Vought JTACMS/ATACMS (MGM-140)

TomS said:
Look art what the GMLRS Alternative Warhead accomplishes with essentially pre-fragmented HE. Most of the same effect as a cluster weapon with no UXO problem when you're done.
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I've seen it but I wouldn't say it's as effective as a cluster bomb against an airfield with multiple aircraft spaced out.
 
TomS said:
Look art what the GMLRS Alternative Warhead accomplishes with essentially pre-fragmented HE. Most of the same effect as a cluster weapon with no UXO problem when you're done.
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This is one of those...

Yes and No.

Deals.

The Altheads do do an Terrorifing Amazing job.

When used in their design situations. Which involves needing pretty good coordinates of the target. Cause they do have an limited effect raduis which is roughly 25 30 meters radius irc in the open. So you need to get within 20 or less meters of the target to kill it. Past that or for multiple targets in simple cover like say trenchs or holes, the effectiveness DOES drop sharply.

Thus the US Army been going hard on the Tact Recon assets as to find the targets to get their coordinates to put it IN the hole and adding terminal seekers to the weapons so they can hit moving targets.

Clusters have upside of spreading the explosive out over a wide area, bout 50 meters radius for the old M26s, that gives you uniform coverage of the Tungsten Ball bearings, same as used in the Alt warheads, for a 75 meter effect radius with a high chance of one the clusters landing side the holes to shred what ever inside. With each bomblet having a 10 meter shred raduis.

So that basically a 50 meter targeting error allowance so you can basically shotgun an area and be extremely sure of giving someone a bad day.

Like theres videos of Ukraine putting a cluster into a Russian Trench...

The word Blender cames to mind as the bomblets got spread through the trench lines and positions.


Which is why the Army debating bout going back to look at clusters.

Cause they can do what the Alt warheads cant. Since at the end of the day, the Alternative Warheads are basically Shrapnel shells with airburst fusing and Tungsten BBs. And have most of the limits of such.

Very much one of those upsides vs downsides how much flexibility vs expectations etcs deals that can be hotly debated.
 
TomS said:
Look at what the GMLRS Alternative Warhead accomplishes with essentially pre-fragmented HE. Most of the same effect as a cluster weapon with no UXO problem when you're done.
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The more modern warheads appear to be 3D printed, which allows for complex shrapnel shapes to be printed in layers around the explosive with sufficient voids and weak spots to produce an exact desired pattern. The warhead effects are also now digitally modelled to determine potential effects ahead of time and then tested to confirm the models. Unitary fragmentation has never been so effective, though against true wide area targets, cluster munitions are going to have an advantage.
 
Problem is, the Unitary warheads haven't worked out that well in practice.
 
Josh_TN said:
I think there was an executive order to the effect that the U.S. would not use cluster munitions. I think this was revised under Trump to allow cluster munitions with a dud raye of less than 1%, although I do not think any US weapons in storage meet that standard.

Were the U.S. to be in a drawn out peer war I’m sure those weapons would be made available.
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The whole idea of clumping all UXO together with AP mines was silly anyway. Most UXO exists because they're duds, they're a nuisance and all due care has to be taken when neutralising them, but they rarely kill anybody for the same reason they failed to explode in the first place. Remnant AP mines however are something completely different, they're fully functional live mines that remain unexploded purely because nobody has triggered them yet.
 
Forest Green said:
The whole idea of clumping all UXO together with AP mines was silly anyway. Most UXO exists because they're duds, they're a nuisance and all due care has to be taken when neutralising them, but they rarely kill anybody for the same reason they failed to explode in the first place. Remnant AP mines however are something completely different, they're fully functional live mines that remain unexploded purely because nobody has triggered them yet.
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US cluster bombs in 1991 had an egregious dud rate though. And in a place with lots of blowing sand able to cover them up for many years so now the explosives have degraded into something a lot touchier than when they were made and certified to be safe enough to handle in general.
 
Scott Kenny said:
US cluster bombs in 1991 had an egregious dud rate though. And in a place with lots of blowing sand able to cover them up for many years so now the explosives have degraded into something a lot touchier than when they were made and certified to be safe enough to handle in general.
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Not really too concerned by that. Doesn't sand stabilise explosives anyway? :confused: There are still duds that have survived since WWII stuck in populated areas of the UK. The whole thing started because of AP mines in Africa. It should never have gone beyond AP mines.
 
Seems the ukrainians bombed the helicopter base of ten days ago, again. Remember, it was the first attack with ATACMS provided through the small, $300 million package of February.
 
www.pravda.com.ua

Powerful explosion rocks Dzhankoi

Telegram channels reported a powerful explosion in Dzhankoi and the surrounding district in occupied Crimea on the night of 27-28 April.
www.pravda.com.ua www.pravda.com.ua

The usual caveats obviously : a) the source and b) it remains to be confirmed.
 
Archibald said:
www.pravda.com.ua

Powerful explosion rocks Dzhankoi

Telegram channels reported a powerful explosion in Dzhankoi and the surrounding district in occupied Crimea on the night of 27-28 April.
www.pravda.com.ua www.pravda.com.ua

The usual caveats obviously : a) the source and b) it remains to be confirmed.
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There's nothing on liveuamap yet, so either nothing or an intercept maybe.
 
TomS said:
Not quite.

The 2008 policy said that only weapons with a dud rate of less than 1% can be used, with no provision for a waiver. The 2017 policy revision states that existing inventory weapons with dud rates in excess of 1% can be used at the COCOM's discretion but no new weapons will be manufactured unless the dud rate can be gotten below 1%.
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I can only supposed that dud rate of the current inventory has only gotten worse with age. Going forward, it would probably make more sense to dispose of those inventories, with gifting as the cheapest means. Old rubbish does not constitute a viable war reserve for American forces but it is fine for a proxy conflict. If CMs and anti-tank mines are vital, both should be areas of investment and future procurement. Personally I think a 2% dud rate is doable with modern electronics and backups. The cost would definitely worthwhile for runway denial or SEAD. Vietnam war style anti-personnel, not so much. After all, children don’t tend to play on military runways but they seem to be just about everywhere else. One legless kid is enough to turn global public opinion these days.
 
Seems it has started to rain ATACMS, today. The above, and Dzankhoi - take three. Remains to be confirmed, but it would make limited sense.
Long story short
Ukraine recently has received two separated batches of ATACMS. First one was funded through the $300 million "small package" scrounged in February out of Pentagon few money and stocks. Second lot seems to be related to the $60 billion aid unlocked on April 20 - and send in emergency over the last few days: perhaps stockpiled in Poland before the aid unlocking.

Now that the ukrainian have secured two packages of ATACMS, it makes some sense they have started raining them on Crimea and elsewhere. Also fragmentation warheads... just like the Iskander on Odesa two days ago.

All this - IMVHO, and not intending to start a flame war.
 
I'm actually surprised by how accurate it was considering that the APAM ones only have inertial guidance, granted it was a cluster warhead, but the centre of distribution was pretty much bang on.
 
Defense Updates has another video just out about the MGM-140 and this time it's about them destroying SA-21 Growler SAM batteries:


Ukrainian military forces have successfully hit Dzhankoi Air Base which is located in the northern part of Russian-occupied Crimea
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Ukraine's military intelligence said the strike damaged four S-400 air defense launchers, three radars including 92N6E Grave Stone Multimode Engagement Radar, an air defense command-and-control center, and other surveillance equipment.
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ATES guerrilla movement said in a statement, that the occupiers believed in their newest air defense system so much that they placed warehouses with missiles directly near the launcherUkrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said that Kyiv was behind the strike and thanked his top military commander, Colonel General Oleksandr Syrskyi, for organizing the operation.
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In this video, Defense Updates analyzes why S-400 couldn’t defend itself from ATACMS fired from HIMARS ?
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#defenseupdates #ATACMS #HIMARS
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Chapters:
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00:11 INTRODUCTION
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01:55 BACKGROUND
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02:33 RUSSIAN S 400 AIR DEFENSE SYSTEM
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04:26 HIMARS with ATACMS
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07:20 ANALYSIS
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Josh_TN said:
How do we know what center of the target was?
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I'm assuming it was the group of 4 vehicles at the start of the video.

Oooo, I thought they were just shrub bushes.:oops: Probably because the camera footage was so shaky that everything else looked still.

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