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Author Topic: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War  (Read 170496 times)

Offline flateric

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2006, 12:21:06 am »
Professor Blagonrawow (can you confirm its existence Flateric?. I haven't heard that name ???). shown this drawing in a conference about Soviet existing projects on nuclear powered aircraft. The tilt-wing design is particulary amazing!

Yep, he's a real person http://www.cosmoworld.ru/spacehistory/firsts/blagonravov.html
I remember I have somewhere hi-res pic of a/c shown in lower right corner (from DDR aviation annnual ca.1969) - I sure that it's true what-if a-la all these drawings from PopSci or PopMech of these golden years of 'what-ifs' with nuclear-powered refrigerators at every kitchen etc.
"There are many disbelievers in
stealth, more than a few of them truly technically ignorant and proud of it." Sherm Mullin, Skunk Works

Offline Antonio

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2006, 04:33:23 pm »
Thank you very much Gregory ;)

Offline Matej

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2006, 12:28:26 am »
The tilt-wing design is particulary amazing!

Maybe it is not tilt-wing and this plane is just a few seconds before full disintegration and crash  :D ;D

Bizarre aviation expert.

Offline Dronte

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2006, 06:00:43 pm »
Another "Hokum"

(Muy Interesante magazine-oct1989)


Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2006, 11:43:15 pm »
Quote
A new, extremely agile single-engined multirole fighter closely comparable with the General Dynamics F-16 and designated MiG-35 was flown recently by Indian Air Force pilots... Indian interest in the MiG-35 is understood to be primarily as a fallback in the event that the indigenous LCA does not proceed.

Air International August 1988
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Offline Hood

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #50 on: October 12, 2006, 05:32:24 am »
Reading through my copy of 'The World's fighting Planes' 4th Ed. by William Green and published by Macdonald: London in 1964 I noticed a few guesses on new Soviet aircraft.

Most data was provisional and most photos were grainy offical Soviet pictures.

It gave the Be-10 Mallow a good report on its performance by going by the FAI records it set.

MiG-23 Flipper, or what we know today as the Ye-152 "is potentially one of the best current short-range, single-seat all-weather fighters extant, and is presumably intended to form a team in the I.A.-P.V.O. with surface-launched missiles and the longer-ranged Fiddler." It goes on to describe the 'Awl' IR-guided AAM on the pylons and the intake cone was presumed to house a 28" A.I. radar with a range of thirty miles. It mentions a centre-line pylon for fuel tanks and a rocket pack as well.

There were good line drawings of the YaK-25 Mandrake and other YaK-25 variants that were quite accurate.

The Tu-128 'Fiddler' was thought to be a Yakolev product as was the 'Backfin' bomber wcih it acknowldeges to have failed to enter VVS service. A poor shot featured a large ventral pannier, which I believe was for fuel, but they presume it to be, "a large ventral radar bulge whcih may be prepared to house high-definition ground mapping radar." It even mentions a ventral bay in a bomber version which it compares to the TSR.2.

Other gems in the book include the VFW.1262, EWR-Sud VJ 101D, the first public artists impressions of the SAAB Viggen, the Helouan HA-300, TSR.2 before it was cancelled, an ealry drawing of the F-111, a very accurate drawing and model of the Vought A-7 and loads on the YF-12A and it predicts the SR-71 was unlikely to be built or serve for very long.

Offline elmayerle

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #51 on: October 13, 2006, 01:01:39 am »
I've also seen a reference in which the TU-22 has the NATO Code Name "Beauty" and the TU-128 is believed to be a bomber and given the NATO code name "Blinder".  Once the TU-128 was recognized as a fighter, I understand someone in NATO had the TU-22 renamed as "Blinder" because "Beauty" was "too good a name for a Soviet bomber".  Again, this is strictly rumor.

Offline boxkite

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #52 on: October 14, 2006, 12:03:50 pm »
Quote
[From Matej]

Desinterpretation of what is this? Or pure fantasy?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
russian delta wing concept.jpg (53.55 KB, 468x619 - viewed 49 times.)

Back to the “Rauten-MiG” or “MiG-Raute“ (= rhomb) – this was the name given by West German magazines to the rhomboidal wing fighter (see pometablava/Aug 17 & Oct 01, 2006 & Matej/Aug 25, 2006). I asked my friend Helge Bergander because he is a profound expert on Soviet aircraft and very familiar with original newspapers and magazines from the 1950s and 1960s. This is what he wrote about the mysterious fighter:

An article written by A I Mikoyan was published on June 19, 1954 (it was the eve of the Tushino parade) in the daily newspaper “Sovietskaya Literatura” (!) and came like a bomb to western aviation circles. The parade itself was totally uninteresting. The article was also published in British and US magazines (e. g., Aviation Week Sept 20, 1954).
The “Rhomb(us) MiG” which was 'created' by western editorial offices based on this article. They contained two misinterpretations:
-    Mikoyan doesn't write about MiGs, but about the whole Soviet aviation industry.
-    The term “rhomboidal wing” came from the TsAGI and doesn't mean the rhomb as an mathematic-geometrical term, but a delta wing with negative swept trailing edge as used on the Tsybin RSR, Myasishchev M-54, and Convair B-58.
Interestingly, you can find a more correct interpretation in the excellent translation by the Aviation Week from 1954 – the Russian original specialized literature came up with this statement/definition not before 1990!”


Btw, Helge Bergander is working on a history of the Soviet air shows on the Day of the Air Fleet between 1945-1967. It's a treasure chest for all who are interested in the history of (right and wrong) 'naming' of Soviet aircraft by western spectators. He investigated dozens of Soviet (and others) newspapers, magazines, books and videos to show mistakes (e. g. spread by Y. G.'s books). If you are interested, gentlemen, please use the time to learn German ;D.


 
 

Offline Antonio

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #53 on: December 31, 2006, 04:06:49 am »
Hallo Boxkite

I'm interested in Helge Bergander work :). My German is limited but enough to read aerospace info. Please keep me updated.

I wrote this list this today. Information comes from Spanish Magazine "Avión" March 1956 Issue.


Offline Antonio

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2006, 04:12:10 am »
Fighter info from Avión April 1956 Issue


MiG
>
>MiG-19 (page 150): "Flying Barrel", shown in Tushino on 1951. A  possible
>failure. According to some sources entered in service by  1953 but in very
>limited numbers. The Fresco was prefered for mass- production.
>
>Super-MiG: missidentified as MiG-17 some years ago. Probably based on  a
>twin-jet MiG-15 development. A version with nose radome and lateral
>intakes seems to have been existed. Anyway the type never went beyond  the
>prototype stage.
>
>Super-MiG or Mik-21: The G from Gurevitch would be lost. Twin engine
>project. Provisional arrangement illustrated in the attached pics.
>
>Romboidal wing: exotic but not a new configuration (also studied in  the
>West). I HAD NO IDEA!. This configuration should overcome  defficiences
>known with delta wings. There are little info about it  other than that
>from yellow press from USA. It is known that a  prototype was flown in
>Ramenskoye were 15 different fighter  prototypes had been tested at the
>same time. Its existence was  confirmed by Mr Mikoyan at Radio Moscow.
>
>LAVOCHKIN
>
>La-17 versions: an interim fighter with nose radar (similar to that
>illustrated for the MiG-15) has been fielded while waiting for a
>deffinitive all-weather fighter. A 2-crew assault has been tested but  no
>adopted. Lateral intakes leaving a pointed nose for a radar and 4  cannons
>instalation.
>
>La-26: nothing more has been heard about this all-weather twin jet.
>
>Me-262 analogues: in 1946 a limited number of jets with Me-262
>configuration entered service with Soviet Air Force. It was suposed  to be
>a Lavochkin type and designated La-8. A further improvement  from 1948 was
>given the La-13 number. It was a straight wing type  with underwing poded
>engines. Armament was 4 NS 23 mm in the nose.
>
>La-16: a 1949 evolution from La-8/13 types with swept surfaces and
>armament allocated in the forward fuselage sides to allow instalation  of a
>powerful radar in the nose. The first public apearance in  Tushino 1955 of
>an all weather interceptor codenamed Flashlight seems  to be the final
>developmental stage of the La-16.
>
>Nevertheless the Flashlight shows several differences in detail with  the
>La-16 and nobody can be sure even the Flashlight is a Lavokhin  product.
>
>
>
>TUPOLEV
>
>By 1954 rumors from German sources indicated a Tupolev all weather  fighter
>had entered series production by 1953. It was similar  configured as the
>French Vatour. Data was
>
>Weight: 12 Tm
>
>Lenght: 16 m
>
>Span: 15 m
>
>Engines: 2 turbojet 2250 kg thurst each
>
>Speed: 975 Km/h
>
>Ceiling: 12000 m
>
>
>
>YAKOVLEV
>
>Yak-25 Farmer: Shown in Tushino in 1955. Mass produced. Clearly
>supersonic. Some sources are claiming that it could outperform the  F-100
>being paired to the still secret F-104. Estimated data: Klimov  VK-5b with
>4000 Kg dry Thurst. Max speed: 1,2 to 1,3 Mach. Armament:   4 NS 23 mm.
>Lenght: 9,80 m, Span: 10,60 m.
>
>Yakovlev seems to work in  a flying boat fighter and a rocket fighter  too.

Offline Antonio

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #55 on: December 31, 2006, 04:14:14 am »
BTW, anyone knows where comes the ZAGI designators from it? why it was supposed to be real Soviet designation system?. What does ZAGI means?
Thanks
« Last Edit: December 31, 2006, 04:16:09 am by pometablava »

Offline boxkite

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #56 on: December 31, 2006, 04:25:04 am »
I don't know if the TsAGI (German transliteration is ZAGI) really used/uses type designations (see APR Soviet Seaplane Bombers). But the 'ZAGI-228' (-> Tu-16) and 'ZAGI-428' (M-4) are definitely creations of the west.

Antonio, I've got my printed copy of Helge Bergander's work right at time before Xmas. He is working on a CD-ROM version, so I'll ask him to make a copy for you as soon as it is finished.

Offline mrdetonator

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #57 on: January 01, 2007, 05:59:32 am »
Btw, Helge Bergander is working on a history of the Soviet air shows on the Day of the Air Fleet between 1945-1967. It's a treasure chest for all who are interested in the history of (right and wrong) 'naming' of Soviet aircraft by western spectators. He investigated dozens of Soviet (and others) newspapers, magazines, books and videos to show mistakes (e. g. spread by Y. G.'s books). If you are interested, gentlemen, please use the time to learn German ;D.
I never heard of Helge Bergander, who is he(she) anyway? When you want the truth I`d recommend to start learning russian instead of wasting time with german. Why learning a language which is still screwing-up the cyrillic alphabet? The russian name "ЦАГИ" we (slavs using latin instead of cyrillic) transliterate and pronounce аs "CAGI" (Central Aerohydrodynamic Institute), not ZAGI nor TsAGI.
The "CAGI" was used as an aircraft type designations till the end of worldwar II. The institute itself was officially founded in 1918 in Moscow by N. E. Zhukovsky, at the time already running independent design bureaus. A.N. Tupolev, the cofounder and a student of N.E.Zhukovsky was working in one of the Institute`s design bureaus. Later he founded his own bureau OKB.Tupolev. 
Search the russian internet, it is full of interesting things, e.g.
http://www.rusarchives.ru/secret/index.shtml
There was an agreement signed in 1946-49 about the aircraft naming system of the post-war USSR. I`ve seen it there(the above given website), but now can`t find it. :-[ Then the CAGI designation disappeared, but it might have been used for internal purposes(aerodynamics concepts investigated).
« Last Edit: January 01, 2007, 06:02:55 am by mrdetonator »

Offline PaulMM (Overscan)

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #58 on: January 01, 2007, 06:28:52 am »
"Ц" transliterated as "C" is misleading in English at least, because "C" can be pronounced hard ("cat" with the k sound) or soft ("central" with the s sound). If I see "CAGI" I immediately think "KAGI" which is not correct; "Ц" is the soft C of "central". Therefore transliterating as "Ts" makes perfect sense in English to clarify the pronounciation.
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Offline Jemiba

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Re: Western Artists' Concepts of Soviet aircraft during the Cold War
« Reply #59 on: January 01, 2007, 06:34:43 am »
"I've also seen a reference in which the TU-22 has the NATO Code Name "Beauty" "

This reporting name is mentioned as the second choice in the current AI issue, too.
According to this article, the first name given to the Tu-22, "Bullshot", was rejected,
as inappropriate and "Beauty" was felt as beeing too complimentary, so "Blinder"
was chosen...
Seems to have been interesting business in NATO's ASCC (Air Standards Co-ordinating
Commitee,  or better  ... Comedy ??)    ;D
It takes a long time, before all mistakes are made ...