US Bombers

Antonio

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Source:
http://www.mozeyoninn.com/Ginter/AIRFORCE/AFL201.htm
Air Force Legends. Martin XB-51 by Scott Libis

In 1946, the USAAF solicited a new ground support aircraft to replace the A-26.
Martin submitted the Model 234 with two turboprops and two turbojets. Crew: 6. Weight: 70,000 pounds. Capable of carrying 8,000 pounds of ordenance 800 miles.
Model 234 won the competition and was designated XA-45. However the A-26 replacement was reclassified as a bomber so the Model 234 was redesignated XB-51.
The reclassification led to new requirements. USAAF asked for 640 mph top speed and Martin a new design (the XB-51 almost everybody knows)

My questions are:

Any information about Model 234 rival designs

I have heard from Lark that existed an attack variant of Curtiss Model 29A (XP-87 Blackhawk). Was this design in the A-26 replacement competition?

Which is Martin's Model Number for the second XB-51
 

lark

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the Martin design number - 234 - remained the same for the
complete development period from the XA-45 to the XB-51.

A few weeks after Martin won the XA-43 contract , the AirForce
reviewed the Attack series and all close support and attack designs
became Bomber aircraft.
Martin started anew with a much more advanced design which
received the XB-51 designation.

Much of the XB-51 technology was later put into the stillborn
"SuperCanberra" design , a swept winged T-tailed development
of the B-57.
 

Antonio

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Some research I posted a couple of years ago in whatifmodelers forum. I hope it could be interesting for someone :)
 

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TinWing

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lark said:
Much of the XB-51 technology was later put into the stillborn
"SuperCanberra" design , a swept winged T-tailed development
of the B-57.

An American "Super Canberra?"

This is news to me.

I never figured out why a serious effort wasn't made to produce a swept wing Canberra? I can only suppose that the result would have been just as obsolete as the Vautour?
 

Skybolt

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Ok, so what is this and how it fits in the genealogy? To me the impression environment as a distinct "limuted war" air (Korea?): look and the bombs...
moreover
I can only suppose that the result would have been just as obsolete as the Vautour?
our French fellow members say that had the Vautour been upgraded with new engines, as already promised to Israel, this could have dispensed from buying the Phantom II in the strike role at least...
 

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elmayerle

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Skybolt said:
Ok, so what is this and how it fits in the genealogy? To me the impression environment as a distinct "limuted war" air (Korea?): look and the bombs...
moreover
I can only suppose that the result would have been just as obsolete as the Vautour?
our French fellow members say that had the Vautour been upgraded with new engines, as already promised to Israel, this could have dispensed from buying the Phantom II in the strike role at least...

You know, that looks like a USAF derivative of the P4M "Mercator" which the USN used as an ELINT & recce aircraft.
 

Pioneer

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An American "Super Canberra?"

This is news to me.

I never figured out why a serious effort wasn't made to produce a swept wing Canberra? I can only suppose that the result would have been just as obsolete as the Vautour?

Does anyone have any drawings or artist work for the proposed 'Super Canberra' ?
 

lark

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The Martin 268 model was a two engined trainer project.
(see designation systems-Andreas Parsch)
 

lark

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I send photocopies of what I have about the Super Canberra to my friend Pometabla...
(3-view and perspective drawing from - two sources)
If he haves a bit of time it will be to see here next week...
 

Skybolt

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Model 268, there is an obvious error in the list (not the only one): the trainer was 269.
Ok for the Mercator similarity, but the bombs? ???
 

frank

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IIRC, it was to be based on the 202 or 404. regarding the bombs, it was to be a bombardier trainer, IIRC.


Skybolt said:
Model 268, there is an obvious error in the list (not the only one): the trainer was 269.
Ok for the Mercator similarity, but the bombs? ???
 

Skybolt

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hmmm, a bombardier trainer... seems improbable to me. All armament training in done on machine for transition to operating machines, AFAIK, and is strictly related to specific types.
 

frank

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I'm pretty sure that's what I read in a Martin book.


Skybolt said:
hmmm, a bombardier trainer... seems improbable to me. All armament training in done on machine for transition to operating machines, AFAIK, and is strictly related to specific types.
 

lark

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The Martin 268 is also mentioned as a Twin engine trainer- USAF
in "Martin Aircraft 1909-1960" by John R.Breihan,Stan Piet
and Roger S.Mason - Narkiewicz//Thompson 1995.
The same illustration is also shown on page 207.
Family resemblance with 202/303/404 is evident...
 

elmayerle

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Skybolt said:
Model 268, there is an obvious error in the list (not the only one): the trainer was 269.
Ok for the Mercator similarity, but the bombs? ???

I'm not sure. I wonder if that's where the original Mercator was to carry sonobuoys or weapons?

PS. Actually, I'd prefer it be derived from the Mercator rather than the 202/404 series. That series had a few problems that leave me a bit leary of it.
 

Skybolt

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The Martin 268 is also mentioned as a Twin engine trainer- USAF
in "Martin Aircraft 1909-1960" by John R.Breihan,Stan Piet
and Roger S.Mason - Narkiewicz//Thompson 1995.
The same illustration is also shown on page 207.

Oh, yes I know, my picture comes from it :D
My point was that probably there was an inversoin in the list descriptions. It's not the first time this happens (Andreas ha already pointed it out). AND, anyway, if the 268 is really a two-engine trainer, what is the Martin 269?
 

lark

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for the record,

Source for the Super-Canberra:
"B-57 Canberra at War 1964-1972" Robert C.Mikesh
published by Ian Allan in 1980. U.K.
 

hesham

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Hallo,

do anyone have a drawing to Douglas D-1377 bomber ?.
 

Archibald

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Skybolt said:
Ok, so what is this and how it fits in the genealogy? To me the impression environment as a distinct "limuted war" air (Korea?): look and the bombs...
moreover
I can only suppose that the result would have been just as obsolete as the Vautour?

our French fellow members say that had the Vautour been upgraded with new engines, as already promised to Israel, this could have dispensed from buying the Phantom II in the strike role at least...



Well the Bucc was quite close to the Vautour and its career extended until 1994... who said mach0.95 low-alt bombers were obsoletes ? :p
aparently the Israelis prefered it to the canberra or B-57 in 1957 ::)
The same target (Luxor airfield) was attacked by RAF Canberras in 1956 and IDF Vautours in 1967. The results were quite different...

The Vautour upgraded for the israelis was named the Tsiklon. Here's the performances (from Jean Cuny)
 

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hesham

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Hi,

if there are no drawing to Douglas D-1377 bomber,please any more
informations about it.
 

hesham

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Hi,

I have a picture shows Boeing B-29 as a parasite bomber with
two Republic F-84D fighters,I don't know if USA had anther
parasite bombers,built or projected !.
 

sferrin

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hesham said:
Hi,

I have a picture shows Boeing B-29 as a parasite bomber with
two Republic F-84D fighters,I don't know if USA had anther
parasite bombers,built or projected !.

When I was a kid in the early 70's there was a book in our elementary school library that was old even then that had a picture of a delta winged bomber with 5 (I think) parisite fighter attached. On to the top of the tail, one on each wing tip and one at each trailing edge. It also had a picture of a supersonic bomberish looking plane with the forward fuselage seperating instead of ejection seats. It was also the first reference to the F-108 I'd ever seen. Have never seen either of those pictures again and don't remember the name of the book. :-[
 

Antonio

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When I was a kid in the early 70's there was a book in our elementary school library that was old even then that had a picture of a delta winged bomber with 5 (I think) parisite fighter attached. On to the top of the tail, one on each wing tip and one at each trailing edge

It is a Northrop project
 

sferrin

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Got a picture and I could tell you if it was the one I saw?
 

lark

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The delta winged atomic bomber was a 1956 concept
from Lee Ohlinger - Northrop.
The mother plane carried six fighters.
It was dubbed 'Poject Opossum'
 

Andreas Parsch

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lark said:
The delta winged atomic bomber was a 1956 concept
from Lee Ohlinger - Northrop.
The mother plane carried six fighters.
It was dubbed 'Poject Opossum'

-> http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4533/Plum%20Brook%20Part%201.pdf, p.4 (PDF page #16)
 

Antonio

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Thanks Andreas!

I also found my scan of the pic
 

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hesham

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Hi,

The Martin Model-286 was a Strategic Air Command (SAC) bomber,
any informations about it please.
 

Antonio

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Hesham this post should be on pre-1945 US Bomber :)
 

hesham

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Sorry for Martin;

I correct it and I am asking about informations of Martin-286 bomber project.
 

hesham

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Hi,

I discovered that the Douglas Model-1377 was hypersonic manned
rocket bomber project for the 1955 competition,the other contenders
were Bell,Convair,McDonnell,Northamerican and Republic.
Does any one know those proposals.
 

hesham

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Hi,

The Boeing 3 mach bomber with 6.000 mile range for
WS-110.


http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1958/1958%20-%200042.pdf
 

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hesham

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hesham said:
Hi,

I discovered that the Douglas Model-1377 was hypersonic manned
rocket bomber project for the 1955 competition,the other contenders
were Bell,Convair,McDonnell,North American and Republic.
Does any one know those proposals.

How we still don't know those contenders and this competition up to now ?.
 

blackkite

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Hi!
Douglas Model 1856 Six-Engined Jet Bomber
http://www.aviationmodels-online.com/Featured_model9/Big_Douglas_Bomber2.htm
"An in-house manufacturer’s model of a proposed six-engined jet bomber, dating from the early post-war years. Made of wood and sitting on a metal stand, the nameplate is inscribed with the word ‘secret’. The inner engine pods have side intakes and presumably contain the main undercarriage legs.
A very elegant looking aircraft – and with a 690 cm span, a very striking model - nothing is currently known about the project. The model is almost certainly unique. "
 

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