curious george
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South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.
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curious george
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curious george said:
Possibly, but the engine location or position looks a little different?
I must admit that the width of the tyres made me think of the SHE trucks, but those tyres appear smaller, or that massive Bismark 8x8 armoured car.
That second pic is nice, thanks for posting.
Be nice to get a little backround info, including what roles were envisaged for it.
We went in this forum from having only that large armoured SAMIL 100 based 8x8 gun tractor, to having clearly numerous MAN 8x8, SHE/Kynos 8x8, and now this mystery 8x8's.
Makes one wonder if there wasn't an 8x8 multi-purpose platform programme that was then branched out and satisfied by the MAN and SHE/Kynos ranges? But that is again pure speculation on my part.
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Was having another look at that 8x8 truck, Curious George.
It is massive. Must weigh quite a bit, considering the Bison 6x6 Weapons Platform weighs in at 17 tons empty, and the Kwevoel Mk1 6x6 Armoured Horse Transporter weighs in at about 16 tons empty.
Looking at the armoured cab, as well as the 8x8 configuration and large load bed, I get the impression this was meant for off road operations far from established infrastructure, possibly in a combat support role? Otherwise a "vanilla" 6x6 armoured Kwevoel SAMIL would have sufficed. Could be artillery related as a "cheaper" armoured option to that original 8x8 SAMIL armoured gun tractor?
Anyhow, it will be interesting to see what you manage to dig up. Quite fascinating.
It is massive. Must weigh quite a bit, considering the Bison 6x6 Weapons Platform weighs in at 17 tons empty, and the Kwevoel Mk1 6x6 Armoured Horse Transporter weighs in at about 16 tons empty.
Looking at the armoured cab, as well as the 8x8 configuration and large load bed, I get the impression this was meant for off road operations far from established infrastructure, possibly in a combat support role? Otherwise a "vanilla" 6x6 armoured Kwevoel SAMIL would have sufficed. Could be artillery related as a "cheaper" armoured option to that original 8x8 SAMIL armoured gun tractor?
Anyhow, it will be interesting to see what you manage to dig up. Quite fascinating.
Reply to post #972
Very interesting vehicle. There were reports that the Samil 100 was not quite satisfactory under operational conditions, with both the chassis and the axles not up to the task. I believe this may be the vehicle that was designed to replace it. The big front of the vehicle suggests a water-cooled engine. The grill surface of the air-cooled Samils with armoured cabs is much smaller. By the early eighties, the SA Army had stopped using the Deutz air-cooled units in the Samil 20 and 50 trucks and had switched to water-cooled Atlantis diesels. These were all Mercedes designs for the larger engines. Some of the smaller Atlantis engines were Perkins based. I think the engine of this 8x8 vehicle is a V10 water-cooled unit. The Rooikat also uses a V10 water-cooled engine, apparently by MAN. To further confuse/enlighten the the engine situation, I believe the V6, V8, V10 and V12 German water-cooled engines from the sixties to eighties era were developed by Mercedes and MAN together. The blocks are therefore identical with just the various ancillaries, turbochargers, cooling systems, etc. developed separately by Mercedes and MAN.
Very interesting vehicle. There were reports that the Samil 100 was not quite satisfactory under operational conditions, with both the chassis and the axles not up to the task. I believe this may be the vehicle that was designed to replace it. The big front of the vehicle suggests a water-cooled engine. The grill surface of the air-cooled Samils with armoured cabs is much smaller. By the early eighties, the SA Army had stopped using the Deutz air-cooled units in the Samil 20 and 50 trucks and had switched to water-cooled Atlantis diesels. These were all Mercedes designs for the larger engines. Some of the smaller Atlantis engines were Perkins based. I think the engine of this 8x8 vehicle is a V10 water-cooled unit. The Rooikat also uses a V10 water-cooled engine, apparently by MAN. To further confuse/enlighten the the engine situation, I believe the V6, V8, V10 and V12 German water-cooled engines from the sixties to eighties era were developed by Mercedes and MAN together. The blocks are therefore identical with just the various ancillaries, turbochargers, cooling systems, etc. developed separately by Mercedes and MAN.
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Good call on the Rooikat V10 engine.
I hadn't considered that.
I hadn't considered that.
Reply to post #979
Bound to be highly interesting. We seem to possibly be coming to the end of the golden era of the MRAP era with things winding down in Afghanistan. The US is apparently cutting thousands of vehicles up and selling/giving the steel and mechanical components to the locals as it is cheaper than taking the vehicles home, and the vehicles have become surplus to requirements anyway. Short-term foolishness in my opinion. The whole of North Africa is a festering cess pit and will be for many years to come. Most of the terrain there is suitable for MRAP use.
Bound to be highly interesting. We seem to possibly be coming to the end of the golden era of the MRAP era with things winding down in Afghanistan. The US is apparently cutting thousands of vehicles up and selling/giving the steel and mechanical components to the locals as it is cheaper than taking the vehicles home, and the vehicles have become surplus to requirements anyway. Short-term foolishness in my opinion. The whole of North Africa is a festering cess pit and will be for many years to come. Most of the terrain there is suitable for MRAP use.
The Ratel History, a draft document I found on the NET (which I assume it is related to the forthcoming book posted by me on my first post) has no pictures of the Ratel ARV. And there are many other Ratel variants missing.
Ratel Armoured Repair Vehicle
Ratel Armoured Repair Vehicle
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AWM53, excellent series of posts.
I would very much like to purchase a copy of that book in your first post when it comes out.
A brief google doesn't reveal much....do you know where one can put an order in for it?
It seems that there is a September 2014 release date for South Africa.
It looks like a "must-have" for my library.
Edit: Just going through that Ratel history. It is fascinating, and sheds a lot more light on the subject, as well as showing that quite a few more vehicles were initially tested than we had unearthed in this thread.
I would very much like to purchase a copy of that book in your first post when it comes out.
A brief google doesn't reveal much....do you know where one can put an order in for it?
It seems that there is a September 2014 release date for South Africa.
It looks like a "must-have" for my library.
Edit: Just going through that Ratel history. It is fascinating, and sheds a lot more light on the subject, as well as showing that quite a few more vehicles were initially tested than we had unearthed in this thread.
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Also, in the 2nd and 3rd attachment in the Ratel history post, the (d) Panhard M4 4x4 amphibious vehicle (the one that sank in trials) and (e) Panhard M6 6x6 are new to me, and I cannot seem to find out anything about them via google...
Yes, apparently there is nothing available in "Google".kaiserbill said:
I got the info directly from http://www.30degreessouth.co.za/ while making queries about another book. There are some email addresses under "Contact Us". Get more info from Landi Albertyn.
Yes, unfortunately or fortunately Google does not provide all the answers. Go here: http://www.sacolours.co.za/ The author of the draft document is William Marshall and his address can be found under "Contact Us".kaiserbill said:
And on his latest issue (Number 8) of "South African Colours and Markings", mention is made about other French vehicles tested by the South African Armed Forces, which were rejected and replaced by the French Panhard - from the SA Eland series.
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Thanks AWM53.
Following a few links there bought me to a book recent book by Lt Col Marshall about the Marmon Herrington Armoured Car.
It looks like a cracker, but is pricey. I'll have to save the pennies for both books, it seems...
That book in your first post is a definite for me, so I'll do a little digging around to see here and when it can be ordered.
Following a few links there bought me to a book recent book by Lt Col Marshall about the Marmon Herrington Armoured Car.
It looks like a cracker, but is pricey. I'll have to save the pennies for both books, it seems...
That book in your first post is a definite for me, so I'll do a little digging around to see here and when it can be ordered.
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Thanks for that pic of the Hottentotsgod mine roller.
The only other pic I've seen is the one posted earlier in the thread from HR Heitmans book.
The only other pic I've seen is the one posted earlier in the thread from HR Heitmans book.
I cannot comment about the cutting of thousands of MRAPs. But one thing is for sure. Some of these MRAPs are being repatriated. US Police SWAT teams are acquiring military hardware.Herman said:
"According to March report in USA Today co-written by US Representative Hank Johnson, the following counties “have acquired free MRAPs from US war zones”:
McLennan and Dallas Counties in Texas; Boise and Nampa Counties in Idaho; Indiana's West Lafayette, Merrillville, and Madison Counties in Indiana (not to mention Johnson); Minnesota's St. Cloud and Dakota Counties in Minnesota; Warren and Jefferson Counties in New York; North Augusta and Columbia in South Carolina; Murfreesboro in Tennessee; Yuma in Arizona; Kankakee County in Illinois; and Calhoun County in Alabama.
Many of the vehicles were acquired through the 1033 program, a 1997 law which facilitated the transfer of military hardware to local police forces. But what appears to be free federal handouts could result in fundamentally changing the face of the United States."
http://rt.com/usa/164816-american-police-militarization-war/
Reply to post #998.
The EBR was tested at the same time as the AML in S.A.; 1961/62, I believe. The EBR was a highly complex vehicle which cost as much as a MBT. It was designed as a dedicated reconnaissance vehice with drivers at both sides and a number of unique features including hydropneumatic suspension, steering on front and rear wheels, an oscillating turret and a flat-12 air-cooled engine, only 20cm high, fitted under the turret basket. The vehicle was judged by the South Africans as not suitable for their requirements, too expensive and too complex for local manufacture.
The EBR was tested at the same time as the AML in S.A.; 1961/62, I believe. The EBR was a highly complex vehicle which cost as much as a MBT. It was designed as a dedicated reconnaissance vehice with drivers at both sides and a number of unique features including hydropneumatic suspension, steering on front and rear wheels, an oscillating turret and a flat-12 air-cooled engine, only 20cm high, fitted under the turret basket. The vehicle was judged by the South Africans as not suitable for their requirements, too expensive and too complex for local manufacture.
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That Ratel history also clears up a little mystery for me.
There were 2 Panhard M3's then in the initial phase of the Ratel development.
One imported from France called the Bosbok (Bushbuck), and another local variant called Onsbok (Our Buck, as opposed to Their Buck being the M3)
This Onsbok seems to have had it's layout changed over the "vanilla" M3, including a different GM engine, and moving the engine location from the centre of the vehicle to the rear.
That would explain the external differences noted on the one "M3" at the armour Museum in Bloemfontein.
There were 2 Panhard M3's then in the initial phase of the Ratel development.
One imported from France called the Bosbok (Bushbuck), and another local variant called Onsbok (Our Buck, as opposed to Their Buck being the M3)
This Onsbok seems to have had it's layout changed over the "vanilla" M3, including a different GM engine, and moving the engine location from the centre of the vehicle to the rear.
That would explain the external differences noted on the one "M3" at the armour Museum in Bloemfontein.
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In another thread, the Panhard M6 (6x6) has been pictured.
This was the vehicle entered into the trials leading to the Ratel, and described in AWM53's attachment as having suffered hydraulic leaks and pneumatic suspension failure, leading it not to have been tested, and returned to France.
The name Boerboel will be self explanatory to South African dog lovers...
This was the vehicle entered into the trials leading to the Ratel, and described in AWM53's attachment as having suffered hydraulic leaks and pneumatic suspension failure, leading it not to have been tested, and returned to France.
The name Boerboel will be self explanatory to South African dog lovers...
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Reply to post #1003
There were 2 Panhard M3's then in the initial phase of the Ratel development.
One imported from France called the Bosbok (Bushbuck), and another local variant called Onsbok (Our Buck, as opposed to Their Buck being the M3)
When last in Bloemfontein, I had a look inside the Onsbok. The engine had been removed but the mountings were still in place. The in-line six cylinder engine had been mounted at the back of the vehicle, in its centre. On either side of the engine, at the back, there were doors fitted. The infantry sat on either side of the engine and to its front. A stainless steel petrol tank was situated under the driver's seat.
There were 2 Panhard M3's then in the initial phase of the Ratel development.
One imported from France called the Bosbok (Bushbuck), and another local variant called Onsbok (Our Buck, as opposed to Their Buck being the M3)
When last in Bloemfontein, I had a look inside the Onsbok. The engine had been removed but the mountings were still in place. The in-line six cylinder engine had been mounted at the back of the vehicle, in its centre. On either side of the engine, at the back, there were doors fitted. The infantry sat on either side of the engine and to its front. A stainless steel petrol tank was situated under the driver's seat.
Reply tp post #987.
I wonder if the upcoming book will have more informtaion on the somewhat mysterious 8x8 Sprinkaan vehicle, the prototype of which is now lying in a dilapidated state at the School of Armour Museum, in Bloemfontien?
I wonder if the upcoming book will have more informtaion on the somewhat mysterious 8x8 Sprinkaan vehicle, the prototype of which is now lying in a dilapidated state at the School of Armour Museum, in Bloemfontien?
Reply to post #989:
In wrote a bit about the Panhard 4x4 and 6x6 vehicles in the speculative "essay" on the development of the Ratel I posted some time ago (around january 2013, I believe). These vehicles were developed in the early seventies is response to a request from the French department of Defence for proposals for a family multipurpose, wheeled armoured personnel carriers, in 4x4, 6x6 and 8x8 configuration. The request was issued in 1970. In response to the request, Panhard and Saviem developed prototype vehicles. The Panhard vehicles were unusual and complex vehicles with extensive use being made of hydraulics. The 8x8, for instance, only steered with the front wheels. For road travel, the centre 4 wheels were lifted off the ground by the hydraulic suspension, similar to the technique used in the earlier EBR armoured car. Off-road all 8 wheels were on the ground and steering could be assisted by braking the wheels on the left or right side of the vehicle. The car could even make a stationary turn by lifting the front and the rear wheels and then, teetering on the centre 4 wheels, the wheels on the one side could be stopped while the the 2 wheels on the other side were driven.
The competition was won by the Saviem vehicle and the 4x4 version was adopted by the French Army as the VAB (Vehicle de l'Avant Blinde) while the 6x6 version was exported to many countries. Saviem was absorbed by Renault and the cars were produces by SMS, a consortium formed between Creusot-Loire and Renault. of These vehicles are still in large scale use today.
The Panhard vehicles never went into production. Some of the technology was used in the Sagaie 6x6 armoured car which was introduced in 1977.
I find it curious that the Saviem/Renault vehicles (VAB) were not trialled in South Africa. The time frame for the development of the Ratel was right, with the Panhard prototypes and VAB prototypes being tested by the French between May 1973 and May 1974. First production VAB vehicles were delivered to the French Army in 1976. I believe Renault withdrew from South Africa during the seventies, for political reasons, and it may be that they were unwilling to provide prototypes to S.A. Using some of the technology of the VAB, a very interesting 8x8 ICV could have been developed, somewhat similar to the Sprinkaan.
In wrote a bit about the Panhard 4x4 and 6x6 vehicles in the speculative "essay" on the development of the Ratel I posted some time ago (around january 2013, I believe). These vehicles were developed in the early seventies is response to a request from the French department of Defence for proposals for a family multipurpose, wheeled armoured personnel carriers, in 4x4, 6x6 and 8x8 configuration. The request was issued in 1970. In response to the request, Panhard and Saviem developed prototype vehicles. The Panhard vehicles were unusual and complex vehicles with extensive use being made of hydraulics. The 8x8, for instance, only steered with the front wheels. For road travel, the centre 4 wheels were lifted off the ground by the hydraulic suspension, similar to the technique used in the earlier EBR armoured car. Off-road all 8 wheels were on the ground and steering could be assisted by braking the wheels on the left or right side of the vehicle. The car could even make a stationary turn by lifting the front and the rear wheels and then, teetering on the centre 4 wheels, the wheels on the one side could be stopped while the the 2 wheels on the other side were driven.
The competition was won by the Saviem vehicle and the 4x4 version was adopted by the French Army as the VAB (Vehicle de l'Avant Blinde) while the 6x6 version was exported to many countries. Saviem was absorbed by Renault and the cars were produces by SMS, a consortium formed between Creusot-Loire and Renault. of These vehicles are still in large scale use today.
The Panhard vehicles never went into production. Some of the technology was used in the Sagaie 6x6 armoured car which was introduced in 1977.
I find it curious that the Saviem/Renault vehicles (VAB) were not trialled in South Africa. The time frame for the development of the Ratel was right, with the Panhard prototypes and VAB prototypes being tested by the French between May 1973 and May 1974. First production VAB vehicles were delivered to the French Army in 1976. I believe Renault withdrew from South Africa during the seventies, for political reasons, and it may be that they were unwilling to provide prototypes to S.A. Using some of the technology of the VAB, a very interesting 8x8 ICV could have been developed, somewhat similar to the Sprinkaan.
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Herman said:
So I take it that it is definitely the Springkaan then?
I hope it is in the book.
Some more info on it would be great.
Reply to post #1008.
I am really curious about that vehicle. It was supposedly built by the technical workshops of the S.A. Army. All the other vehicles tested in the Ratel trials were foreign designed and built except for the Ratel and this thing. The Ratel was a low-tech, low risk effort, basically consisting of an armoured body with the mechanical bits from a MAN off-road truck stuck to it. This 8x8 (presumably the Sprinkaan) shows a lot of ingenuity. The axles from the Magirus gun tractors were changed from leaf to coil springs which means that the axles had to be stabilized with longitudinal rods and/or trailing arms, Panhard rods, etc. When you look underneath the vehicle, one sees all kinds of interesting details like the cable and pulley systems to limit axle travel, the purposely deigned linkages to provide steering to the front 2 axles, etc.
This was definitely not the result of a bunch of tiffies sitting around, having beers and deciding: "Let's strip down those two old Magirusses and build an ICV!" I am really curious about who the design authority was and where exactly it was put together. The other thing is: we have no photographs of the vehicle actually running or being tested. All we have are the photo's of the wreck currently lying in Bloemfontein.
Who designed and built this thing, where and when, and did it actually run?!
I am really curious about that vehicle. It was supposedly built by the technical workshops of the S.A. Army. All the other vehicles tested in the Ratel trials were foreign designed and built except for the Ratel and this thing. The Ratel was a low-tech, low risk effort, basically consisting of an armoured body with the mechanical bits from a MAN off-road truck stuck to it. This 8x8 (presumably the Sprinkaan) shows a lot of ingenuity. The axles from the Magirus gun tractors were changed from leaf to coil springs which means that the axles had to be stabilized with longitudinal rods and/or trailing arms, Panhard rods, etc. When you look underneath the vehicle, one sees all kinds of interesting details like the cable and pulley systems to limit axle travel, the purposely deigned linkages to provide steering to the front 2 axles, etc.
This was definitely not the result of a bunch of tiffies sitting around, having beers and deciding: "Let's strip down those two old Magirusses and build an ICV!" I am really curious about who the design authority was and where exactly it was put together. The other thing is: we have no photographs of the vehicle actually running or being tested. All we have are the photo's of the wreck currently lying in Bloemfontein.
Who designed and built this thing, where and when, and did it actually run?!
sa_bushwar
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sa_bushwar
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Interesting.
I initially passed that off simply as a Ratel 81mm Mortar, but having looked at it again, it has a larger front superstructure.
I think it is modified from the 81mm mortar carrier though.
I initially passed that off simply as a Ratel 81mm Mortar, but having looked at it again, it has a larger front superstructure.
I think it is modified from the 81mm mortar carrier though.
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