Warsaw Pact Britain - naval strategy and other considerations

[Martes]

If you can figure out a way to put a 29-inch radar dish and a radar operator into a Sea Vixen, then go for it.

Technically, they squeezed a radar in the Mig-21P/PF variants in very-very early 60's, so it could've been done, I suppose.

But the MiG-21 is more nearly an equivalent to the SR.177 as a fast-climbing interceptor to be operated alongside the slow, all-weather Sea Vixen.

This just may be the right solution. A bit cumbersome, as it will require each carrier to operate three types of jets (Scimitars, Sea Vixens and Mig-21), but certainly possible.

RAF would get a bunch of them regardless, of course.

 

[RedLegion]

The question of the UK's role in the expanded Warsaw Pact. In such circumstances, France is holding on more tightly to the United States. So, it will be French Phantoms versus British MiG-25s over the English Channel. If the UK retains its European holdings, the Black Sea Fleet's breakout into the Mediterranean now becomes an active issue.

 

[Martes]

The question of the UK's role in the expanded Warsaw Pact

The idea was that the UK would become a maritime force of the WP -

The USSR, on the other hand, can provide Britain with exactly what was missing in real history - dropping on it's shoulders the imperial maritime responsibility that, combined with Soviet underwater and nuclear missile power would have created a credible counterweight to the US.

France is holding on more tightly to the United States. So, it will be French Phantoms versus British MiG-25s over the English Channel.

Oh, yes. Not only that, probably France would get some additional carriers from the US, and have a closer nuclear submarine program. We had it discussed some pages ago, about the NATO transport corridor going from Portugal->Spain->France->West Germany->Denmark->Sweden->Norway.

If the UK retains its European holdings, the Black Sea Fleet's breakout into the Mediterranean now becomes an active issue.

European holdings - Gibraltar, Cyprus, Malta? I assume they will hold to all of those, and yes, Mediterranean would be a constant tension point. The WP hot war plan would include assault on Istanbul from both sides, I suppose.

 

[Martes]

France is holding on more tightly to the United States

The overall situation would be very reminiscent of the Napoleonic wars era (I also mentioned it before), and, of course, the War of 1812, and both of them would get a lot of place in propaganda on all sides.

Not only in Europe - consider the Indian ocean, where India, Malaysia and Indonesia are red or at least reddish, and the French still control Mauritius and lease a base to the US there.

 

[Scott Kenny]

The question of the UK's role in the expanded Warsaw Pact. In such circumstances, France is holding on more tightly to the United States. So, it will be French Phantoms versus British MiG-25s over the English Channel. If the UK retains its European holdings, the Black Sea Fleet's breakout into the Mediterranean now becomes an active issue.

No, I think we'd see Dassault building Mirage IV fighters, not bombers.

 

[Grey Havoc]

The Republic of Ireland might end up being reabsorbed by Great Britain in the 1970s, much to the displeasure of the Americans. Definitely a heavily fortified border otherwise.

 

[Martes]

No, I think we'd see Dassault building Mirage IV fighters, not bombers.

Not sure if it should be mutually exclusive - I mean they can get Phantoms leased/sold with the carriers as a package, it's just less likely Armee de l'Air would take them as well. Depends on hardware panic levels in Paris, probably.

 

[Martes]

Hm. Somehow I missed this one before.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/royal-navy-terra-nova-icebreaker.8326/

Could we see a British copy of Lenin or Arktika for Antarctic patrols this way?

 

[Dilandu]

The question of the UK's role in the expanded Warsaw Pact. In such circumstances, France is holding on more tightly to the United States. So, it will be French Phantoms versus British MiG-25s over the English Channel. If the UK retains its European holdings, the Black Sea Fleet's breakout into the Mediterranean now becomes an active issue.

The Warsaw Pact Britain basically ruins the whole NATO strategy. No American troops could be rushed to Europe with Britain blocking the way. So we could expect USA and France doubling down on nuclear deterrence as basically the only realistic options they have.

 

[Grey Havoc]

Also, the dogma that was Strategic Sufficiency would have a very short lifespan in this timeline, at best.

 

[Martes]

USA and France doubling down on nuclear deterrence as basically the only realistic options they have.

- increased militarization in France and West Germany, probably vastly larger standing armies
- luring in Spain and Sweden, to create some kind of nuclear wall across Europe
- more extensive work on SSBNs

And increase peripheral/colonial wars wherever possible, starting with Ireland (which will be very ugly).

Which is exactly why I referenced the Napoleonic period, because the map and balance of power would be closer to that time.

 

[Martes]

why I referenced the Napoleonic period, because the map and balance of power would be closer to that time.

increased militarization in France and West Germany, probably vastly larger standing armies

Turning the table a little and looking at possible French hot war plans, I wouldn't put beyond them a serious planning of an invasion of Britain itself, precisely to clear the way for American reinforcements and disrupt navy operations. Nuclear strikes on London, Portsmouth, airbases, air defenses around the channel, followed by massive paradrop in key locations and a kind of modern Boulogne flotilla to transport tank units.

And there would certainly be rumors about a cross-channel tunnel being dug from the French side.

 

[Martes]

Also, the dogma that was Strategic Sufficiency would have a very short lifespan in this timeline, at best.

Oh, I missed this. Could you please elaborate?

 

[Martes]

A quick rundown on missile systems (most of those were already mentioned before, but I thought it'd be convenient to make a summary).

One of the main differences the side switch will affect is an introduction of a heavy naval surface-to-surface missiles into the British inventory, and accordingly, into the British doctrine.

As I mentioned somewhere earlier, the switch falls on the final design phase of the County class destroyer, so the Counties ITTL would be different, and would likely be the first RN ships to carry the P-5 (SS-N-3 Shaddock) in this or that configuration. That would give them strike range of 350-400 km, and would form the base for combined carrier aircraft and missile strike tactics against US carrier groups.

Possibly, the same system may be temporarily deployed on carriers in the 60's.

This line of development eventually produces the SS-N-12.

Sea Slug, is cancelled (partly because of the room that would be needed on the Counties for the strike missiles, partly because it was ridden at that moment by development problems and there was no confidence they would be eventually solved) and replaced by Soviet SA-N-1, which is relatively quickly phased out in favour of Sea Dart.

The ramjet Sea Dart would appear in many different variations, including surface-to-surface (tactically replacing exocets and harpoons), air-launched and active radar, and at the same time would develop into the scaled-up monstrous P-700 (SS-N-19) and the more compact P-800 for vertical launch cells.

For heavy air-launched missiles, the Blue Steel would likely be merged during development with Kh-22 (AS-4) and later get a smaller variant of KSR-5 (AS-6), to be carried on V-bombers and supersonic Tu-22 and the British version of Tu-160.

Since IRL the Soviets got their hands on both Sidewinder and AIM-7, the Skyflash can be developed as well, but otherwise mostly Soviet or jointly developed air-to-air missiles would be used.

The Martel/Sea Eagle series, is, apparently, based on (or at least inspired by) Soviet Kh-58 (AS-11), so there would be, possibly, additional anti-ship variants of this AS-11 in British service.

Of course, everybody, including the Soviets, copied the Harpoon and the Tomahawk, so those would be available as well, but generally I suppose we would see a much more focus on supersonic anti-ship missiles.

 

[Martes]

HMS Triumph moored in the Neva river, Leningrad, October 1955:

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[Martes]

A late 80's modernization for CVA/1160 carriers:





Updated superstructure with flat radars, Mars-Passat like system, Su-33 (Wyvern) airwing, newer missile systems, etc.

This brought me to take a closer look at various stages of the Soviet projects, and to my surprise, I realized that 1160 was, apparently, much closer to the CVA that I previously thought, and that their development was somehow intertwined.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/russian-and-soviet-aircraft-carriers.1948/post-841787

 

[Martes]

Another find lately was Mig Ye-8.

That means that if this project went ahead ITTL, with British-Soviet cooperation, we could have seen the Typhoon (or something looking very, very close to it, with older electronics, of course) replacing Mig-23 and flying from 1969.

 

[Martes]

Long overdue, I finally got around to making Soviet liveries for the Harriers.

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My current assumption their naval platforms would be closest to Merkuriy project (which really looks like a Vosper-Thornycroft implementation for the same requirements)



But at least in the meantime, until I find or make it's model, it is possible to suppose that Vickers would be happy to supply a couple of Invincibles as replacement for Moskva and Leningrad anti-submarine ships, just like they wanted to build their light carriers for export. Since there would be no Soviet Kievs in this timeline and likely no heavy carriers until the 90's at the very least (if at all), so there is ample place for "aircraft carrying anti-submarine cruisers" in the Red line of battle.

Therefore, a quick version for the Soviet Invincible - I replaced the main radars with Fregat and Forum systems and Sea Dart with naval S-300 and their radars, but without repainting the hull -

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In some sense I think this way the whole naval aviation thing will cause much less internal friction in the Soviet navy than IRL. Working class and practical, not some kind of prestige ships and all that.

 

[Martes]

And with a proper Soviet repaint:

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[Martes]

Late 80's (economic) modernization variant for the command cruisers - not yet a full carrier, with Mars-Passat system, P-1000 missiles, catapult and arrester gear, carrying Drakes (Mig-29), Typhoons (Mig-23) and helicopters:

 

[Martes]

Soviet flight ops

 

[Martes]

Oh. So it turns out there was a British Mig-25/31, and I would have to change the Wraith designation to EE.

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/english-electric-p-42.1853/

 

[Foo Fighter]

A new Royal Yacht (presented to the Queen by the People and Party of DDR):

View attachment 766279

(the Seefa 750 class liner model is present in the game, I just repainted it accordingly)

How should I call her, I wonder. Britannia is, obviously, already built in this timeline, and the question is how should a second yacht be properly named. I circle around Caledonia, Hibernia or Royal Anne, but still not completely sure.

Queen Anne's Revenge - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Martes]

Another find lately was Mig Ye-8.

That means that if this project went ahead ITTL, with British-Soviet cooperation, we could have seen the Typhoon (or something looking very, very close to it, with older electronics, of course) replacing Mig-23 and flying from 1969.

A Soviet skin for the Typhoon - because a relatively obvious solution for the Ye-8 engine problems would be replacing a single engine with two, which would please the British carrier admirals as well - which in turn would result in this effectively becoming Mig-23:






And a different superstructure and paint corrections for the Soviet Invincible:







I think she's got a relatively recognizable silhouette of a late 80's Soviet missile cruiser now, and sufficiently different from the British counterpart.