West German Bundesmarine Naval Projects

[uk 75]

Just bought the 1968/9 and 1969/70 Jane's Fighting Ships and found two interesting West German naval projects which were planned for the 1970s but were different from the final vessels.
The first is for 16 missile equipped fast patrol boats. These would carry the Tartar missile system in launchers similar to those on the USN Asheville gunboats and later bought by Iran for an ex US destroyer. Germany subsequently changed its mind and bought the French MM38 Exocet instead.
The second programme for a missile equipped corvette later a frigate evolved from Germany's Koeln class frigates. It would use Tartar in a similar launcher to the Luthens class, three destroyers of the US C F Adams class
The design was subsequently dropped in favour of the Dutch Koertnaer Standard class frigate with similar armament but NATO Sea Sparrow instead of Tartar.

 

[gollevainen]

Intresting and great findings, These 60's Janes tend to be a goldmine for lots of preliminaries, I need to get myself hold of them more. The Corvette c70 is rather well known from before but that earlier version not so, but peculiarly it shades some light to this old picture I once found from some swedish magazine:

 

[JFC Fuller]

@uk 75 , thank you for posting. Two very different frigate designs there:

1. The 1968 Provisional Proposal, the same shown in @gollevainen 's picture, looks distinctly German. As you say, an evolution of the Koln class, and certainly more in line with the initial Klasse 121 programme name. The radars appear to be the AN/SPS-48 and AN/SPS-49 air search sets though the latter isn't visible in Gollivainen's picture which shows two gunfire control sets versus one in the Jane's drawing instead.

2. The 1969 Official looks very Dutch. The main radar housing looks identical to the Broomstick on the Tromp class. There are two Signaal WM series radars, one fore and one aft, presumably for controlling the 3" guns. The hull is also very different from the Koln and Hamburg classes, in fact very similar to the Tromp class. I would go as far as to say this looks like a Germamanified Tromp. I have seen a higher displacement figure for the Fregatten 70 design, 3,600 tons.

There is a Der Spiegel article, from December 1969, online about the Fregatten 70 programme. My German isn't great but it does mention the SATIR (System zur Auswertung Taktischer Informationen auf Raketenzerstörern), a German equivalent of the US NTDS, British ADAWS or Dutch DAISY, a system by the same name was ultimately installed in the F122/Bremen class.

 

[TomS]

The article doesn't seem that confused to me -- it talks about the DDGs first and then refers to how the Frigate 70 design will have some of the same systems, like the missile launcher.

It appears to me that there was a significant change in the NATO mission for the German Navy around this time. The article focuses on the defense of the Danish Straits and the extension of the NATO air defense bubble to prevent the Soviet air forces from doing an "end around" to bypass the land-based AD assets in Germany. In this context, the Frigate 70 makes good sense, acting essentially as flotilla leaders for the FACs, providing local air defense and extra sensor range. (The article also describes the DDGs as doing some of this, as well as ASW).

But by the time Frigate 70 morphed into the Standard frigates, it seems Germany had acquired a responsibility for Atlantic ASW/convoy protection, hence the very different design of the later ships.

 

[Hood]

The 1968 drawing is labelled "Provisional Projection", Jane's at this time wasn't averse to sketching up a "what-if" conjecture to illustrate a proposal. So basing it off Koln as a projection wouldn't seem unreasonable at that time - indeed the Swedish picture gollevainen found is clearly a Koln airbrushed to include a Tartar and accompanying radars, but the photocopy resolution makes it hard to determine.

The 1969 Official does look Tromp-ish (very similar length, less beam and 300 tons lighter). I suspect with both nations wanting a Tartar destroyer that it made sense to investigate using the AN/SPS-01. The Tromps were COGOG not CODOG - though like the Dutch the Germans did use British gas turbines so maybe an Olympus-Paxman set up was planned. I presume the 76mm would have been OTO-Melara mounts.

 

[TomS]

I presume the 76mm would have been OTO-Melara mounts.

Probably. It's interesting that the 1968 Provisional sketch and the Swedish Bild 11 image are both showing something closer to the old MMI mount, while the Lurssen ad and the 1969 Official sketch have the Compatto.

 

[TomS]

The 1969 Official does look Tromp-ish (very similar length, less beam and 300 tons lighter). I suspect with both nations wanting a Tartar destroyer that it made sense to investigate using the AN/SPS-01. The Tromps were COGOG not CODOG - though like the Dutch the Germans did use British gas turbines so maybe an Olympus-Paxman set up was planned. I presume the 76mm would have been OTO-Melara mounts.

I'm trying to compare the Tromp design with this one and having serious doubts about the displacement numbers. I'm not sure what units Jane's would be using in 1969, probably whatever they were quoted from German sources at this point? So likely metric tons, I guess. If so, the comparable numbers for Tromp are 4377 t (full) and 3724 t (std). That's more like a difference of more than 500 tons std and nearly 900 tons full. Which makes sense given the narrower beam and much smaller draught of the German ship. A big chunk of the full load difference has to be fuel, in keeping with the Baltic focus of the Frigate 70 design.

In practice, SPS-01 would have been far too expensive for these ships, and I'd expect something American. Maybe just the SPS-52 as in the contemporary US DEGs, which has the advantage of being common to the DDGs as well.

 

[Hood]

I am putting this here, although its not specifically a late 1960s project, but dates from some mid during the early/mid 1970s.

I can't put a Type designation to this project from the known list of surface warship Type numbers assigned.
It seems intrinsically linked to the introduction of the Type 148 Tiger-class, putting it around 1970-1975. The mention of helicopters would be the acquisition of the Westland Sea King Mk.41 in 1969 (delivered 1973-75). The source is a 1978 Brassey's book, but other projects from the mid-1970s are included as 'future' projects.

The design itself is quite unusual with its gas-turbine-electric propulsion and in the arrangement of the Exocets.

 

[Grey Havoc]

A corvette as a flagship for a FAC-M / attack helicopter force. Interesting.

 

[gollevainen]

Posting these badly photographed pics from rather rudimentary drawn impressions of the Missile-frigate evolution that lead into the more famous neverwere concept of the type 121 missile frigate. These came from Jahrbuch der Deutschen Marine 1970 Folge 5, and show the evolution of the desing starting from simple gun armed escort to via rather light tartar/mauler armed corvette/light frigate type into the bigger design.

 

[Hood]

A slightly better copy of the Fregatte 70 drawing from Janes (it seems the image was skewed when the page was composited).

 

[NH 17]

Here I thought that no one else could possibly be interested in a German shipbuilding project that fizzled 50+ years ago. Thank you internet.

The rudimentary drawings posted by gollevainen potentially answers why what is obviously a frigate in 1970 was originally labeled as a corvette. Indeed it was, as the drawing depicts a ship with HMS Blackwood Type 14 austerity.

Here is an image from Almanacco Navale 1968-69 which varies from the provisional projection of JFS 1968-69. Pylons are shown in lieu of lattice masts, and the athwartships 3" 62s are substituted with twin 40 mms. I left the Koln image for comparison.
Interesting that no ASW capability is mentioned in Jane's. Any soft kill ASM defense is not evident in either of the drawings. It took the naval almanacs a few more years to take electronics seriously.

As an aside, nice, vintage copies of Jane's from this era can be picked up online for as little as $25. Generally, if you can find one in a bricks and mortar store, they tend to be double to triple that price.

 

[Petrus]

View attachment 691313Interesting that no ASW capability is mentioned in Jane's. Any soft kill ASM defense is not evident in either of the drawings.

Actually the ASW is mentioned. “4 Tls A.S.” means “4 Tubi lanciasiluri Anti Sommergibile” i.e. 4 anti-submarine torpedo tubes.

 

[uk 75]

The makeup of the German Navy in the 1960s and 70s is very interesting.
The Air Defence ship becomes the three Adams class destroyers with a single Tartar/Standard launcher.
Originally the Hamburg class destroyers were looked at as a basis for a SAM ship and Germany also looked at Seaslug and Seacat.
The Luetjens class destroyers were good value for money with decent gun armament, ASROC and later in their lives Harpoon SSM and RAM point defence systems.
Germany unlike the Netherlands only built a general purpose version of the S frigate.
The Dutch only had two Tromp class ships so found money for two Standard equipped frigate in the 80s.

 

[NH 17]

View attachment 691313Interesting that no ASW capability is mentioned in Jane's. Any soft kill ASM defense is not evident in either of the drawings.

Actually the ASW is mentioned. “4 Tls A.S.” means “4 Tubi lanciasiluri Anti Sommergibile” i.e. 4 anti-submarine torpedo tubes.

It is not mentioned any of the Jane's Fighting Ships drawings posted in this thread. You are referring to my post of an image from the Italian reference book Almanacco Navale. Hence the Italian annotation associated with the image. I made this note as JFS is a far more widely known reference, and state that "The tabulated particulars were officially furnished". Did Jane's editors ignore information that was provided, or was there no plan to ship ASW equipment (which would presumably include sonar)? As stated in my post, all of the naval almanacs did not give radar/sonar/ESM much attention at this time.

 

[gollevainen]

I dont think the Janes rendition or the Italian matches 1:1 on any actuall desing, as the progress is rather detailedly descripted in the Jahrbuch der Deutschen Marine 1970 Folge 5 From wich those pictures I posted were, there is no that sort of shape and size ship presented. The caption of the Janes books picture in 1968 cites, "provisional projection" Wich is propably a fancy way to say, this is what we think it looks. On Fregatte 70, you allready have that "offical" description.

In that German Naval yearbook, the one titled "Flak-corvette" was the largest, with 2490t as standard displacement, which is almost 1000t less than in the Janes books. After those designs, It evolps into the shape as given the Fregatte 70 or Klasse 121, and its the first design cited with over 3,000t displacement. The afromentioned publication gives it 3600t, Die Schiffe und Fahrzeuge der Deutschen Bundesmarine 1956 ~1976 Gives it 4000t standard. At all phases in these both books, all the designs were armed with U-jagd Torpedo-Feuerleitanlage and equiped with sonar.

 

[NH 17]

I think that we are basically in agreement, and am trying to not restate what you and others have already posted. Clearly, prior to 1970, the design was in flux, growing ever larger with each iteration. That seems to be the case with this, and many naval (or other military) programs. The initial design is conceived to be affordable, and therefore austere with limited capabilities. As these perceived limitations are rectified, the size and cost increase. Having read about the evolution of USS Norfolk in the National Archives, it seems that every official came into a meeting with their own improvement to the design, and it became ever larger and more complex. Likely the same scenario was at play with Fregatte 121.

As to the sonar and torpedo tubes, I pointed out their absence in the initial Jane's produced provisional design as it was so unlikely that such a capability would not be included. At that time, I gather that Jane's was possibly a one man (R.V.B. Blackman) with a secretary editorial shop. He was operating by exchanging letters and the occasional phone call. There was no fax, Fedex, email, mobile phone/cameras or Shipbucket. That's a big job and it is understandable that it sometimes his work was inaccurate or otherwise wanting. Still, for a reference book of that caliber, he/they were slow to realize the importance of ASW weapons and sensors, as well as other electronics.

 

[gollevainen]

Yes, from all those Ive read, Ive never actually came across any detailed description about any other eletrics than the Tartar missile itself. So all eletrical fit was basicly just "a radar, A sonar." That leaves also quite lot to be missinterepted or ignored... Also, at any rate the ASW capacities in the design would have been minimal and par with the previous generation of vessels, as you really couldnt get good multipurpose vessels with that tonnage in those days. If i understood correctly, the reason why the Klasse 121 was dropped and Klasse 122 (Standard) was chosen instead was the sifht of emphasis for the ASW work

 

[TomS]

Yes, from all those Ive read, Ive never actually came across any detailed description about any other eletrics than the Tartar missile itself.

To be fair, I think navies were a lot less forthcoming about the specifics of electronics fits back then compared to the present day. But I think it's also true that the authors of references like JFS tended to be less versed in the intricacies of radar and ECM back then. They were still most familiar with the WW2 era, when radar and especially ECM fits were very sensitive topics not to be discussed in public.

 

[uk 75]

West Germany bought ASROC with the Adams class but does not seem to have considered it for other ships.
Unlike the Dutch and the RN the Bundesmarine has to wait until the Lynx and F122 to get helicopters aboard its warships.
Apart from the three Adams the Hamburg class destroyers and Koeln class frigates have no missiles until the arrival of MM38 Exocet on the Hamburg class in the 70s.
The F122 are a major step change in equipment and much more useful than extra Tartar equipped escorts.

 

[TomS]

West Germany bought ASROC with the Adams class but does not seem to have considered it for other ships.

And just to add to the weirdness, the 1965-66 JFS entry for the German ships lists one D.T.C. (I assume Depth Charge Thrower) among the ASW weapons. It also lists provision for a helicopter, which was definitely not present in the US ships or the German ones as built. (I struggle to imagine where even a DASH drone could have been fitted)

 

[uk 75]

The US Navy were building a similar type of ship in this period

Brooke-class frigate - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[TomS]

The US Navy were building a similar type of ship in this period

Brooke-class frigate - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

No, JFS specifically calls out the German ships as Charles F. Adams class and all the other specs match the USN versions.

 

[uk 75]

The US Navy were building a similar type of ship in this period

Brooke-class frigate - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

No, JFS specifically calls out the German ships as Charles F. Adams class and all the other specs match the USN versions.

Sorry I was not posting this in reply to your post about the German Adams.
I meant it to show that the Germans may have been inspired by the Brooke class.

 

[TomS]

The US Navy were building a similar type of ship in this period

Brooke-class frigate - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

No, JFS specifically calls out the German ships as Charles F. Adams class and all the other specs match the USN versions.

Sorry I was not posting this in reply to your post about the German Adams.
I meant it to show that the Germans may have been inspired by the Brooke class.

Ah, got it. Yes, the Brookes could well be an inspiration for the earlier iterations of Tartar frigate/corvette.

Looking back, I had not noticed the missile corvette with both Tartar and Mauler. Suggests to me that they envisaged Tartar as a significant antiship weapon, with Mauler needed to protect the launch ship while Tartar engaged the enemy vessels directly.

 

[uk 75]

The Germans planned to order Tartar in the box launched version like the US Asheville class and also Iran under the Shah.
These were replaced by MM38 in the 70s when the fast patrol boats entered service.
I wonder if they were planned to also go on Hamburg and Koeln class ships.

 

[NH 17]

West Germany bought ASROC with the Adams class but does not seem to have considered it for other ships.

And just to add to the weirdness, the 1965-66 JFS entry for the German ships lists one D.T.C. (I assume Depth Charge Thrower) among the ASW weapons. It also lists provision for a helicopter, which was definitely not present in the US ships or the German ones as built. (I struggle to imagine where even a DASH drone could have been fitted)

That is just what I am talking about The listing for ASW equipment was absent, vague or incorrect. There were also many references to ships having a helicopter, or helicopter capability, when there was only a minimally clear spot somewhere that could be used for UNREP or personnel transfer.

 

[NH 17]

The Germans planned to order Tartar in the box launched version like the US Asheville class and also Iran under the Shah.
These were replaced by MM38 in the 70s when the fast patrol boats entered service.
I wonder if they were planned to also go on Hamburg and Koeln class ships.

Not sure if I have understood you correctly here. Do you mean Tartar box launchers for the Hamburg's? That I do not know. However, as you may know, MM 38 was installed in 1975-77.

 

[uk 75]

The Tartar box launchers are shown here on one of the fast patrol boats which entered service in the 70s with Exocet.
However, had the Tartar been bought for the FPB I assume it would have also been fitted to the Hamburg destroyers like the MM38. The Koeln class were withdrawn and sold to Turkey before missiles could be fitted.

 

[A Tentative Fleet Plan]

A variant of the Asheville class gunboats armed with both Mauler and box-launched Tartar was offered to West Germany at some point in the 60s.

 

[NH 17]

Benicia was fitted with box launchers for Standard missiles in 1971 (see pics). She was transferred to South Korea, without the missile launchers, later that year. As you can see from the pictures, she did not have the Mk 87 FCS, limiting the utility of the missiles.

Benecia's sisters Antelope and Ready were given the complete launcher and FCS refit in 1972 (see pics). Both were decommissioned in 1977. This short period indicates either the limited success of the system, or a new focus on the Harpoon equipped Pegasus class.

The Tartar/Standard missiles were designed with a limited anti-ship capability. However, Harpoon, as a keel up anti ship missile, had better targeting capabilities.

Tacoma Boatbuilding constructed a modified Asheville for South Korea, Thailand and Taiwan designated the PSSM Mk 5. At least first four of the South Korean units were to be fitted with Standard missiles, but I see no evidence that this came to pass.

 

[Hood]

A related snippet from the 1960 Edition of Jane's on the Type 101 Hamburg-class, which originally was to be followed by additional ships, some of which were to be a larger design with a SAM system (presumably Tartar) with a displacement of around 6,000 tons. This of course was overtaken by the decision to purchase the Adams-class.

Of note are the projected names, only the first two ships Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein (then in construction) received names matching this list, the second pair becoming Bayern and Hessen.

I've edited the thread title to widen the scope a little.

 

[moin1900]

Book Title:
Die Bundesmarine 1950 bis 1972 Konzeption und Aufbau

Author:
Johannes Berthold Sander-Nagashima

Google Books

Some Projects...
- nuclear powered submarines -- Page 145
- nuclear powered destroyer -- Page 62- 65
- nuclear TARTAR missile -- Page 292
- nuclear SEA-MAULER missile -- Page 268
- Bundesmarine midget submarines
SEEHUND, BOEING SEEPFERD, MANTA -- Page 151-153

 

[gollevainen]

Hi. I have that book on my own collection, and I was able to find the references to the Nuclearpropulsion submarines, atleast the 1959 ideas of 1200-1500t boats, as well as the Nucleartipped Tartars, but I didnt catch anything about the nuclearpowered destroyers? Could you perhaps direct me to which pages to look for, since Ive recently got quite fascinated about nuclear powered non-cv surface combatants

 

[LVisingr]

This all sounds very, very interesting! Is it possible to post some more detailed info about the Bundesmarine naval projects from the book, please?

 

[TomS]

Nuclear Sea Mauler?!? That sounds borderline suicidal. And technically challenging. Did anyone ever package a nuclear warhead down to 127mm?

 

[zen]

The UK tried to sell Seaslug I think in the 50's to Germany. Does anyone know more?

 

[Yellow Palace]

Nuclear Sea Mauler?!? That sounds borderline suicidal. And technically challenging. Did anyone ever package a nuclear warhead down to 127mm?

I can only assume that nuclear Sea Mauler is something being misinterpreted, because I can't think what it would be useful for. Point-defence missiles are all about quick reaction, and nuclear weapons... aren't that.

The Swift device tested in REDWING YUMA was around that mark (some accounts say 5 inches, others 130mm), though 24.5 inches long. The boosting failed and it was considered a fizzle at 190 tons yield. Ted Taylor seemingly thought that a 105mm nuclear artillery projectile was feasible.

 

[Tzoli]

Isn't that misinterpreted as a Nuclear ship armed with Sea Mauler or Tartar?

I don't recall a RIM-24D Nuclear Tartar!

The nuclear blast is one thing, what about the EMP? Or does the EMP effect requires a minimum yield to form?

 

[TomS]

Isn't that misinterpreted as a Nuclear ship armed with Sea Mauler or Tartar?

I don't recall a RIM-24D Nuclear Tartar!

The nuclear blast is one thing, what about the EMP? Or does the EMP effect requires a minimum yield to form?

Perhaps. Hopefully someone with access to the book can check.

There wasn't a nuclear Tartar, but it was more technically feasible. There was a nuclear warhead for Terrier and one planned for Typhon MR.

Any nuclear blast will generate some EMP, but the wide-ranging impact people generally think of requires a high altitude detonation.