Various projects from pre-war and wartime Germany

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hesham

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A great of luftwaffe aircraft and projects were not known,just as:
Arado Ar-112 fighter.
Arado AR-496 twin fuselage aircraft.
Arado Ar-696 six fuselage six engined aircraft.
Focke-Wulf FW-119 attacker aircraft.
FW-140 heavy fighter.
FW-193 fighter.
FW-232 advanced fighter.
FW-500 heavy fighter.
FW-1900 twin boom fighter.
Henschel PJ600/67 fighter.
 

hesham

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I will complete,
Junkers EF-144 swept back jet fighter.
messerschmitt Me-164 transport aircraft rival to Siebel Si-204.
Me-284 twim boom fighter.
Me-464 fighter.
Siebel Si-304 fighter.
and anther mystrey of projects:Focke-Wulf P-149;P-195 and P-207,Gotha Go-271,
Gotha Go-300 and Gotha Go-3002 and Junkers Ju-294.
 

Tophe

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Very interesting...
What are your sources? (if this is serious)

(if this is jokes and enthusiast dreams, you are welcome as well)
A twin-boom what-if Fw 1900 is presented at http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=9928
A twin-boom what-if Me 274 is presented at http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=7166 and I would be happy to see the Me 284...
For the Ar 496, I may try to draw one or several among the Ar 96Z/196Z/296Z/396Z, imagining the 496 would be one of them...
 

Tophe

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I presented such an Ar 496 (as Ar 96Z= three months ago at http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=4626&st=320

A more serious source would be much welcome...
 

hesham

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dear Tophe,
I spend my time to sereach about unknown aircraft and projects,
a more than 5000 sites for aviation and modeling of aircraft,I swear
all of these projects I read about it,but I cann't remember the sites
and it is not from my dreams.
 

Tophe

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Dear, even if they do not come from your own dreams, they may come from dreams of other dreamers... ;D like the Fw1900 and Ar496 I mentioned above. ;) Then, another question is: apart of jokes and imagination of someone, have there been serious RLM project with these codes? :)
 

Meteorit

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Well, I would consider myself fairly knowledgeable of Lufwaffe aircraft projects, and I have to say I have never heard of most of these designs. Some of them (Me 164 and Si 304) could have something behind them, but the rest... For example Junkers wartime project numbering definitely stopped at EF 132 (the 140 and 150 were designed in the USSR), and whereas some RLM numbers were reserved for Junkers but not used up, the 294 is not among them, etc.

P.S. There is a very good listing of RLM numbers at http://www.designation-systems.net/non-us/germany.html :).
 

Jemiba

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Meteorit, you've probably just forgotten, that a lot of german designers and engineers
didn't stop working in May 1945. they just dug out a number of holes and proceeded
working under ground ;D
And because it was not very comfortable there, they drunk a lot of beer, salvaged from
the debris . That's the real reason behind the vast numbers of german projects !
 

Nick Sumner

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And because it was not very comfortable there, they drunk a lot of beer, salvaged from
the debris . That's the real reason behind the vast numbers of german projects !


Finally! A rational explanation of the German aircraft industry.

:D
 

hesham

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Sorry, I made a one mistake,that the Messerschmitt is BF-184
twin boom fighter consider a copy of American Lockheed P-38,
AND IT IS NOT Me-284.
 

Tophe

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Dear, it seems you are referring to a batch of Japanese dreams (pages 24 to 27 of my free E-book "The end of Forked Ghosts": Ar 112, Bf 184 + Ar197, Me 266, Go250.
They are fantasy dreams, as far as I know, and I love them, but this is not a strong basis to pretend these warbirds of the 1940s have been designed before 1990...
 

hesham

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Dear Tophe,
do you mean that all of aircraft and projects in Forked Ghosts are only a dreams ?.
 

ChuckAnderson

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Hi Everyone!!

You may also wish to check-out the Luft '46 website at:

http://www.luft46.com/

Chuck
 

Tophe

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hesham said:
Dear Tophe,
do you mean that all of aircraft and projects in Forked Ghosts are only a dreams ?.
In my Forked Ghosts web-page http://cmeunier.chez-alice.fr/index.htm a writing like Boeing/Nomura Twin-B-29 Twin-Fortress (fiction) means:
- this is a dream/fiction/what-if of the past made nowadays, not in 1939-45 actually
- this is pretented to be a Boeing design, while it came from Mr Nomura dreamer
In my last book "The end of Forked Ghosts" are different chapters for Historical truth, actually 1939-45, and for smiling dreams, pretended 1939-45.
OK? This is uneasy, as I have been educated in seriousness before turning towards dreams, I prefer dreams having killed no one. ;)
 

hesham

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In the magazine SCALE AVIATION MODELLER INTERNATIONAL
I found a lot of Luftwaffe projects,
in issue of April 1999 page No 301 : Focke-Wulf P.127 and P.207.
and I am asking are these a realy projects ?.
 

Tophe

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http://www.luft46.com/ (mentioned above) is a realistic source, refusing what-if dreams of nowadays, but only the projects with available 3-view drawings are presented.
In the (also very serious) Putnam Book "German Aircraft of the Second World War", the projects Blohm und Voss P.127 and P.207 are actually mentioned, with several dozens of other ones. Maybe they are illustrated somewhere, and maybe such illustration is not "provisional" (what-if aspect)...
Nothing is simple.
 

hesham

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other two projects in the same magazine(SCALE AVIATION MODELLER
INTERNATIONAL):
1-in issue July 1999 page 574, Focke-Wulf FW-78.
2-in issue November 1999 page 801, Messerschmitt Me-253.
 

lark

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Dear Hesham,

The RLM number 78 was not allocated.
(76/77/79/80 and 81 reserved for Arado.)
RLM number 253 went to Fieseler and not to Messerschmitt.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Hesham, please realise that modelling magazines are not the best source of factual information on unbuilt projects.
 

hesham

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Dear Meteorit,

sorry for my late, the Siebel Si-304 fighter-bomber is in the same site you
mention and I give you anther aircraft the Siebel Si-308 ,
and I will sereach in the book what is it.
 

hesham

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Hi Meteorit,

all I want to know that there is a lot of Luftwaffe projects we don't know it,
and in the same site you mention the Focke-Wulf projects P.195 (not BV design)
which became FW-249 Eight engine heavy transport aircraft,
that means there were a series of projects and aircraft
propably from number 1 or 100 to 195.
 

Meteorit

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Unlike the other German aircraft manufacturers, Focke-Wulf didn't use a consistent P.XXX/EF.XXX/E.XXX numbering system. Designations like Fw 249 were created post-war by aviation writers and should not be considered official RLM ones. (I have not had the courage to challenge Andreas about this matter so far. ;) ) In general Focke-Wulf projects should probably be referred to as 'FW Eight-Engined Heavy Transport', 'FW fighter with one As 413', etc. Designations like 'P.03-10-251-22' are drawing numbers, of which one design can have several. Unfortunately many books still treat them as project numbers.
 

Meteorit

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Andreas Parsch said:
*LOL* ::)!

Anyway, I'd appreciate if you could clean up the mess of "FW-xxx" designations a bit. My selection of reference sources on the subject is far from complete, and contains conflicting information, especially on the subject of 8-series numbers (just for the record, I have FW-249 noted as "non-RLM" ;)). There are quite a few FW numbers in my list, which seem a bit doubtful, and I'd love to see some of them confirmed or rejected.

Well, more than lack of courage, I haven't brought up this issue because I don't have any really concrete evidence about it. Also, this far I haven't considered it that important.

I can't remember offhand where the FW RLM-type project designations were discredited (or if it was done as bluntly as I wrote :-X), however for example Lufwaffe Secret Projects: Bombers claims Fw 195 and Fw 261 as Focke-Wulf internal designations. Also, most of these designations don't appear, or appear only as 'Project (Details unknown)', in German Aircraft of the Second World War by Smith & Kay. I'm also sceptical because these numbers are attributed to designs that had no hope of being built (heavy bombers) or even were losers in competitions where even the winners didn't receive RLM numbers (night fighters).

If you like, I can list the designations I find the most dubious based on my sources.

I would also like you to try to reduce the number of different colours in the list. :) I think it resembles too much an American christmas tree at a few points. ;)
 

Andreas Parsch

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Meteorit said:
If you like, I can list the designations I find the most dubious based on my sources.

That would be great. Thanks in advance!

I would also like you to try to reduce the number of different colours in the list. :) I think it resembles too much an American christmas tree at a few points. ;)

;D! Oh, I like Christmas trees - maybe I should add a few animated GIFs with burning candles here and there ;)? No, sorry, I think for the time being, the colors will stay. A good way to distinguish the doubtful or semi-valid entries at first glance.
 

Meteorit

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Andreas Parsch said:
;D! Oh, I like Christmas trees - maybe I should add a few animated GIFs with burning candles here and there ;)? No, sorry, I think for the time being, the colors will stay. A good way to distinguish the doubtful or semi-valid entries at first glance.

I'm not against the use of colours itself, I just think there are too many different colours used what makes reading the list somewhat confusing IMHO. What exactly is the difference between red/blue/purple and orange/light brown? But, its your list, so do as you see fit. :)

I went through the numbers from 8-100 up. Based on my memory and the sources mentioned below, I listed 'questionable' and 'somewhat questionable' entries. Particulary the numbers from the USAAF Air Materiel Command list are suspicious. For example, I don't think I've ever heard of a Heinkel four-engined turboprop bomber. Does the list give any more information than the number assignments?
Sources:
1 Lufwaffe Secret Projects: Fighters
2 Lufwaffe Secret Projects: Bombers
3 German Aircraft of the Second World War
4 Jet Planes of the Third Reich, The Secret Projects, vols 1 & 2

questionable:
Ju 147 not mentioned in any sources
Do 235 not mentioned in any sources
Fw 238 internal designation
Fw 239 internal designation
Fw 249 internal designation
Fw 250 internal designation
Fw 251 internal designation
Fw 261 internal designation
Ho 267 not mentioned in any sources
He 278 not mentioned in any sources
Me 362 probably nonexistent project (4) (jet airliner!), possibly number allocated to Me
Me 462 internal designation
DFS 468 not mentioned in any sources

somewhat questionable:
(Do 200 shouldn't this be be in green?)
Fw 226 conflicts with two other projects, not close to production
Ar 239 probably reserved for Arado, tie-up with actual project dubious?
Fw 252 internal designation?
Fw 272 probably internal designation, not close to production
He 275 tie-up with actual project dubious
Fw 281 tie-up with actual project dubious, not close to production
Si 304 not mentioned in any sources
Fw 325 (3) lists this as Focke-Achgelis with no details
Me 364 possibly internal designation
Ju 452 dubious
He 519 existence of such aircraft dubious
 

hesham

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Hi every body,
I found in my old notebook about the Arado AR.112 from internet (but I
forget to record the name of the site)that:
when Heinkel He-112 falled , the Arado designers want to develope the design
with more powerful engine and some of improvments on the frame and supplied
it to Luftwaffe but again the project rejected.

I don't know it is a dreams from the wrighter or not and I am why 112 number ?.
 

Andreas Parsch

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Meteorit said:
I'm not against the use of colours itself, I just think there are too many different colours used what makes reading the list somewhat confusing IMHO. What exactly is the difference between red/blue/purple and orange/light brown? But, its your list, so do as you see fit. :)

I see your point with the purple - I replaced it with red. Blue are duplications, which can not be easily explained with old (pre-1930) numbers.. Orange is explictly reserved for the really questionable entries in the USAAF list. Brown is simply a catch-all for those numbers which are found in one or more sources, but which were most likely no GL/C numbers.

I went through the numbers from 8-100 up. Based on my memory and the sources mentioned below, I listed 'questionable' and 'somewhat questionable' entries. Particulary the numbers from the USAAF Air Materiel Command list are suspicious. For example, I don't think I've ever heard of a Heinkel four-engined turboprop bomber. Does the list give any more information than the number assignments?

No, it doesn't. And I agree that some of the entries (the orange ones ;)) are very dubious.

Anyway, thanks for your list, here are my comments ...

Sources:
1 Lufwaffe Secret Projects: Fighters
2 Lufwaffe Secret Projects: Bombers
3 German Aircraft of the Second World War
4 Jet Planes of the Third Reich, The Secret Projects, vols 1 & 2

questionable:
Ju 147 not mentioned in any sources
Do 235 not mentioned in any sources
Ho 267 not mentioned in any sources
He 278 not mentioned in any sources
Agreed.
Fw 238 internal designation
Fw 239 internal designation
Fw 249 internal designation
Fw 250 internal designation
Fw 251 internal designation
Fw 261 internal designation
Agreed, and now noted as such.
Fw 250 internal designation
Source (4) explictily mentions this as a GL/C number.
Me 362 probably nonexistent project (4) (jet airliner!), possibly number allocated to Me
Me 462 internal designation
Noted as such.
DFS 468 not mentioned in any sources
I can't remember right now where I found this one :-\!

somewhat questionable:
(Do 200 shouldn't this be be in green?)
No, because 200 was not the original model number.
Fw 226 conflicts with two other projects, not close to production
Fw 252 internal designation?
See Fw 250 above.
Ar 239 probably reserved for Arado, tie-up with actual project dubious?
Ju 452 dubious
Noted as questionable.
Fw 272 probably internal designation, not close to production
Fw 281 tie-up with actual project dubious, not close to production
Now noted as unconfirmed.
He 275 tie-up with actual project dubious
Si 304 not mentioned in any sources
Fw 325 (3) lists this as Focke-Achgelis with no details
Me 364 possibly internal designation
He 519 existence of such aircraft dubious
I'll have to look into these, especially the 325 issue (possibly just a misread on my side).
 

Andreas Parsch

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Here are more comments on the remaining issues ...

He 275 tie-up with actual project dubious
Ok, now noted as such.

Si 304 not mentioned in any sources
Ok, deleted from the list. (I couldn't find my original reference again :eek:)

Fw 325 (3) lists this as Focke-Achgelis with no details
Now I know again, why I rejected the Fa 325. There are a few online references to Fa 325, but they all describe it as "Autogiro with a DFS 230 fuselage and a three-bladed rotor". However, this is actually the description of the Fa 225! So I dismissed Fa 325 as a simple typo. Anyway, I added an explaining note to the 8-325 entry in my list.

Me 364 possibly internal designation
Ok, now noted as such.

He 519 existence of such aircraft dubious
Why is this more dubious than the many other unbuilt projects of the 1944/45 time frame?
 

Meteorit

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Andreas Parsch said:
No, it doesn't. And I agree that some of the entries (the orange ones ;)) are very dubious.

In that case I would seriously consider dropping those designations, unless references to them or descriptions of fitting projects can be found in other sources.

Source (4) explictily mentions this as a GL/C number.

Whoops...Sorry, my bad.
As for Fw 226 and Fw 252, I still stick to my original opinion. :)

Why is this more dubious than the many other unbuilt projects of the 1944/45 time frame?

First of all, I have never seen any through descriptions of it, only that it was to be a derivative of He 119 from 1944. Now this alone should raise a load of questions. (For example the He 119 was somewhat outdated by 1944.) Most importantly, IIRC, this issue was discussed at the Luftwaffe-Experten forum where the conclusion was that such a project most probably didn't exist. Unfortunately the forums were hacked last year and all previous topics have not been restored.
 

hesham

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OKEY smurf,

do you know Messerschmitt P.1116 ,which had a bat wing ?.
I give you anther projects:
Gotha P.57 glide bomb.
Gotha Go.271 which I mention it before ,it was a bat wing fighter.
 

hesham

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Hi,

anther projects to Luftwaffe,but I think two from them are fiction:
Blohm-Voss P.224 single seat fighter,DFS-25 assault glider,Dornier P-A four engined bomber,
He-1000 single seat fighter,He-260 research aircraft and Rohrbach Cyclogyro pedal wing aircraft.
 

Jemiba

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"Someone above said that the whole Luft 46 is here to prove that the German won the
tech war "

Not to be misunderstood, I didn't want to offend the makers of Luft'46, which I think is
a good site about quite a difficult theme.
There were a vast number of german projects, that's probably true, but we just heard
the story about the Re.2007, and I really think, we should always bear this in mind as
a warning, when we are talking about german projects. And, especially during the closing
days of WWII every man, who had the chance to work in a design office, was lucky. The
alternative could have been sitting in a trench at the front ... That probably stimulated the
phantasy of many designers, although they knew for shure, that their brainchilds would
never even come near any form of realisation !
And then there was a lot of propaganda, to motivate the people for an even longer war,
with the promise of "Wunderwaffen" (wonder weapons), that would turn the tide. I can
imagine, that some weird projects were not more than propaganda, to assure the people,
who were more or less living in the airraid shelters, that the fighter aircraft, that would
sweep the skies from allied bombers were just around the corner.
A difficult theme, we should keep a good deal of scepticism, I think.
 

richard

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Hi Hesham
Albatros merged with Focke-Wulf in 1931
-L 102 was a training high wing monoplane built by Albatros ,then by Focke Wulf
-L 102 W was the same with two floats
Both became later FW 55 and FW55see
-L 103 Experimental high wing monoplane for DVL for stability rechearch
-S 39 High wing recco aircraft 1931
-S48 project only Low wing trainer
-Never heard of Fw 197 ;could be Fw 187 or Fw 191 ?
Look at "luftarchiv " and "histaviation" sites ... I am sure you 'll enjoy!
Richard
 

hesham

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My dears,

there were also FW-190 fitted with a turbojet engine in 1941,
also little known aircraft and projects:
Junkers Ju-267,Heinkel He-33,He-41 and Henschel GT-1200.
 

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Maybe the Henschel GT-1200 falls into the category "missile/Guided weapon" ?
 

lark

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'Think there's a litle problem with these designations hesham..
267 not allocated in the RLM list
He-33 non existing , read instead Ju(W)33
41 not allocated in the RLM list
Henschel GT-1200 non existing...
Maybe your sources are not dependable...

Source ; Die Deutschen Flugzeuge 1933-1945 : Kens /Nowarra
Lehmans Verlag.München
 
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richard

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HI ,lark
-The Fw 190 with jet was only a project and not for a long time...
-I know a Heinkel HD 33 biplane,one 660 hp BMW VI ,1925.
-The Heinkel HD 41 biplane too ,1929 ,D-1694 BMW VIU inline and D-1795 with various radials
-For me ,no Ju 267 .look for Ju 287 or Ju 268 .
-Henschel GT 1200 :Air to underwater missile built at the end of the war
The RLM list is of little help for the twenties and early thirties for it begins at 1933
Richard
 

hesham

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Thanks my dear lark,

and there are also last three projects in the same site
to Flettner :
http://www.mda.org.uk/aircraft/7405.htm
 

hesham

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Hi,

we speak enough in the Luftwaffe projects topic,but I still have unknown projects
and aircraft,not for Luftwaffe only but it was also before 1933,so I open this topic
to refresh the subject.
in Internet I found some projects and I hope we can identify them,for example
Casper SJ was a floatplane fighter project,
did you know Messerschmitt Me.165,Me.320 and Me.368 ?.
 
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