a little of the chicken and the egg scenario with regards to the ships and the helicopters. I tend towards the view that the helicopters came first and the ships were modified accordingly to whatever was available at the time (Type 12 re-arranged for Wasp, Wessex squeezed aboard the Counties, the Tiger conversions extended to allow Sea King, the Escort Cruiser growing to accommodate NASR.358, Type 23 lengthened for Sea King).

We're not beyond the possibility of altering the text, but something might have to be ditched overboard in compensation. Remember, the TechFiles are only 48 pages long (~20,000 words and ~50 illustrations).
I'm not sure how well the Shipbucket profiles would reproduce in printed format, some publishers have tried and gotten decent results but only at small scale reproductions.

Offline JFC Fuller

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 3251
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2017, 04:52:58 am »
Helicopters definitely came first. The ships, especially things like the helicopter cruiser (and its contemporaries in other navies) were designed around packages of helicopters that were themselves conceived based on study work around how many (and of what type) would be required to provide certain levels of availability.

Westland WG.11/ASW Chinook to NASR.358 and the escort cruiser combination represent probably the most exquisite concept for helicopter based ASW the RN ever conceived (EH-101 and Invincible being almost as impressive) but the Chinook based concept itself was later abandoned because of its cost and the fact it had been designed around things that didn't yet exist (e.g. a hypothetical 360 degree long range dipping sonar).

Offline Geoff_B

  • The Scratchbuilding Demigod
  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 579
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2017, 07:37:20 am »
Quote
Westland WG.11/ASW Chinook to NASR.358 and the escort cruiser combination represent probably the most exquisite concept for helicopter based ASW the RN ever conceived (EH-101 and Invincible being almost as impressive) but the Chinook based concept itself was later abandoned because of its cost and the fact it had been designed around things that didn't yet exist (e.g. a hypothetical 360 degree long range dipping sonar).

Which is why I think it should be covered. Us three are probably OK as we all have the relevant ship books to cross reference against and can mate the Helicopter with the ship but most won't. It was through those reference that we found out about the RN Chinook as all Chinook and Sea King references never mention it just assume it was Wessex to Sea King and Chinook was wanted t replace Belvedere in the late 60s but didn't actually happen till the late 70s.

Offline phil gollin

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 188
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2017, 03:44:01 am »
.

I am really looking forward to the book (I  ASSUME  that there will be another book entitled "The Army and the Helicopter" eventually - mostly filled with empty space).

Did you find out anything on the wartime tests of the hoverfly other than the basics ?

.

Offline Geoff_B

  • The Scratchbuilding Demigod
  • Global Moderator
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ****
  • Posts: 579
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2017, 01:51:47 am »
So James (Hood) will you be joining us at Scale Model World in November when Chris launches the book, you'll be able to meet the Project Cancelled crew and we should have one or two suitable models to display along side the book and other books of interest within the Project Cancelled realm.

Offline elmayerle

  • Aerospace Engineer
  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 1156
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2017, 07:23:33 pm »
Any chance of this book discussing the RN's consideration, if any, of the V-22 in any of its variants?

Offline Hood

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 767
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2017, 02:23:46 am »
The book does indeed mention the V-22 but it is not covered in-depth, partly because I'm concentrating on helicopters rather than VTOL aircraft (the distinction being the latter have some form of wing) and also because I don't think it has ever really been considered seriously. Even the talk of HV-22s for the new carriers seems unlikely given the Fleet Air Arm has not possessed any aircraft not flown by at least one of the other services for many years and a tiny fleet would be very expensive for what is a minor role. Even in the days of the strike carrier fleet COD was handled by a couple of stripped-out Gannets. 

I believe Chris may have covered the AEW variants of V-22 in his Admiralty and AEW ProjectTech Profile.

Offline phil gollin

  • CLEARANCE: Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 188
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #27 on: November 06, 2017, 07:48:54 am »

Blue Envoy Press are pleased to announce The Admiralty and the Helicopter by James Jackson.  . . . . The Blue Envoy team will be working on it over the summer and hope to have it available for IPMS 2017 at Telford. ....


.

Any news as to when we can order for snail-mail delivery ?

Thanks

.

Offline Hood

  • Senior Member
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • **
  • Posts: 767
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #28 on: November 06, 2017, 08:41:26 am »
Unfortunately, due to circumstances beyond our control Chris and I have been unable to finish the production in time for IPMS 2017 at Telford.
The delay means it may be early 2018 before the book is printed, but the delay has created the opportunity to include additional information that has only come to light quite recently.

I will be at Telford though if anyone wants to a chat about the book and I hope we'll be able to give a more concrete date for availability quite soon.

Offline CJGibson

  • Top Contributor
  • CLEARANCE: Top Secret
  • ***
  • Posts: 970
  • I didn't get where I am today by...
Re: The Admiralty and the Helicopter
« Reply #29 on: November 06, 2017, 08:56:01 am »
James is correct. We were looking at the first layout and were pretty much ready for press when we had a show-stopper. However, in the meantime some new material turned up like the Shopkeeper in Mr Benn. James and I think this material is worth waiting for, so hope you do too. There might even be enough new material to justify increasing the page count. And Paul knows how reluctant I am on that front.

We'll let you know.

Thanks

Chris