Okay, so he was already in the UK at least a year before the flip. That would be harder to "alert" him to...
Historically, he finished the work on the engine and returned to France circa 1960 where he died in 1963. I suppose ITTL he simply remains in Britain (very possible he would be marked as strategic asset at this point and be watched - just in case) and works on BS100.

Also, note that he approached French command, NATO, probably Americans - but nobody except the British expressed any interest. The West German VAK 191B was built around the same British concept and Rolls Royce engine (which ITTL they won't have), but apparently it was the Americans who killed it off with Advanced Vertical Strike program -


...which makes the Convair 200 look sane and rational.

I suspect that the Americans are complaining about how hard it is to control in the hover and transition, while the Brits are writing about how it flies.
Sharky Ward apparently relished the hover capabilities, and wrote they were so intuitive and easy. But that was Ward.

And I'm assuming that Red UK would go straight for P1154.
I think Harriers will still be built, because they would be available earlier, and they are smaller, i.e. you can fit more of them into a ship. But gradually P1154 will supersede them.

If you're catapult launching Convair 200s, why do they have lift engines at all?
Vertical landing, I suppose. Launch always can be catapult/ski-jump (and the latter is purely British invention, and only circa 1970, and never installed on American LHDs for some reason).

I would even go as far as imagine (in half-jest) that because US generally leans towards large, expensive and technically complex solutions (every country has it's style), they would probably prefer catapults even on smaller carriers or Sea Control Ships. The ski-jump is a poor man's way to launch, and the USN can hardly have that, right? :)

The main problem is that we currently approach the issue with definite knowledge of Pegasus success, and that's the hindsight knowledge that disturbs a proper reconstruction. But for the Americans in the 60's (when the development takes place) it's very far from an established fact. We know it, they - and then - didn't, and we have to replicate their way of thinking with their contemporary knowledge. I find it very telling they did not try to replicate the engine or create their own implementation even after actually introducing Harriers into service and having full access to this technology. I may be not sufficiently familiar with US VSTOL projects, but it seems none of them had similar engine configuration, except polishing the Harrier itself, like larger wings, more payload, etc.

The more I look at it, the more it seems to be a pattern where the Pegasus configuration is deliberately rejected by US designers in favour of literally anything else. Why did they have this aversion historically, and why wouldn't they have it ITTL?
 
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I think Harriers will still be built, because they would be available earlier, and they are smaller, i.e. you can fit more of them into a ship. But gradually P1154 will supersede them.
If nothing else, it'd make a good trainer for the P1154 and help refine the concepts. Might even shift to single-hot-nozzle and twin boom tailplanes.



Vertical landing, I suppose. Launch always can be catapult/ski-jump (and the latter is purely British invention, and only circa 1970, and never installed on American LHDs for some reason).
IIRC the US didn't like the ski jump because it took over at least one helicopter launch spot, plus deck parking area.



The more I look at it, the more it seems to be a pattern where the Pegasus configuration is deliberately rejected by US designers in favour of literally anything else. Why did they have this aversion historically, and why wouldn't they have it ITTL?
Obviously, there's some respect of patents going on. Patent issued in 1955, for example, would last until 1970 or 72 (I forget how long patents lasted then). But I suspect it's a whole lot of Not Invented Here more than IP concerns.
 
If nothing else, it'd make a good trainer for the P1154 and help refine the concepts. Might even shift to single-hot-nozzle and twin boom tailplanes.
And they are very versatile as economic mass-produced aircraft for overseas deployments.

IIRC the US didn't like the ski jump because it took over at least one helicopter launch spot, plus deck parking area.
This means USMC Harriers used pure vertical takeoff in general, not running?

But I suspect it's a whole lot of Not Invented Here more than IP concerns.
Exactly. And it looks like an extremely strong current, with apparent reasoning of "we can make it powerful enough to carry those additional engines and still stick it to everybody". That's why I like the Convair 200 as working assumption, it just fits the style and the prevalent thinking.

As a side note - was there any concept that the US copied from any foreign source, friend or foe, during this period, in 60-80's?
 
And they are very versatile as economic mass-produced aircraft for overseas deployments.
Yep. Call them a VSTOL A-4 and you're not far off.


This means USMC Harriers used pure vertical takeoff in general, not running?
No, they did use running takeoffs to prevent damage to the runways they were using. But we're talking ~250ft takeoff and a ~50ft landing on a hot day on asphalt. Vertical if it's concrete or steel.



Exactly. And it looks like an extremely strong current, with apparent reasoning of "we can make it powerful enough to carry those additional engines and still stick it to everybody". That's why I like the Convair 200 as working assumption, it just fits the style and the prevalent thinking.
While I think you're right about style and thinking, I really hate the extra engines. Mostly because of all the extra maintenance!



As a side note - was there any concept that the US copied from any foreign source, friend or foe, during this period, in 60-80's?
They sorta-copied the layout of the Foxbat in the F-15, and "copied" what they thought it could do. Big wings for high-g maneuvers, powerful radar, fast...

Propulsors on torpedoes and submarines was a UK development that got adopted on the tail end of the 688s, the Seawolfs, and the Virginias.
 
No, they did use running takeoffs to prevent damage to the runways they were using. But we're talking ~250ft takeoff and a ~50ft landing on a hot day on asphalt. Vertical if it's concrete or steel.
So vertical from the deck. But it is the vertical takeoff that burns a lot of fuel and limits the range, so one would think it would be avoided as much as possible. That's why I thought of catapults, especially on modernized Essexes, where there is a lot of space for those things, but even on Sea Control ships, if they are ever built.

While I think you're right about style and thinking, I really hate the extra engines. Mostly because of all the extra maintenance!
Huh, when working on maintenance on the Convair, always remember it could have been an Advanced Vertical Strike fighter.

Also, if the Convair enters service as a proto-F-35 (because of VSTOL and CTOL variants), would it mean no F-18 in the timeline?

VSTOL A-4
Hm. Would the US look in this direction as well?
 
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So vertical from the deck. But it is the vertical takeoff that burns a lot of fuel and limits the range, so one would think it would be avoided as much as possible. That's why I thought of catapults, especially on modernized Essexes, where there is a lot of space for those things, but even on Sea Control ships, if they are ever built.
I mean, if the other aircraft of the wing (AEW, fixed-wing ASW and COD) need catapults then yes they'd give Essex or big-SCS/VSS catapults. Or if the RedUK Invincibles ended up around 35,000 tons I think they'd get a catapult or two.


Huh, when working on maintenance on the Convair, always remember it could have been an Advanced Vertical Strike fighter.
I'm still throwing wrenches and cussing at engineers...



Also, if the Convair enters service as a proto-F-35 (because of VSTOL and CTOL variants), would it mean no F-18 in the timeline?
It'd have to push up the development a little for the Convair, which the UK going Red would definitely do.

But yes, I think it'd replace the F-18.



Hm. Would the US look in this direction as well?
You mean make a VSTOL A-4? Not really. The A-4 was designed when early nukes were huge and heavy, intended to carry a single nuke on the centerline. So it could carry 8,500lbs of ordnance but didn't really have the hardpoints to be able to carry that many conventional bombs unless you stuck 6x 1000lb on triple-ejector racks. It'd need a (much) bigger engine (~16klbs dry for the cruise engine) and by that time you've basically got the Convair 200. Just add an afterburner to whatever engine you're using and it's supersonic. So you'd have an F/AV-12 or whatever number Convair gets.
 
This means USMC Harriers used pure vertical takeoff in general, not running?

No, very rarely done. A vertical take-off greatly reduces the payload the Harrier can carry, so it is almost always a training or airshow procedure - not an operational one unless it is operating from an isolated piece of hard-surface.

Aboard ship it was/is a run along the port half of the flight deck, leaving the ship over the bow... landing was vertical almost always.

Remember, Invincible's flight deck was 550 ft (168 m) long - the flight deck for the USN's LHAs & LHDs was 820 ft (249.9m) on the LHA 1-5 ships, and is 844 ft (257.2m) on the LHD 1-8 & LHA 6+ classes.
That makes a huge difference as to the speed a USMC Harrier is going when it leaves the flight deck as opposed to an Invincible class - the ski jump is to compensate for the shorter flight deck, one simply isn't needed on the USN ships.

Also remember that the primary purpose for the USN's ships is landing & recovering troops and their equipment - making a fully-flat flight deck rather important due to the extra helo take-off/landing spot or two.
 
As a side note - was there any concept that the US copied from any foreign source, friend or foe, during this period, in 60-80's?

They sorta-copied the layout of the Foxbat in the F-15, and "copied" what they thought it could do. Big wings for high-g maneuvers, powerful radar, fast...

BS - the F-15 layout is that of the A-5 Vigilante with the center "stores" tunnel removed, the engines moved closer together, the two vertical stabilizers the initial A-5 mockup had (but moved outboard of the engines), and the fuselage shortened some.

That well predated the MiG-25, which STARTED design work in 1959... the Vigilante mockup I mention was built by early 1956 (see pic below).

NAGPAW (A3J/A-5) MOCKUP 1956:

NAGPAW_A3J_MOCKUP_1956_1.jpg


The F-14, which is also very similar in layout (the engines are spaced similar to the A-5 - but the fuselage center is a flat section for external payload, not an internal payload space) but with variable-sweep wings, was well into design work before the MiG-25 was first spotted by US observers.

Remember, designers using the same laws of physics, similar technical development (materials tech etc), and similar performance requirements, tend to end up with similar solutions - even if working in isolation from each other.


The only thing the F-15 owes to the MiG-25 was it focused the USAF on making sure the F-15 was very maneuverable, so it would counter the good maneuverability they (erroneously) thought the MiG-25 had.

In designing the F-15 for 9G turns the USAF accidentally doubled the MiG-25's actual 4.5G rating (2.2G with full fuel tanks).
 
A quick graphic post.

Mig-27 -> HS Vulture GR, a direct replacement of the Jaguar

1745282034109.png

1745282054742.png
And Tu-22M (Albatross) with conventional payload of 3 Blue Steel Kh-22 missiles:

 
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My apologies, had to beat some stupid out of the computer yesterday.

I generally agree with the MiG-27/Jaguar mix.

My question is whether the UK would contribute to the design, buy some, or just allow some Tu22Ms to be based on Blighty.
 
Or if the RedUK Invincibles ended up around 35,000 tons I think they'd get a catapult or two.

Not necessarily, by the way. Pegasus-style engines + ski-jumps work just as well, and having a VSTOL AEW kind of clears the problem on their side.

Aboard ship it was/is a run along the port half of the flight deck, leaving the ship over the bow... landing was vertical almost always.

Yes, I thought it would be kind of strange to waste a lot of fuel for vertical takeoff when you have enough deck space.

I generally agree with the MiG-27/Jaguar mix.
It's quite possible the Brits would squeeze an additional radar in there at some point (like on the Jaguar, if I am not mistaken), otherwise this one is very straightforward.

My question is whether the UK would contribute to the design, buy some, or just allow some Tu22Ms to be based on Blighty.
A bit of both. From the very beginning I assumed local production in Britain for British variants of all the Soviet aircraft (like with helicopters and partly Phantoms IRL), so they would have differences and local quirks comparing with the continental counterparts (like the Tu-22M Interceptor with Sea Darts). Hence the localized names. But since most of those projects date post-switch, it is very likely the British companies will have a hand in almost every project, and would supply parts, electronics, etc, but the ironic thing is that in many cases they will still look the same.
 
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Adjusted the engine compartment, air intake size and the radar cover on the Harrier-Ko-45 AEW hybrid

Left the pylons for additional fuel tanks, but those are easily removed if needed, and the landing hook as well.

With folded wings it fits the elevator on the Command Cruiser.
 
Looking at main gear oleo scissor link compression on the mains, I think you could increase the size of the radome quite a bit. Probably to half the distance to the flight deck.

But damn that looks awesome! Not quite what I was imagining, since I was picturing a tandem cockpit, Harrier T4 style, but I like this shape.
 
Looked into the timeline of the County class destroyer development. Takeaways:

1) it falls exactly on the Switch, 1957-58
2) the process was extremely fluid, design changed rapidly
3) lots of complaints about the state of Sea Slug
4) very wide range of alternative options, like -
a suggestion by the Parliamentary Secretary that the Army’s new guided-missile ‘Green Flax’ could take the place of Sea Slug.

All of which leaves a possibility for a complete redesign.

Previously I envisioned two versions for this class, anti-air with Sea Slug (similar to IRL) and long range anti-surface with Soviet SS-N-3b (option to upgrade to SS-N-12 later) in aft reloadable launcher, and maybe a Sea Dart forward instead of the B turret (for batch 2).

It may still go along the same lines, but now I am not so sure. SA-N-1 appears to be more reliable and compact than the Sea Slug with otherwise very similar specs, can be fitted in a more conventional vertical magazines (which can - possibly - be replaced with Sea Dart in late 70's refit), and overall I drift in the direction of Kresta-1 armament set. Keeping mostly the same hull and superstructure, of course.
 
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Probably to half the distance to the flight deck.
With the deck heating on vertical landing I'd rather not :)

But damn that looks awesome!
Thanks! I like the way it looks too, and the side-by-side cockpit is certainly more ergonomic and comfortable. And it would be also possible to make an attack and EW versions.

It's only the wingspan that bothers me for now a little. It can't launch from the Command Cruiser without a ski-jump because of the missile launchers forward, and I have some doubts about the Invincible. I think it's possible, but would be rather tight.
 
Just a wild thought.
But if the Channel is festooned with missiles each side as a 'hot border' between Power Blocks. It would make it a highly unattractive stretch of water for commercial traffic.

This would significantly affect the economic distribution across Western Europe and favour the Mediterranean and Norway.
As a result the Lowlands economies would be suffering but France would be much more determined to hold the Algerian coast.
Germany would be throwing cash at Tito and Ceaucescu for Danube access. Which would affect Hungarian politics.
 
Why did they have this aversion historically, and why wouldn't they have it ITTL?
IP I guess. While the UK got involved in development into a practical engine and US funding was present, it seems US ownership of IP wasn't part of that funding.
At a time where the US was not happy to license much from anyone, 'anything but the Brits and French together' makes a significant amount of sense.
 
Adjusted the engine compartment, air intake size and the radar cover on the Harrier-Ko-45 AEW hybrid

Left the pylons for additional fuel tanks, but those are easily removed if needed, and the landing hook as well.

With folded wings it fits the elevator on the Command Cruiser.
This would greatly benefit from ditching conventional aerials and utilising the SLAR technology actually muted as an alternative for UK AEW.
 
Just a wild thought.
But if the Channel is festooned with missiles each side as a 'hot border' between Power Blocks. It would make it a highly unattractive stretch of water for commercial traffic.

This would significantly affect the economic distribution across Western Europe and favour the Mediterranean and Norway.
As a result the Lowlands economies would be suffering but France would be much more determined to hold the Algerian coast.
Germany would be throwing cash at Tito and Ceaucescu for Danube access. Which would affect Hungarian politics.
Global trade would be a tangle.

Apart from the Channel, scratch the North Sea. Med is partly choked by Gibraltar from the West and Aden from the East. I suppose Britain retains de-facto (under whatever party facade) control of Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia are Red-friendly. Falklands, Ascension and St. Helena look over the South Atlantic.

For the trans-Atlantic trade, therefore, the routes would go through western French coast, Portugal, Spain. Kind of La Rochelle instead of Rotterdam. It can cause an extensive development of both roads and railways between those countries, tunnels under the Pyrenees, that sort of thing, then to the north, through Belguim-Netherlands, Denmark to Sweden, much of it overland. And very extensive trans-Pacific traffic, Japan to US west coast.

A big question on Caribbean possessions. The Brits would be very lucky to hold Bermuda station et al in '58, but would they be able to do it, I have no idea.
 
At a time where the US was not happy to license much from anyone, 'anything but the Brits and French together' makes a significant amount of sense.
The feeling - nothing concrete, though - is that apart from this there was a certain amount of disdain towards foreign/cheap solutions. But unless we catch and ask somebody who worked in the industry at the time, we would never know for sure.
 
The feeling - nothing concrete, though - is that apart from this there was a certain amount of disdain towards foreign/cheap solutions. But unless we catch and ask somebody who worked in the industry at the time, we would never know for sure.
Based on the issues with getting the J65 Sapphire working right because Wright insisted on making a lot of changes, I'd argue that there was a lot of disdain for foreign designs in general.

Also, FN-made weapons were usually called "Belgium Brownings" (example, the A5 shotgun), as an exception to the "if it doesn't say "Made in USA" it's crap" mentality.
 

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