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V-601 - Vought's MiGs

boxkite

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This seems to be published in one of the "Jane's Aviation Review". Any comments on the background of 'Vought's MiGs'?
 

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overscan (PaulMM)

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I have some vague recollection of a plan for Vought to build MiG-21s? Possibly as Aggressors?
 

Antonio

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Building MiGs in the USA :eek:, this should be a bit expensive. For the Agressor role only a few dozens would be required.
I think this drawings could be connected to intel/development of foreing technology.
Look at this:

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,588.0.html

The Vought Mig-29 is similar to this RAM-L posted by Deino while the V-6ZZ is similar to Vought's advanced fighter configurations studied in the 80's for US Fighter programs (Advanced VTOL and ATF)

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,275.30.html

Maybe Evan's opinion could be very informative here ;)
 

hs1216

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pometablava said:
Building MiGs in the USA :eek:, this should be a bit expensive. For the Agressor role only a few dozens would be required.
I think this drawings could be connected to intel/development of foreing technology.
Look at this:

Building your own MiG’s for aggressor training doesn’t make any sense, especially if you already have sources to procure the aircraft. From the looks of the incorrectly drawn MiG 29 this document comes from the early 80’s, at that point and time the US could acquire Mig-21 from Pakistan, Egypt, and China. Also the United States did eventually receive ex-Egyptian Mig-23’s. Basically it’s a waste of time and money.
 

LowObservable

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That V-6YY/RAM-L was based on drawings in the E European press, which were in turn based on drawings in a UK publication, which in turn were based on sketches in AvWeek. The problem was that all anyone had to go on to begin with were plan views...
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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LowObservable: can you shed any light on what these Vought projects were about?

I'm sure it was connected with a plan to low-rate manufacture copies of clandestinely obtained aircraft for aggressor use, around the time when the Kfir was bought as F-21. Can't recall where I might have read that though.
 

LowObservable

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I remember something about that idea. This is clearly early 1980s - the final configuration actually looks like some Vought Tandem-Fan STOVL projects of the time.
 

Archibald

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I remember something on the subject (not many alas!)
In science&Vie Aviation 1987, when talking about the Kfir, they mentionned the F-21A. This was the name gave to the Marines agressor... and they said that it win against "la proposition de la firme vought : un MiG-21 avec radar et moteur d'outre alantique"
("a proposal of vought for a MiG with radar and engine from the USA")

Don't know more!
 

frank

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ISTR reading somewhere, maybe in another group or list, that there was a rumor that the MiG-15 was actually a Vought design. Maybe it has ties to this.
 

TinWing

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overscan said:
I'm sure it was connected with a plan to low-rate manufacture copies of clandestinely obtained aircraft for aggressor use, around the time when the Kfir was bought as F-21. Can't recall where I might have read that though.

Just how useful would reverse engineered MiG-21 and MiG-23 aircraft have been for "aggressor use?" By the beginning of the 1980s, it was very clear that both earlier types were fatally flawed and any real threat came from Ram-L and Ram-K. Incidentally, the drawing makes it clear that the true appearance and designation of MiG-29 (Ram-L) was still either unknown, or classified, at the time of the publication.

In any event, the Chinese would have been more than willing to supply J-7 fighters in the quantities neccessary? Why tool up to build an obsolete MiG-21 when you can there is a production line in a low labor cost country?

Similarly, the MiG-23 was very familiar after the Egyptians turned most of their inventory over to the USA and China. Some might even argue that after the one sided slaughter of Syrian MiG-23s over Lebanon in 1982, which the Egyptian MiG-23 turnover might have aided, however indirectly, the type had lost all credibility as a threat both in the Western world and in China.

Perhaps this represents a design study that merely attempted to predict the future capabilities of yet-to-be deployed Soviet fighters?
 

Antonio

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there was a rumor that the MiG-15 was actually a Vought design
:eek: :eek:

I have also read about it was based on the Focke Wulf Ta-183...
 

Matej

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Caution! This sounds to me like standard thread "F-15 must be a copy of MiG-25, because it looks the same". All aviation nearly all around the (modern) world was influenced by nazi Germany research.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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Tinwing, no. It was definitely a proposal to equip MiG-21 airframes with US engine and other equipment. This is the only part which was studied in detail. It is possible that they were going to buy J-7 airframes and requip them- I can't remember the exact details. After all, the picture shows a MiG-21F-13/J-7 type rather than a MiG-21Bis.
 

Archibald

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maybe it's stupid but... what american engine could have been fitted in a MiG-21 rear fuselage ? a F-404 ? an older engine such as J-79 ?
 

hs1216

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Actually I think that would be possible. The Israeli's managed to fit a Mirage 3 with a J-79. And a Mirage 3 and Mig-21 have similar dimensions and weights. So it might be possible to fit a Mig-21 with a J-79. Haven't there been various proposals to fit a Mig-21/J-7 with more modern engines like the F-404 and RD-33?
 

Archibald

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I suppose the radar would be something similar to an APQ-159... hell, the radar of a MiG-21 was not particularly brilliant...
 

Archibald

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Trouble is, the J-52 never received reheat (to my humble knowledge). Developing an afterburning J-52 only for a small of MiGs , ???
 

elmayerle

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Archibald said:
Trouble is, the J-52 never received reheat (to my humble knowledge). Developing an afterburning J-52 only for a small of MiGs , ???

Considering that an afterburning J52 was one of the engines considered for one of the FC-1s predecessor designs, I don't think it too outlandish, esp. since there was an afterburning version of its turbofan cousin. For a MiG-21 'clone', a J79 makes a lot of sense since it's much the same type of engine as the MiG-21 uses, a single-spool turbojet, and thrust ratings are similar.
 

hs1216

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While I think it would be possible to fit a mig-21 with a J-79 engine, it still would hard. It would make more sense to fit a more modern F-404.
 

Kim Margosein

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How about this:

I will grant that the US could obtain sufficient MiG-21s and 23s to establish whatever agressor squadrons they wanted. However, maintaining them is another thing. Could these Vought project numbers be for a Vought bid to maintain them and replace Soviet parts such as brakes, ejection seats, and such so the pilots would not need to borrow diapers from NASA? Vought would probably want a project number for bookkeeping purposes, as would the USAF.

By this same token, with experience gained by Vought from handling the MiGs, they would be in a better shape to interpret data obtained on the Ram L and Ram K aircraft. Perhaps they would even do some paper reverse engineering, and perhaps reverse engineering portions of the aircraft. Again, this would probably call for a project number for bookkeeping and contract purposes.
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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I read the original article yesterday in Janes Aviation Review. I was correct; it was about Aggressor aircraft, and the plan was to build copies of MiG airframes with US avionics. The dates are when US Intelligence predicted the availability of the airframe, and the last picture is a theoretical MiG-29 follow-on.
 

Grey Havoc

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Pity there isn't any information available about the proposed avionics and powerplant fits.
 

Stargazer2006

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Wow! That's what I call digging up a topic! And I'm glad you did too, because I'd never heard of those Vought MiGs before... ;)
 

archipeppe

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Stargazer2006 said:
Wow! That's what I call digging up a topic! And I'm glad you did too, because I'd never heard of those Vought MiGs before... ;)

Mee too, but I also agree with who think that should have been a waste of money.

What sense could have small-series illegal copies of a bunch of not-so-new soviet aircrafts when you have to fill them with engines and western avionics and use them only for training purposes???
Furthermore what is the sense to produce a soviet aircraft copy based on wrong or incomplete data set (yes I'm thinking about the misleaded RAM-L configuration of the early MiG-29).
 

Grey Havoc

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archipeppe said:
Stargazer2006 said:
Wow! That's what I call digging up a topic! And I'm glad you did too, because I'd never heard of those Vought MiGs before... ;)

Mee too, but I also agree with who think that should have been a waste of money.

What sense could have small-series illegal copies of a bunch of not-so-new soviet aircrafts when you have to fill them with engines and western avionics and use them only for training purposes???
Furthermore what is the sense to produce a soviet aircraft copy based on wrong or incomplete data set (yes I'm thinking about the misleaded RAM-L configuration of the early MiG-29).

Thanks. Perhaps I should rename myself 'Necromancer'? :)

As to the long term cost effectiveness of such a project, I'm not sure I'd agree with you archipeppe that it wouldn't have made sense. Apart from the already noted issue of sourcing spare parts for the original airframes and systems, there would have been (apart from possibly the MiG-23) only a finite number of airframes available for dissimilar air combat training and ongoing test and evaluation purposes, not to mention other, shall we say spookier missions. Demand definitely outweighed supply. Measures such as refitting acquired Soviet airframes with compatible western parts and systems wouldn't have solved the overall problem.

As for wrong or incomplete data sets, the project seems to have been primarily intended produce copies of MiG designs that the USAF already had examples of or else very detailed design data on (e.g. MiG-25).

I would love to know if Vought had ever completed, or at least started to build any proof of concept aircraft or other prototype.
 

Stargazer2006

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archipeppe said:
What sense could have small-series illegal copies of a bunch of not-so-new soviet aircrafts when you have to fill them with engines and western avionics and use them only for training purposes???

I'm thinking of something: decoys. Fly them in enemy colors over unfriendly lines, as a sort of camouflage or as Trojan Horses. Don't know if that would work in any war context, but that's certainly a possible use for them. Has any research on the subject been done before? Any plans in the past to do that?
 

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Stargazer, IIRC there were reports of rebuilt captured B-17s used by the Germans to stalk bomber formations.
 

Bill S

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V-601 was an "Americanized" MiG-21 for Naval Adversary Aircraft

Proposal was for 24 new aircraft deliveries on a similar delivery schedule to the original F-16N and TF -16N aircraft (1986-89). The aircraft would be crated and shipped to Vought for modification and reassembly.

1983 proposal included: Structural work to support new avionics and ejection seat.
Adding UHF, IFF, VHT, TACAN, ILS, Intercom, New altimeter, standby gyro, ADI, Fire warning system in engine bay, airspeed indicator, EGT system, Oxygen regulator and seat pan disconnect, Clock, Escape system, Fuel shutoff system, 28 VDC to 155 VAC inverters, Nicad batteries and charging system. Wiring for TACTS pod.
A year later the proposal added: Radar with look-down capability, INS, second VHF, Com control system, Improved TACAN, Crash recorder/beacon, Load/strain recorder, Chaff/flare dispenser, Arresting gear system, provisions for a RHAW system.
Additional changes at a later date: deleted VHF radio, deleted ILS system, retain the original crew escape system.
 

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archipeppe

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royabulgaf said:
Stargazer, IIRC there were reports of rebuilt captured B-17s used by the Germans to stalk bomber formations.

Yep by Kg-200.
 

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Bill S said:
V-601 was an "Americanized" MiG-21 for Naval Adversary Aircraft.....

Thanks Bill!

archipeppe said:
royabulgaf said:
Stargazer, IIRC there were reports of rebuilt captured B-17s used by the Germans to stalk bomber formations.

Yep by Kg-200.

KG-200 were very busy little beavers indeed.
 

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Wasn't Vought working on the mig-21 based Super 7 with the chinese around the same time?
 

Mark Nankivil

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And here's a pic of the display model to go along with Yildirim mentioned. To go along with what Bill posted, the display base says "Navy Supersonic Adversary Aircraft"

Enjoy the Day! Mark
 

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Apophenia

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Yildirim said:
Wasn't Vought working on the mig-21 based Super 7 with the chinese around the same time?

Super 7 was a Grumman project (abandoned before Northrop Grumman's current control over Vought, IIRC).
 

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Perhaps someone here has better info. I remember reading back in the late '70s that the Soviets had plans in the latter '60s to reverse engineer the McDonnell F-4 for production in the USSR. Anyone know more?
 

overscan (PaulMM)

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I don't believe there was ever an intention to copy the F-4 in its entirety - the technologies from it were thoroughly plundered, however. The last fighter considered for copying was the F-86.
 

frank

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I forgot about that. Wasn't that going to be Sukhoi's project?


overscan said:
I don't believe there was ever an intention to copy the F-4 in its entirety - the technologies from it were thoroughly plundered, however. The last fighter considered for copying was the F-86.
 

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