TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

red admiral said:
So if they need an open tender for this, that's basically just admitting that they don't currently have an engine for Phase II?
Click to expand...

No indigenous engine development is broken up into three phases;

First phase of the project was a feasibility study which TRMotor conducted with a third party (likely Ivchenko Progress) and completed.

Second phase of the project is a developmental study, where we will hopefully see a working prototype of the engine, if schedule hasn't changed we will see it in 2023 - Kale, TEI and TRMotor will be competing for the contract.

Third Phase of the project would be selecting main contractor to serially produce the engines - This will be further along in the timeline 2028 onwards.
 
Thanks. So this is competition for a research and development programme for a future engine.

Prototype / Engine bench testbed in 2023 seems pretty unlikely if they haven't launched the competition yet.
 
Progress in Metallurgy was noted in the development of the engine, aswell as single crystal super alloy for turbine blades. Development of INCONEL 718 and 321 stainless steel were nationalised.

INCONEL 718 Vacuum Induction Melting (VIM)
1637662229145.png

321 stainless steel - Vacuum Induction Melting (VIM) Electroslag Refining (ESR) and Vacuum Arc Remelting. (VAR)
1637662294871.png
 
Combat-Master said:
Progress in Metallurgy was noted in the development of the engine, aswell as single crystal super alloy for turbine blades. Development of INCONEL 718 and 321 stainless steel were nationalised.

INCONEL 718 Vacuum Induction Melting (VIM)
View attachment 668385

321 stainless steel - Vacuum Induction Melting (VIM) Electroslag Refining (ESR) and Vacuum Arc Remelting. (VAR)
View attachment 668386
Click to expand...
Are there any specs for the late batch indigenous engine?
 
ceccherini said:
Combat-Master said:
Progress in Metallurgy was noted in the development of the engine, aswell as single crystal super alloy for turbine blades. Development of INCONEL 718 and 321 stainless steel were nationalised.

INCONEL 718 Vacuum Induction Melting (VIM)
View attachment 668385

321 stainless steel - Vacuum Induction Melting (VIM) Electroslag Refining (ESR) and Vacuum Arc Remelting. (VAR)
View attachment 668386
Click to expand...
Are there any specs for the late batch indigenous engine?
Click to expand...

No, those specs haven't been shared publicly yet. We expect an engine around 30,000lbf thrust range.
 
Offices and partner countries;
1638876697314.png

Currently under construction, Turkish Aerospace Industries Large sub-sonic wind tunnel
1638876336342.png

- 2nd largest wind tunnel in Europe
- Single Axis 14.5MW Fan

Large Enclosed area - 6.4m x 4.8 @ 130m/s
Small Enclosed aread - 4.9m x 3.7m @ 180m/s
Open Area - 6.4m x 4.8m @ 107m/s
1638876395010.png
 
GTX said:
Combat-Master said:
Offices and partner countries;
View attachment 669251
Click to expand...
Are you implying that all those countries are partners in this program? That's a bit of a stretch I think.
Click to expand...
No, these are partner countires to TAI the company. However, as was disclosed in the presentation countries have offices in which TAI sends workloads to and the engineers in those offices work on. One of those is the TFX, only non-classified work is carried out by those offices abroad and is rectified/checked by the main design building in Turkey.

This may be a Turkish aircraft with high Turkish output, however there are a lot of ex-engineers involved from Eurofighter Programme and various US fighter programmes in which "older" engineers were made redundant infavour of keeping younger engineers.
 
jsport said:
https://www.defensenews.com/air/202...09.2021&utm_term=Editorial - Early Bird Brief
Click to expand...

A fitting quote from Wikipedia here:

Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: "Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no." It is named after Ian Betteridge, a British technology journalist who wrote about it in 2009, although the principle is much older.
Click to expand...

We'll see whether the principle holds. TFX by itself, as it stands, certainly can't be used as any kind of leverage at all. Much larger issues are at stake here.
 
Geo said:
jsport said:
https://www.defensenews.com/air/202...09.2021&utm_term=Editorial - Early Bird Brief
Click to expand...

"General Electric’s non-afterburning F118 engine is already produced in Turkey under license in Eskisehir Tusas Engine Industries, a government-controlled company."

REALLY???
Click to expand...

This author is synonymous for his BS, his surname is literally 'shit-tongue' "Bok-Dil"

-F110 is assembled in Turkey by TEI which is 49% owned by General Electric

https://tei.com.tr/en/projects/ait-mro/f110-engine
 
Maro.Kyo said:
Deino said:
I cannot find the Hürjet thread anymore??!!
Click to expand...
It's on the secret postwar aircraft projects section.. for some reason. Or was it there from the start? Anyways, I feel a lot of the threads on the Secret (Unbuilt) Projects section actually doesn't belong there.
Click to expand...
ive been trying to get some of the threads from those sections, moved to here since they are built or being built (to be fair, when those threads were created, they werent built yet)
but i need cooperation from the mods of that section
 
helmutkohl said:
ive been trying to get some of the threads from those sections, moved to here since they are built or being built (to be fair, when those threads were created, they werent built yet)
but i need cooperation from the mods of that section
Click to expand...
Fair enough, though I think something that is actively being planned to be built or is in the process of being built should be distinguished from something that has ultimately not been built. Anyways, thank you for your effort.

Now back to MMU.
 
"
Regarding the RFP, SSB DEMİR shared following information: “Our Request for Proposal (RFP) is different from the classic RFPs. It is actually a study to determine Turkey's domestic engine development capabilities. This RFP aims for potential players in Turkey's national jet engine journey to come together and create a roadmap where all the existing capabilities in Turkey regarding domestic engine production are on the table and create a strategy together. Since Turkey does not have a comprehensive history in this matter, we do not have many experienced engineers and designers. That is why we do not have the luxury of dividing the process into three or four parts, so we must combine our capabilities and work together in a coordinated manner. We have manufacturing capabilities, TEI has demonstrated significant manufacturing capabilities. Further material research and manufacturing techniques are being studied, but the RFP we mentioned is a new step in our national engine development process.”

"

https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/co...tf-x-engine-development-project-phase-ii-4881
 

Sciaky, Inc. to Deliver World’s Largest Metal Electron Beam DED 3D Printer, a Customized EBAM® 300 Series Additive Manufacturing System, to Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI)​


The EBAM machine is going to TAI’s Ankara, Turkey plant, where it will 3D print some of the largest titanium aerostructures in the industry. The machine’s work envelope stretches beyond 6 meters in length by 2 meters in width by 1.8 meters in height. Deposition rates will exceed 20 kg of metal per hour for many metal alloys. On top of the impressive technical specifications, this unique 3D printer can quickly switch over to an Electron Beam Welder (EBW) for large-scale welding applications. TAI will also have the advantage of combining EB welding and 3D printing functionality for applications that require both technologies.


https://www.sciaky.com/news/press-releases/238-ded-3d-printer-for-turkish-aerospace-indutries
 
GTX said:
I have seen those machines and visited Sciaky. It is impressive technology.
Click to expand...

I'm actually pretty surprised that US is okay to exporting such a machine which will be crucial in production of TFX. This machine is supposedly going to be used to make Titanium bulkheads for TFX.

In fact, US has been quite lenient in providing production and propulsion systems despite current political atmosphere.

TFX - GE F110 (Turkey is developing an engine, however it's high risk development may rely on US engines if development falters)
Hurjet - GE F404 (Turkey does not plan on developing an engine for Trainer aircraft)
 
Combat-Master said:
AI-9500F - 20,000lb class engine
View attachment 666431
Click to expand...
The SFC on that suggests a pure turbojet design, not a low bypass ratio turbofan, unless the tech level is lower than say original F404.

The AI-222 was designed from 1999. The afterburner technology had to be developed in-house as Russia wouldn't help them. Turkey might be interested in that I guess?

my guess, the 9500 is based on scaled-up AI-222 technology with a lower bypass ratio. Something in the 0.2 - 0.3:1 range.
 
Last edited:
1645441092520.png
In a recent interview, TAI CEO Temel Kotil confirmed a few aspects of the TFX;
- TFX will have Flank facing AESA radars located at the nose of the aircraft (see image above)
- TFX will have an separate engine cooling system on-board, which will cool the engines heat radiance to the frame and it's exhaust
- Pakistan Collaborating with Turkey on TFX programme

View: https://youtu.be/pSjHVpHf9x0?t=1083
 
^ if Pakistan is on-board I guess their interest in acquiring the FC-31 or J-20 (if either is even offered for export), has gone down
 
helmutkohl said:
^ if Pakistan is on-board I guess their interest in acquiring the FC-31 or J-20 (if either is even offered for export), has gone down
Click to expand...

Pakistan may still be interested in those chinese aircrafts, I don't think this dilutes those options. What I believe this indicates is that Pakistan may have shelved it's own fifth gen aircraft programme in favour of collaborating on TFX which has a better chance of becoming a reality.
 
With Pakistan involvement would that cause issues with western support, as Pakistan is essentially a vessel state to China?
 
Combat-Master said:
Pakistan may still be interested in those chinese aircrafts, I don't think this dilutes those options. What I believe this indicates is that Pakistan may have shelved it's own fifth gen aircraft programme in favour of collaborating on TFX which has a better chance of becoming a reality.
Click to expand...

A lot of people expressing interest in TFX, I guess it's a kind of an endorsement. Turkey, then, despite of economics woes (volatility of Turkish lira, etc.) does have choices in partners but on the other hand it is worrisome if different entities can just jump in (or out) on a whim.

Speaks to opportunism at the cost of strategic thought, an odd mix in such a long term and sensitive project. Pakistan's leadership seems to be a bit all over the place these days trying to hedge its bets; its many allegiances indeed come with high potential for compromise and chaos. Whether that can be withstood or in any way planned for is questionable - at this stage future export options should perhaps be a thing apart from ensuring that the project comes to fruition at all.

Given Russia's re-invasion of Ukraine and the instability stemming from that and the ostensible Ukrainian participation in TFX, Ukrainians might appreciate the possibility to migrate an even larger portion of their R&D, even production, on Turkish soil for the time being. Such an approach could garner a wider appreciation for its contribution to increased regional and geopolitical resilience than just mutual support between these two countries.

It's a complicated environment for sure, especially if Turkey is weighing sovereign capability against proposals of investment in terms of development speed.
 
Combat-Master said:
prof. Dr. İsmail DEMİR: "We have an alternative engine option for the National Combat Aircraft. Also, we had the possibility of working with Rolls-Royce company for the national engine. We had some concerns here, we resolved these concerns. The work has begun."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1500013599963725824
View: https://twitter.com/SavunmaSanayiST/status/1500013599963725824?s=20&t=w1odjbsYqS_2D-SukxM2yQ


Rolls-Royce/KALE Engine back on the Table.
View attachment 675130
Click to expand...

It will be good news if Rolls-Royce gets picked for the engine contract for the TFX National Combat Aircraft.
 

Similar threads

Back
Top Bottom