TAI TF-X / Milli Muharip Uçak MMU Kaan

[Maro.Kyo]

More interesting is the project timeline. It's more up to date and precise than what TUSAS revealed in 2018. Basically confirms what @coanda said a while ago : The first airframe to roll out in 2023 is more like a mock up, will probably only serve as basic structural testing mule as well as wind tunnel stuff. More importantly, it will match the celebration of Turkish Republic's centenary.

This was expected, since 2023 was only a year after the PDR and it never was going to be the case that CDR could be done by then. The actual CDR is around a year and a half after the "roll out" and the real roll out of an actual flight-ready EMD protoype is in 2025. This also follows the usual fighter jet devlopment timeline. F-22, F-35, KF-21 and so on, all had their EMD prototype roll out 7 years after the start of the EMD program. TF-X is following suit.

This clears up a lot of misunderstandings. A lot of people including myself thought the "roll out" in 2023 was going to be that of block 0 and argued its impossible. Turns out the Turkish engineers know themselves as well. Only if other Turkish folks on various forums were reasonable enough to acknowledge such fact would have been the conversation more pleasant.

Overall the timeline looks okay, but the testing is way too short imo. Realiatically speaking you're gonna need to add at least a year or two to their current testing period for it to be close to reality. Especially when the Turkish turbofan would only be flight ready by 2027 or so.

 

[Combat-Master]

Some subprojects of the TF-X Project;

1) Composite avionics chassis
Nanomaterial added composite avionics boxes will be used on TF-X

2) RAM Canopy and RAM coating of the canopy

3)Cognitive fighter behavior model
It will simulate the behavior of the fighter aircraft in simulations and lower the testing time.

4) LWIR Absorbing Paint
It will protect against IR guided missile
It will block EM waves that are created because of the friction in the heat-generating areas.

5) RAM Coating Modelling and Optimization
Electromagnetically modeling and optimization of radar absorbing multilayer thin film coating

6) Radar Absorbing Putty
It will be used between surface parts.

7)Nanomaterial added composites
Up to %60 increase in mechanical performance with the addition of graphene.
Next-generation structural parts that carry class 2 load
Resistant to lightning
Complies with LO

8) Production of big-sized structural parts with additive manufacturing

9)Methods of design optimization and aerodynamics
Ammunition drop and wing optimization
The adjoint method with SU2

10) Aerogel added, fire-resistant heat barrier

11) Production, welding, and gluing thermoplastic structural parts.

https://defencehub.live/threads/turkish-air-force-news-discussion.2740/post-91770

 

[Combat-Master]

Fan-made CGI, based off the 3D model TAI has on their website.

 

[Combat-Master]

Turkey’s Roketsan develops missile to replace Raytheon weapon​

Turkey’s state-controlled missile-maker Roketsan has developed a supersonic, anti-radiation missile for the TF-X, the country’s indigenous fighter jet in the making.

The missile, dubbed Akbaba (or “vulture” in English), was included in the ammunitions list of the TF-X at a Turkish Air Force briefing on June 30.

The Akbaba program is classified, and Roketsan’s website does not mention the technology.

“We cannot provide any information on the Akbaba project due to secrecy for national security reasons,” Roketsan told Defense News on July 8.

But a company official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said the Akbaba missiles will replace the batch of about 100 AGM-88 HARM missiles in the Air Force’s inventory.

https://www.defensenews.com/industr...+DFN&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social

 

[Combat-Master]

Turkey's DARPA 'SAGE' talks about Gokhan Ramjet Air-to-Air Missile development, with the envisagement of having it internally stowed on the TFX

View: https://youtu.be/nIo2u5XGKko?t=79

First phase 'Gokhan' Air-to-Air BVR missile will be integrated with F-16s and on second phase will be integrated internally with TFX

 

[stealthflanker]

The missile development is interesting. I wonder if Turkey interested in "unifying" the layout of the Ramjet AAM and the Anti radiation missile. As that will considerably shorten the research effort while at the same time capable of attaining long range.

Also @Combat-Master Sorry for asking but i wonder if you aware of any Turkey University hold a 5th generation fighter design competition. Just curious.

 

[Combat-Master]

The missile development is interesting. I wonder if Turkey interested in "unifying" the layout of the Ramjet AAM and the Anti radiation missile. As that will considerably shorten the research effort while at the same time capable of attaining long range.

Also @Combat-Master Sorry for asking but i wonder if you aware of any Turkey University hold a 5th generation fighter design competition. Just curious.

Hey, @stealthflanker I'm not aware of any 5th gen fighter design competition. However, there is multiple Industry-University cooperation for the development of materials, software etc for the TFX.

 

[Combat-Master]

https://www.livik.net/2021/09/16/digital-twin-studies-started-for-the-national-warplane/

 

[Trident]

Seems to have gained serrated nozzles on that CGI in the background.

 

[Combat-Master]

Not long left, 10 months from now we should be able to see a fully assembled TFX and rollout 8 months from there.

Also' SOM-J Cruise Missile which was initially developed to be integrated internally within F-35, is now being developed to be integrated internally within TFX.

 

[Deino]

Not long left, 10 months from now we should be able to see a fully assembled TFX and rollout 8 months from there.

10 months from now? that would be July 2022, I thought it should be ready only in 2023!

 

[TomcatViP]

10 + 8 months should push us through 2023

 

[Deino]

10 + 8 months should push us through 2023

But why should a fully assembled prototype be ready in 10 months and then wait another 8 for roll out?

Not that I don't think the first date is manageable anyway.

 

[Combat-Master]

10 + 8 months should push us through 2023

But why should a fully assembled prototype be ready in 10 months and then wait another 8 for roll out?

Not that I don't think the first date is manageable anyway.

I should have stated, it will be rolling out with its own power i.e Taxiing 18 months from now - which will be Turkey's centennial year and has great political importance.

 

[UpForce]

I should have stated, it will be rolling out with its own power i.e Taxiing 18 months from now - which will be Turkey's centennial year and has great political importance.

Well, we'll see, I'm not too enthusiastic about developing technologies to politically convenient occasions but perhaps this is just a case of events aligning anyhow. What I'm particularly interested about is the intended engine; are GE F110s available until a "domestic" option is ready?

Another viable alternative for such a tight schedule I could imagine is that TRMotor is the nominal "politically convenient" supplier but in reality much of the work (largely unseen) is being outsourced to Ukraine's Motor Sich*. These kinds of arrangements are not unheard of in defense procurement especially in this region (when it has come to other "sensitive issues" such as ballistic missile systems). Given that the sale of a controlling stake in Motor Sich to the Chinese fell through (which aligns to the wishes of the current U.S. presidential administration, but perhaps not so much the previous administration's due to the role of Erik Prince in pushing for the Skyrizon deal - it's complicated), this seems like an option. This in turn would open the door for the Turkish investment to fund and technologically enable an advanced Ukrainian domestic fighter as well, or perhaps for them to build their own version of TFX under license.

In such a case the Ukrainians should be convinced that Rostec et. al are not involved in any way. Given some earlier debacles I'm not sure that's possible but visibility into these things from the outside tends to be limited or at least lag behind the events. Interesting nonetheless.

-

* Edit: Or whatever combination of relevant Ukrainian firms, from Ukroboronprom down to Ivchenko-Progress etc., the structuring of these is somewhat byzantine to me.

 

[stimpy75]

i went to Teknofest 2021 on Tuesday with my big girl
https://photos.app.goo.gl/pge3qsNnWR95wdXk8
p.s. the grumpiness of her on some pics...well she wanted to sit in the cockpit of the Phantom and the Chinook, which wasn't allowed but she was happy when i told her that the Akıncı is remote controlled and i would get her one (not the real one)

 

[Combat-Master]

I should have stated, it will be rolling out with its own power i.e Taxiing 18 months from now - which will be Turkey's centennial year and has great political importance.

Well, we'll see, I'm not too enthusiastic about developing technologies to politically convenient occasions but perhaps this is just a case of events aligning anyhow. What I'm particularly interested about is the intended engine; are GE F110s available until a "domestic" option is ready?

Another viable alternative for such a tight schedule I could imagine is that TRMotor is the nominal "politically convenient" supplier but in reality much of the work (largely unseen) is being outsourced to Ukraine's Motor Sich*. These kinds of arrangements are not unheard of in defense procurement especially in this region (when it has come to other "sensitive issues" such as ballistic missile systems). Given that the sale of a controlling stake in Motor Sich to the Chinese fell through (which aligns to the wishes of the current U.S. presidential administration, but perhaps not so much the previous administration's due to the role of Erik Prince in pushing for the Skyrizon deal - it's complicated), this seems like an option. This in turn would open the door for the Turkish investment to fund and technologically enable an advanced Ukrainian domestic fighter as well, or perhaps for them to build their own version of TFX under license.

In such a case the Ukrainians should be convinced that Rostec et. al are not involved in any way. Given some earlier debacles I'm not sure that's possible but visibility into these things from the outside tends to be limited or at least lag behind the events. Interesting nonetheless.

-

* Edit: Or whatever combination of relevant Ukrainian firms, from Ukroboronprom down to Ivchenko-Progress etc., the structuring of these is somewhat byzantine to me.

It's not certain how many frames will be powered by F-110 engines, but it'll certainly be the one rolling the first prototype out of the hangars.

The domestic engine is being developed with a foreign company, it's not clear as to what country it is but rumour has it it's Russian.

 

[UpForce]

It's not certain how many frames will be powered by F-110 engines, but it'll certainly be the one rolling the first prototype out of the hangars.

The domestic engine is being developed with a foreign company, it's not clear as to what country it is but rumour has it it's Russian.

I guess we'll get some answers as to who the "silent" engine partner is if we ever get to know whether those F110s have been scavenged from existing airframes/stock or sold brand new to Turkey by GE. I don't expect a U.S. defense tech firm being in a hurry to support Russian efforts even though, given past events, the guidelines of dealing in such material have remained surprisingly lax

 

[Deino]

I should have stated, it will be rolling out with its own power i.e Taxiing 18 months from now - which will be Turkey's centennial year and has great political importance.

Well, we'll see, I'm not too enthusiastic about developing technologies to politically convenient occasions but perhaps this is just a case of events aligning anyhow. What I'm particularly interested about is the intended engine; are GE F110s available until a "domestic" option is ready?

Another viable alternative for such a tight schedule I could imagine is that TRMotor is the nominal "politically convenient" supplier but in reality much of the work (largely unseen) is being outsourced to Ukraine's Motor Sich*. These kinds of arrangements are not unheard of in defense procurement especially in this region (when it has come to other "sensitive issues" such as ballistic missile systems). Given that the sale of a controlling stake in Motor Sich to the Chinese fell through (which aligns to the wishes of the current U.S. presidential administration, but perhaps not so much the previous administration's due to the role of Erik Prince in pushing for the Skyrizon deal - it's complicated), this seems like an option. This in turn would open the door for the Turkish investment to fund and technologically enable an advanced Ukrainian domestic fighter as well, or perhaps for them to build their own version of TFX under license.

In such a case the Ukrainians should be convinced that Rostec et. al are not involved in any way. Given some earlier debacles I'm not sure that's possible but visibility into these things from the outside tends to be limited or at least lag behind the events. Interesting nonetheless.

-

* Edit: Or whatever combination of relevant Ukrainian firms, from Ukroboronprom down to Ivchenko-Progress etc., the structuring of these is somewhat byzantine to me.

It's not certain how many frames will be powered by F-110 engines, but it'll certainly be the one rolling the first prototype out of the hangars.

The domestic engine is being developed with a foreign company, it's not clear as to what country it is but rumour has it it's Russian.

Russia?!!

 

[Combat-Master]

It's not certain how many frames will be powered by F-110 engines, but it'll certainly be the one rolling the first prototype out of the hangars.

The domestic engine is being developed with a foreign company, it's not clear as to what country it is but rumour has it it's Russian.

I guess we'll get some answers as to who the "silent" engine partner is if we ever get to know whether those F110s have been scavenged from existing airframes/stock or sold brand new to Turkey by GE. I don't expect a U.S. defense tech firm being in a hurry to support Russian efforts even though, given past events, the guidelines of dealing in such material have remained surprisingly lax

That's another mystery, we don't know where F110 to power the first prototype will come from. Turkey could very well use spare F110 engines in its inventory.

Hurjet Jet Trainer, on the other hand, will be powered by F404-GE-102, Turkish Engine Industries (49% owned by GE) are negotiating for 40-50% industrial offset in producing the engines in Turkey.

The source in Turkish - https://www.defenceturkey.com/tr/ic...-40-50-sini-turkiye-de-uretmek-istiyoruz-4746

 

[Combat-Master]

I guess the rumours hold some truth;
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-russia-work-jet-engines-warships-submarines-erdogan

 

[Deino]

I guess the rumours hold some truth;
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-russia-work-jet-engines-warships-submarines-erdogan

I don't question these rumours, I only question if the Russian's could develop a true fifth generation engine in time and up to Turkey's expectations.

 

[Geo]

I guess the rumours hold some truth;
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-russia-work-jet-engines-warships-submarines-erdogan

I don't question these rumours, I only question if the Russian's could develop a true fifth generation engine in time and up to Turkey's expectations.

For me, the question is which engine - possibly - can serve as the basis of the future engine for TF-X. It is likely that Russian industry will push JSC Klimov into Turkish project. After all, Alexander Vatagin has already talked about such a possibility. Klimov has long been working on a "5th generation engine" with a projected thrust of "around 11 tons", but development is slow due to insufficient funding. Now the situation may change.

 

[Deino]

I guess the rumours hold some truth;
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-russia-work-jet-engines-warships-submarines-erdogan

I don't question these rumours, I only question if the Russian's could develop a true fifth generation engine in time and up to Turkey's expectations.

For me, the question is which engine - possibly - can serve as the basis of the future engine for TF-X. It is likely that Russian industry will push JSC Klimov into Turkish project. After all, Alexander Vatagin has already talked about such a possibility. Klimov has long been working on a "5th generation engine" with a projected thrust of "around 11 tons", but development is slow due to insufficient funding. Now the situation may change.

But for a fighter in the class of the TFX an engine in the 11t class is surely not sufficient and if Klimov can develop a new high-thrust powerplant soon enough is yet another question besides any technical issues.

 

[TMA1]

Izd 30 is soon to be released and it is a bleeding edge powerplant. That will probably not be shared. Now an 11 tonne engine by klimov... could it be the new RD-93MA being worked on for the block 3 jf-17? I dont doubt Russia's capabilities but I certainly doubt Russian/Turkish relations holding up.

 

[UpForce]

I don't question these rumours, I only question if the Russian's could develop a true fifth generation engine in time and up to Turkey's expectations.

I also question whether Russia really wants to develop a suitable engine in time and up to expectations. It's the cheapest kind of AA, not having adversary fighter jets at the ready in the first place, after all. They already effectively secured their front with Turkey in that regard with the S-400 stunt, no F-35s to be delivered, so what prevents Putin to keep stringing Erdogan along indefinitely now?

 

[Combat-Master]

I don't question these rumours, I only question if the Russian's could develop a true fifth generation engine in time and up to Turkey's expectations.

I also question whether Russia really wants to develop a suitable engine in time and up to expectations. It's the cheapest kind of AA, not having adversary fighter jets at the ready in the first place, after all. They already effectively secured their front with Turkey in that regard with the S-400 stunt, no F-35s to be delivered, so what prevents Putin to keep stringing Erdogan along indefinitely now?

Turkey is the second-largest operator of the F-16 Fighting Falcon, with some 270 units. If the US stops or strangles the supply of necessary parts to maintain those aircraft. Turkey may be in for a double whammy - Totattly absurd foreign policy from the current Turkish government.

 

[Ainen]

I guess the rumours hold some truth;
https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/turkey-russia-work-jet-engines-warships-submarines-erdogan

I don't question these rumours, I only question if the Russian's could develop a true fifth generation engine in time and up to Turkey's expectations.

Russia has had several engine manufacturers with the necessary level of expertise for a "true fifth-generation engine" for decades?
Provided the money&the will are here - it'll be done.

 

[LMFS]

I don't question these rumours, I only question if the Russian's could develop a true fifth generation engine in time and up to Turkey's expectations.

I don't think anyone except Russia, China and US are going to own the full IP for state of the art engines anytime soon, that includes Turkey. Something like an izd. 117 would be already quite good for them, even if they demand to have access to what comes after izd. 30 or whatever. It makes no sense to share the latest technology with essentially anyone, much less if they are unreliable partners like Turkey.

So yes, they have the technology, but it is not for Turkey.

 

[Ainen]

I don't think anyone except Russia, China and US are going to own the full IP for state of the art engines anytime soon, that includes Turkey.

UK, France, probably Germany/Italy together between each other, Japan.
p.s. except for China, the whole list didn't change much since the 1930s.

 

[Trident]

Russia has had several engine manufacturers with the necessary level of expertise for a "true fifth-generation engine" for decades?
Provided the money&the will are here - it'll be done.

Concur for the most part, but I can see a potential problem with Turkey's (shall we say, ambitious) expectations in terms of schedule. Then again, this issue would not be peculiar to a Russian collaboration, though it might well be presented as such once reality sets in.

In light of the above, I suspect licensed production of Izd. 117 or transfer of AL-31FM3 technology would be a better approach than Klimov's paper engine, while Izd. 30 should indeed be out of the question. With Checkmate specifying a single large engine and MiG's light/twin-engine schemes unlikely to come to fruition, shunting Klimov some work would be attractive from a Russian perspective however, I can see that.

 

[Combat-Master]

Some close ups of the Mock-up TFX - inlet

 

[Geo]

Some close ups of the Mock-up TFX - inlet
View attachment 665526View attachment 665527

If it's real size, this is not inlet for 117/30 class engine.

 

[Bhurki]

Some close ups of the Mock-up TFX - inlet
View attachment 665526View attachment 665527

Thats atleast 50% larger than an F22 engine inlet. Atleast thats what the size of the person(likely a kid) examining it is making me believe.

 

[Deino]

Some close ups of the Mock-up TFX - inlet
View attachment 665526View attachment 665527

Thats atleast 50% larger than an F22 engine inlet. Atleast thats what the size of the person(likely a kid) examining it is making me believe.

I think discussions on size have always a certain component of bias and personnel standard, but even if this kid is indeed only a kid, I won't say it is "at least 50% larger than an F22 engine inlet"!

 

[Combat-Master]

"According to unconfirmed information that I obtained from our sources Turkey (TR Motor Power Systems) will soon sign a contract with Ivchenko Progress from Ukraine for cooperation in the development of a 35.000lb class turbofan engine (dubbed TF-141) to power TF-X aircraft."

"The MMU/TF-X Block-0, Block-I (2029) and Block-II (2032) aircraft will be powered by General Electric’s F110 Turbofan Family (probably F110- GE-129E version due to twin-engine configuration), and starting from Block-III (2035) the aircraft will gain true 5th Generation capabilities with indigenous 35.000lb class turbofan engines featuring stealthy exhaust nozzles for low-observability."

- www.defenceturkey.com

 

[TomcatViP]

The targeted performances, as stated in the article above, seem pretty reasonable and right in the footsteps of the Korean project that so far has proved its worth.

 

[Combat-Master]

"The TurAF will gain Initial Operational Capability (IOC) with Block-I MMU/TF-X in 2031. According to TUSAŞ, deliveries of the first batch of 20 MMU/TF-X will be completed in 2034."

"On February 14, 2021 TR Motor Power Systems secured a contract from TUSAŞ for the design, development and manufacture (with technical support from Ivchenko Progress from Ukraine) of the Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) and Air Turbine Start System (ATSS) to be installed on MMU/TF-X aircraft."

- www.defenceturkey.com

 

[Anduriel]

Hm, but Ivchenko-Prohress don't have much experienced on AFB turbofans, more so in such thrust class (their sole AFB engine AI322F) is in 8-9k lb thrust class. That's too ambitious and risky, IMO.

 

[totoro]

That really makes little sense, going with Ukraine to develop a brand new engine, especially in that class. That'll take easily a decade, and it will still lag behind what other sources might've yielded in performance. On paper, Ukraine can still make 75 kn engines or 200 kn engines. But using either of those as basis for a brand new 150 kn engine is not easy. It'd basically have to be a completely new engine. And just what sort of knowledge pool does Ukraine have left? Both of the engines mentioned are basically 1980s technology.

For the life of me, I don't see why Turkey wants to scale up its plane to 150 kn engines in the first place. It operates f-16s now. Why does it feel it needs to jump from F-16 to F-22 sized planes all of a sudden?

It'd be much easier and cheaper and faster if they stuck to a 100 kn class engine and scaled their jet accordingly. They'd have much more engines to choose from, both from the West and the East.

And if they DO want a 150 kn class engine - why not go with Russia, instead of Ukraine? Russia has at least proven it can develop new engine variants. Unlike Ukraine where the engineering/development prowess pool may have atrophied considerately in the last 30 years.

Is all this just maskirovka? Or is TFX really being handled in such an asinine way that certain subsystems are being negotiated on the basis of what's best for some individual sealing the deal rather on the basis of what's best for the Turkish armed forces and Turkish aerospace industry? I guess the latter MIGHT benefit more from Ukraine deal if Ukraine agrees to hand over pretty much ALL its knowledge for a decent price - and providing Russia/China/Other countries said they don't want to share any knowledge.
But even if that IS the case, it'd still mean a decade or more until TFX engine is ready, and even then it'd likely be an inferior engine, which is not really good for the armed forces.