South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[JFC Fuller]

From f/book,

app one of two prototypes,guy called it "Skerpioen"(Scorpion)

Awaiting details re time frame,samil based,etc?

2nd pic posted, sorry no additional info available as yet.

This vehicle is especially interesting, it looks like a serious effort to replace the SAMIL- at least in its larger forms. Has any more information emerged about it..?

 

[curious george]

From f/book,

app one of two prototypes,guy called it "Skerpioen"(Scorpion)

Awaiting details re time frame,samil based,etc?

2nd pic posted, sorry no additional info available as yet.

This vehicle is especially interesting, it looks like a serious effort to replace the SAMIL- at least in its larger forms. Has any more information emerged about it..?

Sadly nothing,will post if anything comes up.

 

[TomS]

I have seen something similiar on an Oryx, described as EW (Electronic Warfare). Same antenna on the one Oryx, and also a different "covered" antenna on another.
Maybe this is more at home in the SA aerospace projects thread?

Not a great mystery; it's a standoff communications jammer.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1052:


This was taken at the School of Armour museum in January 2014.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

I have seen something similiar on an Oryx, described as EW (Electronic Warfare). Same antenna on the one Oryx, and also a different "covered" antenna on another.
Maybe this is more at home in the SA aerospace projects thread?

Not a great mystery; it's a standoff communications jammer.

The antenna type is a Yagi Array which is a directional antenna. Note how it kind of looks like the antenna is mounted on a gate type swing. Probably allowing the operators inside the helo to point it at the receiver they intend on jamming.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Was this truck for export only, or is it used by the SANDF?

 

[kaiserbill]

That is the Spanish Kynos Aljaba, that was selected to be built in modified form in South Africa by SHE as the Cavallo.

I'm not sure when exactly this was, but the Spanish Army recieved their first Aljabas in around 1987.
I have been trying to ascertain when exactly the trucks were produced in South Africa, as well as finding out a little bit more about SHE Engineering, but I haven't had much success. For example, the letters SHE must stand for something...like S****** Heavy Engineering, or something along those lines.

The South African Army has quite a few versions, such as Transporter, Recovery vehicle (Skimmel), Repair/Maintenance vehicle (Zebra), Radar vehicle (Kameelperd), and the Surface to Air Missile (SAM) GBADS.
http://www.army.mil.za/equipment/vehicles/technical_support_vehicles.htm

The Aljaba 8x8 developed in 1982 by a company Kynos SA, was the predecessor of a SHE Cavallo truck. The Aljaba is used by the Spanish armed forces; and it is also used by South Africa, but called by SANDF the Cavallo. The Cavallo in South Africa is used more as a tank recovery vehicle instead of tank transportation (Kynos Aljaba 8x8 is a tank transporter). The South African Cavallo version has a number of differences from the Aljaba. The most obvious is mine protection – the cab has an armored underside, sides and front, with the sides and front having an AV of 2 and the underside 3. The Cavallo also has folding A-frame crane used in concert with the winches; it may be used only when a semi-trailer is not attached to the Cavallo, as it gets in the way of the fifth wheel. Other technical characteristics are the same, including the Deutz 19-litre V-12 turbocharged diesel and ZF semi-automatic gearbox with torque converter.

http://www.trucksplanet.com/catalog/model.php?id=1101

 

[sa_bushwar]

The TTD in 3-tone camo

 

[sa_bushwar]

The Gecko with tracks....

 

[xiaofan]

The Gecko with seven wheels....

 

[stimpy75]

found these while surfing,hope they were not posted yet

 

[Graugrun]

Someone mentioned this earlier in the thread, the Tiger fire control system developed by Kentron for the then T-72 market. There was supposedly a multi-million $ sale pending with Syria ( in the early 90's), however political pressure from Israel and the US scuppered the deal (maybe a good thing). The Tiger FC system seems to have been a slightly further development on the FCS for the TDD, I will also scan and post some specific brochures on the gunner and commander sight soon.

 

[kaiserbill]

Graugrun, these brochures are greatly appreciated!

 

[curious george]

Early days,mostly Toyota and Ford pick-up based?(off f/book)

 

[curious george]

Cant say that too many of these were around,my best guess would be that the base vehicle would've been a 6x6 Merc truck, the fueltank,etc looks similar to those as used by Koevoet log vehicles and trucks(or the Chinese clone) as used by Unita/CSI on our side of the border '86-7.

*pic of f/book*

Another thought on that Skerpioen 8 x 8 now,maybe merc based?

 

[kaiserbill]

CG, the photo tag says Tierkat.

I had a look at SA Arms and Armour, and it mentions the Tierkat was a conversion system designed for cargo trucks in the 5 tonne, 10 tonne, and larger class.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Some more prototypes from the Fort Klapperkop display (Source FB)

Very interesting SA Bushwar!

New prototypes which I've not seen nor heard of keep popping up.

The front and rear cab is a single unit, unlike the Buffel, as I thought from the other photo, so although obviously based on the Buffel troop compartment, it is different.
You took the pics in the late 1980's, which date these vehicles from before then.
As speculated earlier, I wonder if these are linked with the SAMIL-20 based Rhino and Bulldog vehicles in a programme to replace the Unimog based Buffel...

What is that vehicle behind it, with the multiple windows?
Did you take any other photos of these MRV vehicles you mention?

 

[kaiserbill]

SaBushwar, is this display still in existence, or was it a one-off display for a special occasion?

 

[sa_bushwar]

It was there in the late 80's till early 90's, and was then hastely removed before the 1994 elections. It seems it has now been scattered as some vehicles are popping up in different places.

 

[curious george]

More pics of that "rescued" proto 9mm smg.

Interesting size comparison to the std Uzi,known as a S1 in the SADF.

By complete coincidence,I bought some bxp mags from a gent,who happen another prototype!(Edit*10 were built,3 remain,incl one in a museum,the remainder were all destroyed.)

Dont have his permission to post his pic,but when I get the opportunity to take up the invite to shoot this sample,I will take more pics. Unfortunately there is a 1000km between us that stands in the way!

 

[curious george]

*more pics of f/book.

 

[kaiserbill]

Curious George, your 3rd picture is interesting, and I'm not sure what that is.

Your last pic is of the Albatross, or at least one of the types of Albatross.
Earlier in the thread I posted Helmoed Romer Heitmans description, which is posted below again.
Another poster posted another pic of the Albatros, but with a longer engine bay, just like yours above.
I've since noticed 2 distinct types called Albatros, one with the larger/longer engine bay, and another with a much shorter one.
Some also have 2 wheels on each rear axle, and some 4.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Hyena (or is it the Wolf?) on Mog chassis, before the design was transferred to the larger Bedford chassis as part of an SAP requirement, which eventually became the Hippo.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Spotted this Reumech bullet proof SUV a while back...

 

[Graugrun]

Here's an interesting and rare brochure on the Rhino - I have some even more interesting brochures that I still need to scan and post of some other vehicles.

 

[curious george]

*off f/book

The poster:" Ford F250 chassis fitted with a "telefoonhokkie" made of armour steel and glass.

Access was via the roof.
A hole was cut in the floor to allow protrusion of the gear lever!
Definitely would have been tickets to the driver in the case of contact with a mine!


Singalamwe 1973/74 '

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #1077
Here's an interesting and rare brochure on the Rhino...

Thanks Graugrun. Interesting brochure. I always found this to be an oddish but attractive vehicle. Did not realize that it did not have doors at the back. Access is apparently only possible through the two side doors next to the driver and co-driver, and through a single side door on the left side. Presumably also hatches in the roof but the thing is so high, a troopy would likely plummet to his death if he attempted to leave the vehicle by that route!

 

[Graugrun]

I don't recall seeing a pic of this on this thread yet - the prototype Ratel ZT-3 anti-tank vehicle.

 

[Graugrun]

Just to follow up on the brochure I posted on Pg 71 of this thread (I still need to scan and post the gunner and commander sights brochures...), an interesting article from Jane's 'Defence Systems Modernisation Sept '93 .

The really interesting part for me is that the upgrade would have included new 125mm barrels and thermal sleeves!

It also adds some info about the ZA-35 SPAAG turret mounted on a T-72.

 

[kaiserbill]

Interesting about the new 125mm gun.

A while back in the thread we were discussing the various South African manufactured tank guns which have a GT prefix, and another poster speculated that perhaps one of the GT designations for which we don't have a calibre for might have been a local 125mm.....

The ZT-3 Ratel prototype is interesting.

I know pre-production ZT-3's used in Angola were known as the MONGOL, but I cannot recall if the vehicles themselves were pre-production/prototypes (like the one above) or production versions.

 

[Graugrun]

Thanks - I did not know that the Ratel ZT-3 started out as project MONGOL - the pics that I have seen of them deployed in Angola all seem to have the later styled missile tubes (different to my pic of the prototype above).

BTW - here's another pic of the Krokodil, the accompanying article (Janes IDR 1997) confirms that it was also known as the Ratel 4 and that it featured both spaced and ceramic armour. It also confirms the much higher level of mine resistance compared to that of the original Ratel.

 

[curious george]

*off f/book

 

[sa_bushwar]

The manufacturers' plate of this vehicle states: "2 Tonne Missile Carrier". I suppose it carried rockets for the Valkiri?

 

[sa_bushwar]

The seldom seen Kwevoel 20

 

[kaiserbill]

SA Bushwar, thanks for those.

I'd actually not given much thought about the original Valkiri system, and how exatly the reloads were handled.
I think you're right.

I also wasn't aware that a Kwevoel based on the SAMIL 20 was devised, and thought it was only the larger SAMIL 50 and 100.

 

[sa_bushwar]

I have noticed with the high rate of fire of the Valkiri systems during Ops Modular/Hooper and Packer that artillery ammo was transported with whatever means available, namely flown in to Mavinga by the plane loads or driven in from SWA by Kwevoel 100 and 50's. The Unimog missile carrier would have been more useful close to the deployment of the battery to move rockets to the launchers.

SA Bushwar, thanks for those.

I'd actually not given much thought about the original Valkiri system, and how exatly the reloads were handled.
I think you're right.

I also wasn't aware that a Kwevoel based on the SAMIL 20 was devised, and thought it was only the larger SAMIL 50 and 100.

 

[sa_bushwar]

From the former Fort Klapperkop display mentioned earlier, here is another early mine detection vehicle.

 

[curious george]

I have noticed with the high rate of fire of the Valkiri systems during Ops Modular/Hooper and Packer that artillery ammo was transported with whatever means available, namely flown in to Mavinga by the plane loads or driven in from SWA by Kwevoel 100 and 50's.

I started twitching here lol, my body remembered ho skin my hands donated loading and unloading those....

 

[kaiserbill]

From the former Fort Klapperkop display mentioned earlier, here is another early mine detection vehicle.

Interesting.

I wonder where about in the development history this fits in?
Was it the first of it's kind?
By this, I mean the Chubby system, as the Pookie and Spinnekop were similarly tasked detection vehicles.

From what I can gather, this programme started in the 70's, and the entire system is called Chubby.

The mine proof detection vehicle was called the Meerkat, and was further developed into the Husky.

I'm trying figure out the story behind the mine detection vehicles.

I think Chubby was Dorbyl, and Spinnekop was Mechem.
I wonder if they were in competition to each other?
Is the timeframe essentially the same time? The Spinnekop was built in 1979 as far as I can tell, whilst the Chubby/Meerkat/Husky has its origins in the 70's too.

The CSIR developed the mine detectors that seem to have been used in these two vehicles.

It seems that Mechem had another vehicle even before the Spinnekop that used these detectors. This vehicle was called "Gees", roughly translated as "Ghost" or "Spirit".

I've not found anything else about this earlier "Gees" Mine Detection Vehicle on the internet unfortunately.

 

[sa_bushwar]

From F/B: This seems like a very early development model. Not sure if it was a mine detonation or detection vehicle, although the contraption on the front could have carried mine detection equipment. The front tire is non military spec. Rhodesian or SADF?