Stretched Type 82

RP1 said:
I was the originator of the scanned drawing - it wasn't uncited at that time, but has been reposted several times since without the citation. It is from the back cover of Rawson and Tuppers "Basic Ship Theory", third edition. I have spoken to my Prof. (David Andrews) about it and we are not sure of the exact providence.

RP1
Do you know the date that 'Basic Ship Theory' (third edition) was published? This might indicate whether the drawing was a genuine Admiralty design, or a student's design attempt.
 
I am always puzzled by the RN wanting to use a cruiser rather than a carrier for its ASW role.

The US Navy used its ESSEX class CVS to good effect and it would have been pretty cost effective for the UK
from 1962 to build a couple of simple flat tops instead of the Blake conversions. These would also have allowed
the Albion and Bulwark to be taken out of service sooner.

I know that politics precluded this, but did any sensible minds propose this option at all
 
All about roles. Once the RN ditched fixed-wing carrier based ASW aircraft there was simply no need for a true CVS in the Essex mould. The escort cruiser mashed together the role of ASW helicopter platform, command ship and AAW ship into one. If you build a simple vessel you have to put that functionality into other hulls.

The Tiger conversions are much criticised but there has been some considerable exaggeration as to the relative nature of their cost. Blake's cost less than a new-build Leander and Tiger's less than a new-build Type 21. Don't get me wrong, thats not ideal but its not the bank breaking money pit that the conversions are often presented as.
 
JFC
Interesting, I did not know that.

I still cannot help wondering why the RN did not look at a cheap light carrier for combined ASW and
Commando roles rather than a cruiser. After all its down to say 10 to 20 helos versus 4 or so.
The savings on manpower and refurbishments would have surely paid for 2 to 3 such ships replacing
the Tiger class and the Albion/Bulwark from say the late 60s.
 
Makes you wonder why they didn't do more with the Tigers, i.e. a guided missile conversion, maybe use one or more of them to get Sea Dart and possibly Ikara to sea instead of building a single Type 82. Considering their final radar outfit and removal of two of the three Mk6 twin 3", why not delete the final one in B position as well and fit Sea Dart there, then in the 70s replace Seacat with Seawolf and maybe even fit Exocet. Probably good reasons not to but they were in service, they had large crews but had to be retained for the command control and later their helicopters on two of them, so why not fit them with more systems to increase their flexibility and combat power to better justify their large man power use.

Does anyone know if something like this was considered in the 60s or 70s, I have never seen anything to that effect but it seems strange considering the US, Dutch, Italians, French and Russians all did guided missile upgrades to gun cruisers that the UK didn't, especially as they were planning escort and later ASW/command cruisers. I'm not thinking about the Seaslug conversions that never went ahead but specifically a later Seadart / Seawolf one and possibly even Ikara, as the primary sensor used for targeting that weapon was the dipping sonar of the Seaking helicopter as it range far exceeded that of a hull mounted sonar against most targets.
 
I think any idea of making more of the Tigers so to speak had long been put to one side. Their manning demands alone made them very expensive ships to keep in service, I have read, but cannot currently recall where, that their crew demands were in part only met by the run-down of the carrier force. Also, don’t forget they were very old hulls, built to wartime standards too. They were between 14 and 16 years old when they were originally completed, even the Admiralty were aware there they were very much obsolescent. There had been projects for fitting guided missiles to the earlier Colony class cruisers (Sea Slug) which were far from satisfactory, and it has to be remembered that Sea Dart was a much later time-frame. By the time it was operational, the Tigers were more than a little long-in-the-tooth. There is no way that funds would have been wasted on them in fitting such new systems into vessels which were so manpower intensive and short of future service life use. Friedman does mention that there was a proposal to fit Exocet, I think in place of the forward main turret, but this was vetoed.
 
The drawing of a variant of Type 82 drawn on the cover of a volume of Rawson and Tuppers Basic Ship Theory but without an original source is worth comparing with a similar drawing of an early version of the Type 82 in Rebuilding the Royal Navy and HMS Bristol as built.
 

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I've seen these images in either Brown's Rebuilding the RN or Friedman's British Destroyers. The image on the right raises a question for me, the gun turret appears to be a US 5"/38, was there ever any suggestion to use this. IIRC at one point there was proposals to fit the Mk IV 4.5" gun, so using the 5"/38 is not unreasonable.

I realise that the Mk8 was still in the design stage at this time, so this might be an early concept.
 
I've seen these images in either Brown's Rebuilding the RN or Friedman's British Destroyers. The image on the right raises a question for me, the gun turret appears to be a US 5"/38, was there ever any suggestion to use this. IIRC at one point there was proposals to fit the Mk IV 4.5" gun, so using the 5"/38 is not unreasonable.

I realise that the Mk8 was still in the design stage at this time, so this might be an early concept.

I’ve always assumed it was a rough drawing based on the Mark 5 Mod 1, as fitted on the Tribal-class frigates. There’s an overhang on the roof of that mount, and the rear of the gun sticks out the back as far as the overhang. At the scales these drawings are, probably best to combine them into one blocky outcrop than try to give realistic detail.
 
This MOD RN artwork shows the gun, which appears to be the Mk8 with an earlier turret design. Friedman mentions the earlier Tribal style mount was suggested initially.
 

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I've seen these images in either Brown's Rebuilding the RN or Friedman's British Destroyers. The image on the right raises a question for me, the gun turret appears to be a US 5"/38, was there ever any suggestion to use this. IIRC at one point there was proposals to fit the Mk IV 4.5" gun, so using the 5"/38 is not unreasonable.

I realise that the Mk8 was still in the design stage at this time, so this might be an early concept.

As UK75 says in his post ".. drawing of an early version of the Type 82 in Rebuilding the Royal Navy .."
 
This MOD RN artwork shows the gun, which appears to be the Mk8 with an earlier turret design. Friedman mentions the earlier Tribal style mount was suggested initially.

That turret looks like the Swedish 120mm/46 TAK120. o_O
 
Enlarged the gun in the drawing. Pictures of the Swedish and Mk8 for comparison
 

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Let me provide a better quality drawing:
 

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Anyone got any information on the version of the Type - 82 stretched to carry Chinooks mentioned in Brown's Rebuilding the Royal Navy?
 
This weird reference has been discussed in this and various related threads. The general consensus is that Brown was refering to the 1966 decision to proceed with two separate classes (Type 42 destroyer and Command Cruiser (which became the Invincible class CVS). The double page spread of 1966 Fleet Working party drawings includes two designs which also appear in Friedmans book on British Cruisers and a book called Hybrid Warships. These are not stretched Type 82s but are generally thought to be what Brown meant.
A number of contributors here do serious research from primary sources and have yet to unearth a specific Type 82 variant.
The closest we have is Study 21 shown below (Shipbucket version)
 

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Gentlemen,

I must admit to being puzzled as to why you both are getting so worked up. The question that I posed remains on the table.

Somewhere there must be someone who knows what a stretched Type 82 with helo deck might have looked like. I accept that
no drawings may have been done, and that it may have just been a series of numbers and stats.

Furthermore, let us get some perspective, we are talking about a possible project fifty years after it was looked at. I cannot really
see why we need to get worked up. I for one just see it as a bit of harmless historical interest.
 
Somewhere in all of this the question of what happened to abortive designs crops up. I think that references to the Admiralty meticulously retaining information on these designs is really references to the Ships' Covers, many of which are at the Brass Foundry out-station of the National Maritime Museum. This collection certainly includes a lot of abortive designs, such as a 1906 battleship, the Malta class carrier, the 1945 Battleship, the G (1945) class destroyer, the initial 1945 frigate, the postwar missile cruiser, and of course CVA01. But -- a big but -- a lot of Covers never made it to the Brass Foundry. In a few cases they were given numbers for what they didn't get (all the Covers are numbered). The example I can remember is the 1953 ASW submarine. Although in theory the Brass Foundry was supposed to get all Covers when they were declassified, in some cases the holders seem to have found it easier simply to destroy them -- I once heard that the Leander Cover died that way. The Covers were part of the way the DNC Department kept track of its work. They died when design authority went out-of-house, as is currently the case. My understanding is that the Type 23 Cover was the last of the lot.

To make things more interesting, there were a lot of designs which did not end up in Covers. Examples would be the bridge between the Iron Duke and Queen Elizabeth class battleships and a wartime anti-aircraft cruiser, a Legend for which you can find in the papers of the Future Building Committee. There are no Covers, I think, for the interwar sketch designs of midget battleships intended to explore Treaty limits (but there are papers, including drawings, in TNA).

There were also a lot of DNC drawings intended for the Board. Lots of them are referenced in Covers and elsewhere, but very very few have ever surfaced (the exception may be drawings in the Cover for the big missile cruiser killed in 1957). You'll notice that there are no drawings in the 1945 Battleship Cover, which has turned up on this site. And of course there are a lot of DNC-produced sketches in the papers produced to describe the future carrier-less fleet about 1966. But we haven't seen any relevant Covers.

So it isn't old disk drives that have killed this story, it is the much simpler and more depressing story of files destroyed to make space for newer ones. Once DNC and its successor DG Ships lost their authority over new designs, they really didn't need all that accumulated experience, meaning the Covers. I have no idea whether they were inherited by the current Design Authority, which is BAE, but I am skeptical.

On the US side, there are no Covers, but the old BuShips/NAVSEA Preliminary Design group kept files on each design. Typically there was a design history plus books of calculations, such as damage resistance. The design history was a compilation of relevant papers, including sketch designs. I think the Long Beach file has survived at College Park. Kidd is an interesting case. It was not a Navy design at all. Preliminary Design sketched a gas turbine destroyer as a feasibility study leading to a design competition among builders. Litton won with the Spruance. Kidd is a version of Spruance. It happened that Spruance was designed so that it could be converted into a DDG, because when it was conceived it seemed that the fleet might need more DDGs in future. There is a very good Spruance history by Potter (I forget his first name) published some years ago by USNI. Burke is, incidentally, a Navy design, as is the Perry class.
 
You peeked my interest by the mentioning of a 1906 Battleship, was that a different design than Dreadnought?
 
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Anyone got any information on the version of the Type - 82 stretched to carry Chinooks mentioned in Brown's Rebuilding the Royal Navy?

My version of RtRN does mention consideration of a stretched, 10,000 ton Bristol-class for command and helicopters. No mention of Chinooks, which IIRC were an early-to-mid 60s goal, and left by the wayside when the future fleet was being considered in 66-67.
 
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