South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[Graugrun]

Another South African MRAP, this time from the six-shot 40mm grenade launcher company Milkor... At least this one's more aesthetically pleasing than most..!

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=53146:milkor-4x4-ready-for-production&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105

 

[Mech]

Training vehicle ?

 

[kaiserbill]

Yes..Rooikat instructional with cutaway.
If that is your pic, what is that large vehicle right behind that Rooikat?

 

[sa_bushwar]

Training vehicle ?

It's a...

 

[Mech]

Looka like a Olifant.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post 1738.
This is the SA version of the Spaninsh Kynos Aljaba. It is used in various versions in SA, i.e. the Kameelperd gunnery control vehicle, the Zebra maintenance and repair vehicle, a bridgelayer, a heavy recovery vehicle (Skimmel), etc. I find it difficult to reconsile this thing with the Skerpioen truck. They seem to fill the same the same niche? Why buy the Aljaba if you have developed the Skerpioen?

 

[Graugrun]

This news has been out for a few days now - a IHS Janes article on the RG-41, that perhaps should have been the Ratel replacement instead of the winning Patria AMV, that has become the Badger.

I'm not sure why they are suddenly offering it now - some foreign interest I presume..?

https://www.janes.com/article/83335/denel-s-rg41-8-8-adds-firepower-with-new-modular-combat-turret

 

[kaiserbill]

Not perhaps..the RG41 should have been the Ratel replacement, carrying forth Denels initial investment in Project Hoefyster.
We all now know the political and other "aspects" to the Patria selection, and the shenanigans regarding the sudden changes in the selection processes and times.

 

[Mech]

Some post 93 gov (and SANDF) individuals put personal gain ahead of the local defence industry many times.
RG-41 being ITAR free was probably designed from the get-go for the foreign ( ME) market.

Looks like the old ATE remote turret is still alive in Romania. Who knew.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1742

I recently read that production of the Badger has been stopped due to financial problems?

 

[Mech]

Denel has cash flow problems despite having a healthy order book. So they cannot pay their subcontractors for the Hoefyster rollout.
Familiar signs of financial mismanagement prevalent in in SA's SOE's

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1742

Let's face it: SA does not need the Badger but but neither does it need the RG41. It would have been fine with upgraded Ratels. Even unmodified but well-maintained Ratels would have been OK. If they really wanted to spend some money, the Ilkwa (sp.?) modification would have been good. With SA's economic and cash-flow problems, the Badger money could have been spent much more effectively elsewhere, if, of course, it wasn't simply stolen.

 

[Rickshaw]

Knocked out Oliphant.

 

[Herman]

Photo from Angola?

 

[Foo Fighter]

Seems to be a hull strike from a HEAT weapon followed by catastrophic munition involvement.

 

[curious george]

"The most photographed tank in Africa".

Without rehashing the particular history from 1988, 3 tanks were disabled(tracks/mobility kills) in a minefield and abandoned to be recovered later. It turned out the objective could not be taken without serious losses(3rd attack on Tumpo) and these tanks fell into Cuban/Fapla hands before they could be destroyed.

Only 1 vehicle was effectively recovered by the Cubans and the other 2 stripped/destroyed in place in the minefield.The recovered vehicle was stripped of its turret(presumably by the Soviet advisors to evaluate and whereabouts unknown to today, the hull forms part of a display at museum at Quito.

 

[leo.nap]

...
Strange Rhino indeed. I wonder what the story behind that is?
Those look like Ystervark 20mm AA guns behind there, so we can probably use that, and the Casspir, to fix a rough date.

This photo was taken in 1996
And here's another picture. This Rhino FCP is currently used together with the Bosvark AA system.

 

[panzerskool]

dont know how to post pics but this shows a destroyed Ratel in Yemen

http://iblagh.com/en/50-saudi-led-coalition-mercenaries-killed-in-yemen-marib-province/

(photo attached)

 

[Graugrun]

New Mbombe 4 version (it seems to actually be a fairly altered design to the Mbombe 6 and 8)

https://www.janes.com/article/86509/african-drive-idex19d2

 

[Mech]

New UAE light attack aircraft Calidus displayed with what looks like the same mystery PGM displayed with Denel products and Ahrlac at AAD.
Found some info saying its Tawazun Dynamics product.
Could this be a new bomb developed by Denel Dynamics for Tawazun ?

 

[kaiserbill]

Over on the tanks encyclopedia site, a couple of pics have been posted from a fellow who worked for Kentron in the 1980's.
These are concept type drawings/art of certain vehicles or systems that were in development at the time.

The ATGW Ratel that ended up as the Ratel ZT-3.
The turret and weapons configuation are different.

 

[kaiserbill]

The requirement for a mechanised mobile SPAAG was eventually settled on the ZA-35 on a modified Rooikat chassis.
The G-6 SP artillery was also considered, as pictures out there of a G-6 hull with ZA-35 turret show.
I recall from Helmoed Romer Heitmans books in the late 80's/early '90's that mention was made that a variety of platforms or hulls were looked at, including the Ratel IFV.
I have wondered about it, as the ZA-35 turret is very big (hence the Rooikat and G-6 hulls)

Again, from tanks encyclopedia site, concept drawing from a fellow who worked at Kentron.
I don't know much beyond the above.

 

[kaiserbill]

Again, in line with the posts above, concept drawings during the development of the twin 35mm SPAAG on the Rooikat chassis.
The turret was very different.

 

[kaiserbill]

Concept drawing during development of the air defence missile variant that eventually became the Rooikat SPAAM, with the turret also trialled on the G-6 chassis.
This is during development...the turret is completely different. The hull is based on the Rooikat, but is considerably different, especially up front.
The original concept was also for a fixed (containerised) version, which is carried through to the Umkhonto SAM today. (The SAHV system basically morphed into and was renamed Umkhonto)

 

[TomS]

The requirement for a mechanised mobile SPAAG was eventually settled on the ZA-35 on a modified Rooikat chassis.
The G-6 SP artillery was also considered, as pictures out there of a G-6 hull with ZA-35 turret show.
I recall from Helmoed Romer Heitmans books in the late 80's/early '90's that mention was made that a variety of platforms or hulls were looked at, including the Ratel IFV.
I have wondered about it, as the ZA-35 turret is very big (hence the Rooikat and G-6 hulls)

Again, from tanks encyclopedia site, concept drawing from a fellow who worked at Kentron.
I don't know much beyond the above.

This looks very much like the 30mm Wildcat turret.

http://www.armourbook.com/uploads/forum/posts/1298291483_wildcat-8x8.jpg

 

[kaiserbill]

Precisely what I thought too.
I suppose if you are looking for inspiration in the early design phases for an AA gun on a wheeled IFV chassis at or under the 20t range, it's a good starting point to study.
The eventual option was a more capable, heavier system mounted on the heavier, more capable Rooikat chassis.

 

[Pioneer]

The requirement for a mechanised mobile SPAAG was eventually settled on the ZA-35 on a modified Rooikat chassis.
The G-6 SP artillery was also considered, as pictures out there of a G-6 hull with ZA-35 turret show.
I recall from Helmoed Romer Heitmans books in the late 80's/early '90's that mention was made that a variety of platforms or hulls were looked at, including the Ratel IFV.
I have wondered about it, as the ZA-35 turret is very big (hence the Rooikat and G-6 hulls)

Again, from tanks encyclopedia site, concept drawing from a fellow who worked at Kentron.
I don't know much beyond the above.

Oh wow, great find kaiserbill, looks like some Krauss-Maffei Wildcat SPAAG turret layout and influence!

Thank's for sharing!!

Regards
Pioneer

 

[Mech]

I remember seeing Denel artwork of a Rooikat AA concept with the 35mm guns mounted on the centreline of the turret instead.
Read somewhere that on some systems the barrels elevating can interfere with the radar.

 

[kaiserbill]

A new article about the Tank Technology Demonstrator (TTD), under Project Loggim, with previously unpublished videos and pictures.
I was not aware that a "sub" test bed vehicle had also been manufactured and tested, in 1987/88, to test automotive/running gear, and armour components.
The videos uploaded from youtube are interesting from a mechanical point of view.

http://www.tanks-encyclopedia.com/modern/south-africa/tank-technology-demonstrator/?fbclid=IwAR34jx449a57kWSeHEITwW_RY9ghB-7rc9WeXaVEYb3GNCT__cd24mfQKvc

 

[kaiserbill]

I wonder where this sub test bed vehicle, as seen in the video, ended up?

 

[kaiserbill]

https://youtu.be/y7eHvjfkdH8

 

[kaiserbill]

https://youtu.be/Xmt8nNuR504

 

[Mech]

Looks to me like a regular LEO2 hull that's been disguised with add-on panels.
Similar to what the car companies do when they test prototypes out in the wild.
I'd guess it was used for component testing and then sent back to Germany to avoid any possible bad PR.

I wonder where this sub test bed vehicle, as seen in the video, ended up?

 

[kaiserbill]

I am not sure..they mention a differently rated engine than that found on the Leopard 2 and TTD.
Can anybody get a few screengrabs from the video so a closer look can be had?

 

[Hood]

I used to have a Brassey's book that had a quite detailed entry on the TTD. Haven't got it now which is a shame. I can't remember exactly what the basis for the chassis was but I don't think it was a Leopard 2.

 

[Rickshaw]

I used to have a Brassey's book that had a quite detailed entry on the TTD. Haven't got it now which is a shame. I can't remember exactly what the basis for the chassis was but I don't think it was a Leopard 2.

IIRC it was Centurion, wasn't it?

 

[Mech]

Pause the TTD vid at 14 sec.
That's a LEO2 hull all day long.
Looks like they added some extra dust filtering on top of the engine bay.
It wouldn't be the first armoured vehicle hull loaned to SA for testing and then sent back to Germany.

 

[kaiserbill]

I used to have a Brassey's book that had a quite detailed entry on the TTD. Haven't got it now which is a shame. I can't remember exactly what the basis for the chassis was but I don't think it was a Leopard 2.

IIRC it was Centurion, wasn't it?

The Olifant Mk1B, Optimal, and Mk2 are Centurion based.
The TTD was a brand new design.

 

[Rickshaw]

I used to have a Brassey's book that had a quite detailed entry on the TTD. Haven't got it now which is a shame. I can't remember exactly what the basis for the chassis was but I don't think it was a Leopard 2.

IIRC it was Centurion, wasn't it?

The Olifant Mk1B, Optimal, and Mk2 are Centurion based.
The TTD was a brand new design.

Ah, OK, thanks.

 

[stealthflanker]

doesn't look like Leo 2 to me

TTD

Leopard 2A4