Various projects from pre-war and wartime Germany

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Jemiba

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" ..created a lot of interest and a lot of publication"
Yes, and at least for some aviation enthusiasts the end of the cold war probably
was a pity, as now more and more material, which before was even more secret
than secret, became available, the latest russian aircraft appeared on airshows
and so on .. ! Interesting, of course, but that nimbus of mystery had gone ...
For the german aviation from war times it's still there !
 

Firefly 2

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Jemiba said:
"... that we will have to agree to disagree." ???

I think, it's a statistical problem. You are saying "53% white, 47 % black"
and I'm saying "No, at least 54 % black and only 46% white"
And you know : Never believe in statistics, you didn't manipulate yourself ! ;D
Only small facets of this theme may be provable, not one of ours opinions
as a whole and so, it remains, what it is : An opinion, a point of view, debatable,
but neither right or wrong .

And as long, as I don't get mails with angry comments, that I'm obviously too
stupid to understand that the german scientists were by far the best, better
by a whopping margin, than their allied counterparts, just because of their racial
origin, etc., etc .... everything's ok.
( Following a similar discussion in another forum, I got such mails ... ::) )

LOL, no I'm not such a person. And I love a good debate.
But this forum ... So many people know so much more than I do that it is daunting. I have devoured everything I can lay my hands on here in Brussels. Even as to browse the National Library for more, and yet I'm still at kindergarden level apparently.
Oh well, live and learn. Didn't somebody say something in the lines of " The conflict of opinions is the initiator of change"?
 

Jemiba

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"And I love a good debate. "
Yes, that's something I can agree to to 100 % ! A good debate is
always worthwhile, no matter, what the theme is ! ;D

And as aviation is such a wide field, I think we all are more or less
on kindergarden level, with the exception maybe of some special
themes ...
 

Kim Margosein

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OK, let's stipulate that the Germans were ahead on swept wings, the axial-flow engine was better than the centrifugal flow engine, and they were well ahead on military rocketry. However- if they bothered to develop a decent 4-engine bomber, von Braun would have been the Goddard of Germany-some interesting projects, but not much came of them. Conversely, if the US shoveled money at Goddard the way the Germans did with von Braun, I am sure that the US could have had something similar to the V-2, although to what purpose I do not know.
It seems that there is a certain German engineering flaw that says "why use a sheet metal stamping when two machined parts will do just as well?"
Small arms? care to put up the M-1 against the Mauser 98?
Jeep vs Kubelwagen?
GMC 2.5 truck vs the Opel Blitz?
The German single-engined fighters in production were never really better than short-range interceptors. They could only dream of aircraft like the P-47, P-51, and Typhoon. We didn't send the B-29 to Europe as it was overkill. If Convair wasn't tied up with the B-32, a prototpye at least would be flying before VE day.
 

Skybolt

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Ummm, this thread starts to be unreadable....
 

Lauge

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hesham said:
Here is the sources for those aircraft and projects,and a quote
from the site;
http://myriad-subtle.blogspot.com/

Considering that the "source" also lists

Thule and Vril Gesellschafts
* Thule-Vril JFM "Jenseitsflugmaschine" (Other World Flight Machine) Germany's first disc aircraft, prototype, 1922-24
* Thule-Vril RFZ "Rundflugzeug" (Round Aircraft) Series
* RFZ-1, disc aircraft prototype 1937
* RFZ-2, "Fliegende HeissWasserFlashe" (Flying Hot Water Bottle) disc aircraft prototype 1937
* RFZ-3, disc aircraft prototype 1937
* RFZ-4, disc aircraft prototype 1938
* RFZ-5, disc aircraft, re-designated Haunebu I, 1939, 2 produced
* RFZ-6, disc aircraft prototype 1940
* RFZ-7, disc aircraft, re-designated Vril 1 Jager, 1941, several produced

Thule, SS Military Technical Branch E-IV
(all discs powered by Thule Triebwerk EMG engines)
* Thule H-Gerat Hauneburg Device, Haunebu I disc aircraft, 1939
* Thule Haunebu II disc aircraft 1942
* Thule Haunebu II Do-Stra disc aircraft co-produced by Dornier. Do-Stra= DOrnier STRatospharen flugzeug, 1944
* Thule Haunebu III disc aircraft, 1945
* Thule Haunebu IV disc aircraft project


etc., I would be extremely reluctant to accept the site as evidence that a particular project existed. :p

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg
 

Jemiba

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"Considering that the "source" also lists ....I would be extremely reluctant to accept the
site as evidence that a particular project existed."

Well, you're quite right Thomas ! Here I took Jareds name as an evidence, that it is more,
than just III-Reich phantasy. And I'm pretty sure, that I have seen it before, but cannot
tell where it was. Perhaps Jared can shed some light on it ?
That's the bad seed of such sites as "grey falcon" or others, that not only chimears often are
taken for granted, but that on the other side, useful information may seem to be dubious ! :mad:
 

hesham

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Very great site my dear Scott,

and also from the same site;
Focke-Achgelis Fa.224
Fieseler Fi.166 type I & II

http://web.archive.org/web/20041205001133/http://www.germanvtol.com/index.html
 

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hesham

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Thank you my dears Jemiba and Justo Miranda,

also the DFS.301 was unknown project and may be it was
related to development of DFS.346.
The Blohm und Voss P.175 parasite fighter project.

http://www.unicraft.biz/germ/bv175/bv175.htm
 

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blackkite

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Hi! Vertical tail stabilizer's area is smaller than cabin's area. I think it's very difficult to have directional inherent stability.
 

blackkite

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Wow thanks Justo! In Japan, designer who designed such a radical fighter would be send to Manshu(満州) or southern hard front. ;D
 

Jemiba

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blackkite said:
.. In Japan, designer who designed such a radical fighter would be send to Manshu(満州) or southern hard front. ;D

In Germany it was just the other way round: Designers, who didn't come up with new projects,
obviously had nothing to do in their design office, so they could be sent to the front. And if
there were no more realistic ideas left, well, then it still was better to draw up some weird "projects",
instead of fighting russian tanks with a "Panzerfaust" at the eastern front !

I don't know enough about the japanese use of engineering resources during the time of WW II, but
maybe it was more reasonable, than the german one ! ::)
 

blackkite

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I don't want to be a flight engineer of this beauty. ;D
 

redstar72

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Justo Miranda said:
Half of russian designers (Polikarpov included) were in prison in 1941 ::)

You are mistaken: Polikarpov actually was in prison once, but it was in 1930.

Some other Soviet designers (including Tupolev, his subordinates Petlyakov and Myasischev, Nieman from KhAI, and Bartini) were arrested in 1937-38, at the times of Yezhov's big terror. In 1941 most of them were released.

Bartini was not so lucky - he became free only in 1947. Maybe because he was Italian, and his native country was our enemy at war...
 

Tophe

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I think there is a misunderstanding about the wonderful asymmetric Henschel 122 above.
- The Henschel Hs 123 was an old biplane (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_123 ) so this is obviously a project Hs P.122 not a RLM Hs 122
- The Hs P.122 was a twin-jet symmetric plane project see http://www.unicraft.biz/germ/hs122/hs122.htm
- From the Unicraft model P.122 a great what-if modeler imagined a single-engined turboprop asymmetric derivative, see http://www.unicraft.biz/bigph1/hs122as-allen.htm . And it seems this one has been taken as very truth by the author of this book, that would be wrong.
No? (I love ;D what-if planes even more than serious ones but I know most visitors here have a different preference)
 

Flitzer

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Tophe said:
I think there is a misunderstanding about the wonderful asymmetric Henschel 122 above.
- The Henschel Hs 123 was an old biplane (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henschel_Hs_123 ) so this is obviously a project Hs P.122 not a RLM Hs 122
- The Hs P.122 was a twin-jet symmetric plane project see http://www.unicraft.biz/germ/hs122/hs122.htm
- From the Unicraft model P.122 a great what-if modeler imagined a single-engined turboprop asymmetric derivative, see http://www.unicraft.biz/bigph1/hs122as-allen.htm . And it seems this one has been taken as very truth by the author of this book, that would be wrong.
No? (I love ;D what-if plan
es even more than serious ones but I know most visitors here have a different preference)

With regard to the Hs P122 asymmetric turbo-prop. It was I, done quite a few years ago now. Making the model I mean.
I had a few spare kit bits knocking around, so with a bit of conferring with Igor at Unicraft and much inspiration from Tophe's work, I made this 'What-if' purely for fun.
It was never intended to be anything other than a pure 'What-if'.
Therefore the author of the book, these samples came from, obviously couldn't find any data for the Hs 122As because there is none and there never has been any.

I would never have imagined something done in such innocence would appear in a book. Infame at last? ;)
This is why I now label any profile-work as What-if when and where applicable.
Orionblamblam's words echo in my head even as I type.

Peter
 

Tophe

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Congratulations for this very beautiful model of yours, Flitzer, so wonderful ;D
If it was clearly what-if, there is nothing to regret, the author not checking made a mistake, that does not blame you, and I still clap my hands... ;D
 

RdsG46

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Tophe

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Answer from dear Lark:
"- First , story with the drawing is very unlikely.
An invasion across the Baltic and East Sea would
be a very risky undertaking.
Besides, the British armies advanced very well allong the NorthSea coast of WW II Germany.
They reached almost west Prussia before they 'met ' the Russian.
So , there could be not much a reason for the building of launching ramps against an
invasion force over sea.

- The use of 'V' for propaganda purposes is not dependable.
Only two are well documented V1 and V2. Sometimes an V3 is mentioned as the
experimental segmented long range gun.(England kanone or TausendFüssler) Multipede gun.
Vergeltungwaffe or Retaliation weapon 4 can be every thing.

- The drawing comes from vol III of Gerorg Friedrich book about German Wonderweapons.
Very well produced , expensive but not dependadable.To much speculation and suggestions
based on rumors. The books are promoted on Igor's site , were the drawings came from.

- There is a very good thread on the forum about the V4 and the Argus rohr-Argus tube.
Easy to find by your correspondent via the search function."


with the Search tool, I got http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,5258.0.html and its second page, thanks Lark.
 

RdsG46

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Thank you!


I don't know why I skipped the topic. I guess because I searched for a pulse jet powered V-4. And most search didn't came up with it, because the word "V4" can't be used as search word.
 

Michel Van

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nice Videos
except the last minute on third Video
wat show those rubbish Nazi UFO...
 

lark

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Indeed,pure phantasy exept perhaps for the Couzinet disc wing mockup and the Andreas Epp models...
 

Jemiba

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To bring René Couzinet even near the Nazis actually is impudent ! He denied collaboration with
the Vichy-French regime and emigrated to Brasil. And the RC-360 was a post-war design. although
first thoughts may have been older, of course.
Nevertheless, this picture show has some photos, that really seem to be rare and so very
interesting, let's regard this as an excuse ... ;)
 

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Stargazer2006

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Skybolt said:
Ummm, this thread starts to be unreadable....

And it was! These very long threads from the beginnings of the forum contain a lot of information tossed in with no rhyme or reason, and it's difficult to search for some projects in the search engine (don't forget RLM designations started with a two letter prefix and a space, and that just DOESN'T work as such in the search tool!).

Here's where it's at:
  • I have created a series of separate topics for all the "Various..." projects of each company. When a project or prototype has enough "flesh" to justify a separate topic, it gets one. Simple as that. The main topic will have links to all the separate ones.
  • I have begun tracking some one- or two-post isolated topics that could benefit from a merge at this stage.
  • I have consequently slimmed down the "Luftwaffe secret projects" and "German projects" from about 20 to 5 pages.
  • I have merged these two topics into one, which you have here.
Hope this helps! And if you find something that should be merged, please let me know and it will be done.
 
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