TsrJoe

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ChuckAnderson

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Hi TsrJoe!

This is only indirectly connected to the subject of Finnish aircraft, (this is probably just background information of a sort), but I thought that somebody may find it interesting anyway.

Clicking-on the link below will take you to a website page with colour illustrations of the insignia of rank worn by the personnel of the Finnish Air Force, as well as other service branches and the national police.

http://www.uniforminsignia.net/index.php?p=state&id=97

I just thought that it would be interesting to see an aspect dealing with the people who fly and maintain the aircraft we study.

Chuck
 

elmayerle

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Make for an interesting illustration or diorama of a flightof these escorted by Vl Pyoremsky fighters.
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Most likely it would have faced the same problems as VL Pyörrmyrsky during the preproduction. One being the rather primitive finnish glues (which caused problems with Pyörremyrsky, pieces falling and flying off.) The bad glues also resulted in designs not being very weather-resistant.

In a related note, which I remember reading from somewhere, but can't pinpoint the source at the moment, was the rather crude state of finnish wood industry at the time. DeHavilland used rather sophisticated techniques in making the wooden parts for Mosquite, which was something the Finnish industry of the time was unable to reproduce. It might have resulted in a much cruder shape than the very lean Mosquito, which most likely would have resulted as more drag and longer production time.
 

Apophenia

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

I suspect that Juhae is right. DH also had access to high-quality woods from around the world.

Hard to find a substitute for the British Columbia sitka spruce used for Mosquito spars. IIRC, balsa for the plywood cores was sourced from Ecuador.
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Hi Justo, from here you can find an Valmet on a museum !
http://www.airventure.de/tipps_zentralfinnisches_luftfahrtmuseum/Museum_Finnland_VL_Pyoerremyrsky_2.jpg
right name is Valmet Pyorremyrsky
engine: DB 605 of 1475 hp
weapons: 1 gun Mauser of 20 mm and two gun of 12,7 mm like a Bf-109F!
speed: 650 km/h
range: 1 hour or 2,5 hour with drop tank
from " Caccia 23/II -Dimensione Cielo - a book of 1974)
or war planes of the second world war MacDonald&Co Publishers" ( the original english book)
 

Apophenia

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Airman,

VL's Pyörremyrsky (Hurricane) and Puuska (Gust) are related but separate designs.

The Puuska was a lightweight fighter with narrow-track undercarriage (Pyörremyrsky had a wide track gear). Puuska was also quite a bit smaller. Both were powered by German DB605A-1s.

The Ilmavoimat ordered the Puuska in January 1944 but never built (presumably because Bf-109Gs were readily available).

There were two versions of the Puuska design, the PU-411 and PU-412. IIRC, design work started in 1942.

A comparsion of specs

Puuska Pyörremyrsky
Span 9.20 m 10.38 m
Length 7.50 m 9.13 m
Engine DB605A-1 DB605A-1
Max speed 650 km/h 620 km/h
MTOW 2,750 kg 3,310 kg
Ceiling 14,000 m 11,250 m
Armament 2 x LKK/42 2 x LKK/42
1 x MG 151 1 x MG 151


http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/376/78/0/1
 

Antonio

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Valmet Puuska drawing from Justo Miranda post:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3409.0.html
 

airman

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Apophenia said:
Airman,

VL's Pyörremyrsky (Hurricane) and Puuska (Gust) are related but separate designs.

The Puuska was a lightweight fighter with narrow-track undercarriage (Pyörremyrsky had a wide track gear). Puuska was also quite a bit smaller. Both were powered by German DB605A-1s.

The Ilmavoimat ordered the Puuska in January 1944 but never built (presumably because Bf-109Gs were readily available).

There were two versions of the Puuska design, the PU-411 and PU-412. IIRC, design work started in 1942.

A comparsion of specs

Puuska Pyörremyrsky
Span 9.20 m 10.38 m
Length 7.50 m 9.13 m
Engine DB605A-1 DB605A-1
Max speed 650 km/h 620 km/h
MTOW 2,750 kg 3,310 kg
Ceiling 14,000 m 11,250 m
Armament 2 x LKK/42 2 x LKK/42
1 x MG 151 1 x MG 151


http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/376/78/0/1
thanks , than was a variant of Pyörremyrsky : there are not great difference with two airplanes ! Puuska was a little small than Pyörremyrsky and more longineus !
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

airman said:
Apophenia said:
Airman,


http://wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/376/78/0/1
thanks , than was a variant of Pyörremyrsky : there are not great difference with two airplanes ! Puuska was a little small than Pyörremyrsky and more longineus !

I understand your reasons. Please see the similarity in the attached drawing.
 

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Justo Miranda

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Pyörremyrsky drawings by myself are SOURCE GRADING 5

Plese find attached two Puuska drawings from Keski-Suomen Ilmailumuseo, via Hannu Valtonen
 

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Justo Miranda

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Here comparative drawings Puuska/Pyörremyrsky from "Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen Lehti" 2/1998
 

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Apophenia

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Very nice ... thanks Justo.

Interesting that there is no sign of the twin 12.7mm guns in the Finnish drawings (I wonder: is this a difference between the PU-411 and PU-412 designs?).

IIRC, consideration was also given to larger calibre main gun. Maybe VL thought they could dispense with cowl guns if there was a large enough weapon firing through the spinner?
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Apophenia said:
Very nice ... thanks Justo.

Interesting that there is no sign of the twin 12.7mm guns in the Finnish drawings (I wonder: is this a difference between the PU-411 and PU-412 designs?).

IIRC, consideration was also given to larger calibre main gun. Maybe VL thought they could dispense with cowl guns if there was a large enough weapon firing through the spinner?

Puuska was a light fighter.Its armament was a MG 151/20 with 300 rounds only.
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Joe,
Any idea where we can find the side evaluation of the Daimler Benz powered 'Vihuri' ?.
Thanks in advance.
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

by design i suppose that Valmet "Puuska" was more manovrable !
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

airman said:
by design i suppose that Valmet "Puuska" was more manovrable !
Faster airspeed and better climb rate than in Bf-109, with the expense of having no armour at all.
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

The VL Wihuri is actually was the heavy fighter projects designed in Finland based on De havilland Mosquito air frame.But like the VL Puuska project,It did not pass the prototype stage.
 

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Chicken kana

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

I Live in finland and I´m Finnish person. Vihuri is also non-project(Wihuri and Vihuri are does´t same plane)I http://rareaircraf1.greyfalcon.us/FINLAND.htmWihuri is Mosquito whit DB-605.Videohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWiBBlS6o5o&feature=related and Puuska Project Videohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKGwqlj1eUo



http://finnbits.com/galleria/original/model_2.htmlAnd that is VIHURI´S PIC. More Finn Project Under (VL Humu is Brewster B 239 whit Wooden wings)
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

What book are those 3-views from?
 

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Apophenia

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

The VL Puuska also has a thread: http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,3433.0/
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Valmet = Valtion metallitehtaat = The State's Metal Factories (direct translation) and was formed in 1951. A multiple industrial company, probably best known to the public from their farm tractors.

VL = Valtion lentokonetehdas = The State's Airplane Factory, this was formed to build trainers long before the war. When Valmet was formed, VL was absorbed into that.

So the best thread title would be perhaps VL Finnish pre-1945 projects. (Since VL only is too vague.) :)
I've also read that book the history of VL, part 2, shown in the pic above by Chicken Kana. There's also a separate thin book about VL Myrsky, the Finnish fighter that came closest to operations.


This is more of an overviewing story, trying to perhaps put things into some perspective (like we've had discussions of some other industries and analysis of the reasons of failures):

The state also tried to encourage private airplane building companies, and the brothers Karhumäki had some activity going on but nothing major happened in terms of indigenous private production. Finland tried to buy airplanes and engines desperately from everywhere just before the winter war and later, but not much could be had. Some English Blenheims, Dutch Fokkers and American Brewsters.

VL:

Before the continuation war, VL had built some self designed trainers and also some Fokker XXI:s and Bristol Blenheims on licence. Some repairs and mods were made too. There was effort spent on building wind tunnels, laboratories, sending young engineers abroad to learn about the industry etc, building new factories and airfields, training pilots, the whole culture and infrastructure for a small aviation industry.

During heated war, most of the capacity of VL went into repairing existing types so little effort could be spent on building new ones.

Myrsky used wood and partly rag construction and was somewhat structurally old fashioned and suffered from flutter at high speeds which caused destruction of test aircraft. Of course the power wasn't too high either; with no domestic engine production, earlier bought Twin Wasps were used. Aerodynamically it wasn't that old fashioned for early forties, used the NACA 23015 airfoil. Later versions used more plywood and less fabric than the earlier ones. Also lack of good glues didn't help (A few different substitutes were tried but they didn't work well, suffered badly outdoors etc). Germany's situation had worsened towards the end and they couldn't deliver any good glue. Some Myrskys were used for reconnaissance at the late war, being faster than all but the Me-109 but I think it can be seen mostly as a failure.

There wasn't any aluminium production in Finland. Aluminium was also hyper expensive if you bought it from somewhere like Switzerland - Finland didn't have much valued currency back then. It was deemed much more effective to construct anything locally because there was local relatively cheap labor that could still produce good quality products with some training.

Also shifting requirements were a problem. Myrsky was put on hold since in the early war when Soviets still had slow planes, the Brewster Buffalo proved to be so great that effort was spent on Humu, a Brewster copy. But things changed.

It was no certain thing that the Messerschmitt Me 109:s could be had from Germany. They had been asked for many times and were finally sold (though only a few at start) quite late. The Germans had earlier sold different war booty types to the Finns. Some French ones were practically unusable, the Morane Saulniers were a bit better with an engine change. If the Me:s would not have gotten here, who knows what would have happened.

When DB engines were potentially available, Pyörremyrsky was designed. It's quite a wooden Me-109 lookalike. And then later, Puuska, an emergency or folk fighter, with only a few guns and no armor. Various versions of that. And then there was the Vihuri Mosquito copy idea with the Germans. Only a single Pyörremyrsky flew of these later and lesser projects.

VL:s aircraft starting from the trainers almost all had wind themed names, here are the wartime fighter types:
Myrsky = Storm
Humu = Hum / Party whirl (hard to translate)
Pyörremyrsky = Hurricane / Cyclone / Typhoon
Puuska = Gust
Vihuri = A certain kind of pretty hard wind, breeze. Name later re-used for the Vihuri trainer.
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Justo Miranda said:
Pyörremyrsky drawings by myself are SOURCE GRADING 5

Plese find attached two Puuska drawings from Keski-Suomen Ilmailumuseo, via Hannu Valtonen

Pyörremyrsky is non-project. You can see Pyörremyrsky(In english it mean hurricane) in Keski-Suomen Ilmailumuseo.
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Chicken kana said:
They are SIL(Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen lehti=Finn Aviationhistorical magazine)http://www.kolumbus.fi/sil/contents.html.In Link Choose Year Chapter In Right.It`s Finn languege Magazine. Valtion Lentokone Tehtaan Historia 2(You find it in Google ) Book You Find Wihuri-Mosquito Drawnings. :) :)

Valtion lentokone tehdas=VL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VL_Humu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valtion_lentokonetehdas

Thank you
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Chicken kana said:
Justo Miranda said:
Pyörremyrsky drawings by myself are SOURCE GRADING 5

Plese find attached two Puuska drawings from Keski-Suomen Ilmailumuseo, via Hannu Valtonen

Pyörremyrsky is non-project. You can see Pyörremyrsky(In english it mean hurricane) in Keski-Suomen Ilmailumuseo.

I agree...
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Renamed topic
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Some additional info here -Post-1
From
-Ilmailumagazin Nº10/1948 by VL
-Ilmailu 5/1946 by Ilkka Lounamaa
-Suomalaiset Hävittäjät by Klaus Niska
-Lentäjän Näkökulma by Jukka Raunio
-IPMS Mallari Magazine nº16 by Daniel Martin & Esa Muikku
-Suomen Siivet
1/1973,2/1973 by Seppo Uolamo & Juha Rinne
 

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Justo Miranda

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Some additional info here -Post-2
From
-Ilmailumagazin Nº10/1948 by VL
-Ilmailu 5/1946 by Ilkka Lounamaa
-Suomalaiset Hävittäjät by Klaus Niska
-Lentäjän Näkökulma by Jukka Raunio
-IPMS Mallari Magazine nº16 by Daniel Martin & Esa Muikku
-Suomen Siivet
1/1973,2/1973 by Seppo Uolamo & Juha Rinne
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Here is a lite finnish DB605 engined interceptor project from 1943.
78_1.jpg

There is a longer story about in Suomen Ilmailuhistoriallinen Lehti ( Finnish Aeronautical History Magazine ).
It had 720 km/h top speed ( estimate ) and only one 20 mm cannon ( no machine guns ).
Retractable mid fuse mounted radiator.
It was extremely small.
PUUSKA_3.jpg
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Apophenia said:
I suspect that Juhae is right. DH also had access to high-quality woods from around the world.

Hard to find a substitute for the British Columbia sitka spruce used for Mosquito spars. IIRC, balsa for the plywood cores was sourced from Ecuador.

I doubt that, since also Spruce Goose was build from birch wood as was the finnish plywood. The real problem was the bad availability of the glue.

Alvar Aalto in fact introduced the pressed "plywood" or rather laminated chairs in USA that Charles Eames so eagerly with Eero Saarinen developed further.

See more images here; http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,19536.0/topicseen.html
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Apophenia said:
Nice profiles topspeed3.

Mod: Should this be merged with VL Finnish pre-1945 projects?
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,621.0

Thanks for the link..I tried to look for the Puuska but search gave no answer.

---

These specs are amazing, but I think the landing gear was unsolved..or not even studied at this stage.

Puuska specs;

Span 9.20 m
Length 7.50 m
Engine DB605A-1
Max speed 700+ km/h
MTOW 2,750 kg
Ceiling 14,000 m
Armament 1 x MG 151

Speed curve clearly indicated higher speed than 650 km/h in the magazine ( anyone have it ? ).
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

FAF 1918-1944 swastika dates or originates from this man alone;

Eric von Rosen...who was in fact a dedicated national socialist; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_von_Rosen

INSERT;

The von Rosen swastika [edit]Eric von Rosen had been using a swastika as a personal owner's mark. He originally saw the symbol on runestones in Gotland, while at school. Knowing that the symbol signified good luck for the Vikings, he utilized the symbol and had it carved into all his luggage when going on an expedition to South America in 1901. Being a friend of Finland, he gave the newly-independent state an aircraft, which signified the beginning of the Finnish Air Force. The aircraft, a license manufactured Morane-Saulnier MS Parasol/Thulin D, was marked with his badge, a blue swastika on a white background. The Finnish Air Force adopted this as their national insignia.[3]
800px-Ensimmainen_kone.jpg
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Thanks Jemiba !

I corrected the PUUSKA image after the data that Puuska was only 7.5 m in length..it is a tad too big above with 3 other fighters.
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Here is also the only working solution for the gear; double folding gear leg.
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Puuska with few other planes from same era in comparison.

;)
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Great stuff topspeed3!

topspeed3 said:
Apophenia said:
I suspect that Juhae is right. DH also had access to high-quality woods from around the world.

Hard to find a substitute for the British Columbia sitka spruce used for Mosquito spars. IIRC, balsa for the plywood cores was sourced from Ecuador.

I doubt that, since also Spruce Goose was build from birch wood as was the finnish plywood. The real problem was the bad availability of the glue...

I didn't make it all that clear but my reference was to the Vihuri as a Mosquito clone. Without access to those more exotic woods, VL has no option but to completely redesign the Mosquito airframe for locally-available woods. 'Do-able', no doubt, but no longer a simple matter of reverse-engineering.
 

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Re: VL Finnish pre-1945 Fighter Projects

Apophenia said:
Great stuff topspeed3!

topspeed3 said:
Apophenia said:
I suspect that Juhae is right. DH also had access to high-quality woods from around the world.

Hard to find a substitute for the British Columbia sitka spruce used for Mosquito spars. IIRC, balsa for the plywood cores was sourced from Ecuador.

I doubt that, since also Spruce Goose was build from birch wood as was the finnish plywood. The real problem was the bad availability of the glue...

I didn't make it all that clear but my reference was to the Wihuri as a Mosquito clone. Without access to those more exotic woods, VL has no option but to completely redesign the Mosquito airframe for locally-available woods. 'Do-able', no doubt, but no longer a simple matter of reverse-engineering.

Okay...copying any aeroplane without original designers authorization is a shady business.
I talked to a finnish aviation specialist ( history geek ) and he said the glue wasn't a problem either but lack of skilled craftsmen at the factory. All other wooden planes pre Myrsky/Pyörremyrsky did not leave pieces behind.
 

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