South African prototypes, projects, concepts, etc.

[kaiserbill]

More pics of that "rescued" proto 9mm smg.

Interesting size comparison to the std Uzi,known as a S1 in the SADF.

Is this a blowback or gas operated weapon?

 

[curious george]

Is this a blowback or gas operated weapon?

I seem to recall the guy saying its a blowback,wil try and find out from him.

 

[kaiserbill]

Is this a blowback or gas operated weapon?

I seem to recall the guy saying its a blowback,wil try and find out from him.

Thanks CG.

It looks like it has a modified (shortened) R4/5 lower reciever, but the top cover is not part of the R4/5 family. Add the slimness of the weapon above the barrel, and I'd say it is probably blowback, but of course, one can't be 100% sure.

 

[curious george]

It looks like it has a modified (shortened) R4/5 lower reciever, but the top cover is not part of the R4/5 family. Add the slimness of the weapon above the barrel, and I'd say it is probably blowback, but of course, one can't be 100% sure.

Vektor H5 lower.

 

[kaiserbill]

On page 3 reply 30 of this thread, we saw a railway vehicle as can be seen in the first pic below.
This has the SAR (South African Railway) logos on it, and is on display in Windhoek in Namibia.

I found on another forum another example of this vehicle as can be seen in the rest of the photos. This vehicle is near Johannesburg in South Africa, and is accompanied by two other different armoured railway vehicle types, of the service/work type and which are far more basic.
The middle photos date from around 2008, and then the last one is of the vehicle after it was restored a couple of years back, or around the time of the 2010 Soccer World Cup.

It was self propelled but could also be attached to trains travelling North from Windhoek, according to one description I've seen on the net.
So it appears to be a rail inspection vehicle that also could do escort work?

We also know now that at least two were made.

No idea who made them, but it is worth bearing in mind that SA Railways had extremely extensive and comprehensive engineering facilities, and indeed, was a major weapons manufacturer during WW2.
Of course, they could also have been made by one of the other military vehicle manufacturers.

 

[sa_bushwar]

I took these pictures in the late 1980's at the display that used to be at Fort Klapperkop in Pretoria. The series of MRV's that were displayed there, seemed to include a large number of prototypes.

Interesting vehicles.

At first they look like they have the standard Buffel troop compartment, but the Buffel compartment was a separate module to the driver cab, whereas these troop compartments and cabs are a single unit.

I thought perhaps they had Rhino, Bulldog, or Rinkhals cabs, but these are different from these above again.

Was there any context or additional info wherever these pics were found, SAbushwar?
Do you know whereabouts these pics were taken?

Perhaps Curious George is correct, and these are based on SAMIL 20 components?
Perhaps a Buffel replacement, like the Rhino and Bulldog were mooted to be, and which were also based on SAMIL 20 components?

I seem to recall that the point of the Rhino and Bulldog was to create a Buffel type vehicle, but using SAMIL 20 instead of Unimog components, so as to ensure better fleet/spares commonality.

So perhaps these two are from the same era as the Bulldog and Rhino?
One wonders if it is from the same era as that single pic (posted by curious George I think?) from earlier in the thread which was labelled as the "Wilderbeest", and which is posted again below?
This has differences from all the vehicles mentioned in this post, but also seems to have an open Buffel'esque troop compartment.

Was there an earlier official programme to replace the Buffel (apart from the Veldskoen)?

 

[sa_bushwar]

Here is the same vehicle many years later at the SAAF museum at AFB Zwartkops.

Can anyone ID these two Buffel variants?

 

[kaiserbill]

Very interesting SA Bushwar!

New prototypes which I've not seen nor heard of keep popping up.

The front and rear cab is a single unit, unlike the Buffel, as I thought from the other photo, so although obviously based on the Buffel troop compartment, it is different.
You took the pics in the late 1980's, which date these vehicles from before then.
As speculated earlier, I wonder if these are linked with the SAMIL-20 based Rhino and Bulldog vehicles in a programme to replace the Unimog based Buffel...

What is that vehicle behind it, with the multiple windows?
Did you take any other photos of these MRV vehicles you mention?

 

[sa_bushwar]

The SAMIL 20 vehicle is called the SIREB, see photo of nameplate on the vehicle.

The other is a Hippo MkII.

I will look for my other photos from the Klapperkop display.

Very interesting SA Bushwar!

New prototypes which I've not seen nor heard of keep popping up.

The front and rear cab is a single unit, unlike the Buffel, as I thought from the other photo, so although obviously based on the Buffel troop compartment, it is different.
You took the pics in the late 1980's, which date these vehicles from before then.
As speculated earlier, I wonder if these are linked with the SAMIL-20 based Rhino and Bulldog vehicles in a programme to replace the Unimog based Buffel...

What is that vehicle behind it, with the multiple windows?
Did you take any other photos of these MRV vehicles you mention?

 

[sa_bushwar]

...and here is the forerunner to the Mfezi.

 

[kaiserbill]

The SAMIL 20 vehicle is called the SIREB, see photo of nameplate on the vehicle.

The other is a Hippo MkII.

I will look for my other photos from the Klapperkop display.

Thanks for that SA Bushwar.

So we (well, me at least ;D ) now have a name for that vehicle, and it is confirmed as SAMIL 20 based.

Any other photos you have would be highly appreciated.

That Mfezi forerunner ambulance vehicle is interesting.
I wonder if it is Casspir based? It looks sort of similar to a Casspir prototype pic I saw a while back, unless my memory is playing tricks on me.

Then there was the Rinkhals ambulance, which was before the Mfezi.

Helmoed Romer Heitman says:

"The Rinkhals Mk1 evolved out of the monocoque Hippo MkII programme via the "Flossie", an armoured, mine protected ambulance developed at the instigation of SAMS and employing the same technology and concepts as the Hippo MkII. Although "Flossie" was not taken into service, it was the basis on which the Rinkhals was developed in 1982."

So, I wonder if that ambulance you posted is the "Flossie" prototype vehicle developed from the Hippo MkII (which you also have a pic of above), which was then developed into the Rinkhals. Which was then replaced by the Mfezi.

 

[curious george]

Very interesting SA Bushwar!

New prototypes which I've not seen nor heard of keep popping up.

Yes,its 20-30yrs later and we are page 61already,its it just awesome! ;D

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #894.
Interesting gun. Seems to use an Uzi mag. 9mm, bound to be blow-back. Who built this thing and why? It seems unlikely that the SA Army would have a requirement for such a somewhat old-fashioned SMG. Semi-auto for sale to civilians/security personnel?

 

[Herman]

Reply to post # 900New prototypes which I've not seen nor heard of keep popping up.

Yes. It seems that anybody with a hammer and welding torch was putting together armoured vehicles in the seventies and eighties!

 

[kaiserbill]

Reply to post # 900New prototypes which I've not seen nor heard of keep popping up.

Yes. It seems that anybody with a hammer and welding torch was putting together armoured vehicles in the seventies and eighties!

;D

Jokes apart, these SAMIL based vehicles were obviously part of a proper programme calling for tenders.

For example, I'd known for ages that the Bulldog and Rhino were SAMIL based, and that there was a move to standardise vehicles and components.
But I wasn't aware of other vehicle prototypes, so there must have been an official project calling for prototypes surely then, one which I've not been aware of before.

Otherwise companies wouldn't go to the expense of designing, constructing, and testing prototypes.
Herman, did you come across anything interesting, photos or info wise when you were at the armour museum, when you found that Rooikat with the strange turret?


SA Bushwar, found any more of those photos?

 

[sa_bushwar]

Not sure if these were posted before, but some more Buffel derivatives:

No 4 and 5 seen at SAAF Museum Zwartkops
No 6 and Rooikat seen at Armour Museum Bloemfontein

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #908.


Could the bottom vehicle ("snaake Rooikat turret") possibly be a driver training variant?

 

[kaiserbill]

Reply to post #908.


Could the bottom vehicle ("snaake Rooikat turret") possibly be a driver training variant?

I think this is that green Rooikat at 9:14 in this video.
(Video is from the Rooikat thread, and shows a few of the protoypes and concept vehicles, if you keep an eye out for them)

It doesn't have the square structure on top of it instead of the turret in the pic above and below, which is also a different colour.
So maybe that is a later addition?
The seating arrangement is strange though, as can be seen in SA Bushwars pic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8apUALybxWQ

 

[sa_bushwar]

I suspect the turret was designed to give prospective buyers a "fun ride", hence the comfortable seating arrangement, large windows, and intercom connection points for each seat.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Looks like a pretty standard mod to a driver training vehicle.

 

[Herman]

It'll go like the clappers 'cause the "turret"is much lighter than the standard item.

 

[curious george]

*from f/book-taken during Ops Protea

I have asked about these before,but this pic cleared up the origin of the vehicle.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #914


It seems to be an old Magirus Deutz Jupiter recovery vehicle to which somebody had fitted an armoured, presumably mine-proof, cab.

 

[kaiserbill]

*from f/book-taken during Ops Protea

I have asked about these before,but this pic cleared up the origin of the vehicle.

.

Looks like a Magirus Deutz with armoured mine proof cab, the concept forerunner to the fully armoured Bulperd featured earlier in this thread.

This one below is when Sandstone Estates, which has a outsource Preservation agreement with the School of Armour in Bloemfontein.

The Bulperd is based on a Mack, of which the SA Arrmy used in softskin and this armoured version.

 

[kaiserbill]

Sandstone was tasked with recovering 2 of the Macks for their own display, and 2 for the Armour museum, consisting of both Armoured Bulperd and softskin config.
The recovery was effected from 4 VRP (Vehicle Reserve Park) north of Pretoria.

I've no idea how many were used in service, but we know now that at least 2 of the armoured Bulperds are in existence.

Whilst browsing pics of the recovery, in the first pic, one can make out two or three interesting vehicles in the backround. I think they may either be the AC200 prototype vehicles as discussed earlier, or perhaps Ingwe vehicles.

I wonder if one can have a look around the place?

A set of pics at this link.

http://www.sandstone-estates.com/index.php/military-vehicles/40-military-vehicles/2674-co-operation-between-the-south-african-armour-museum-and-sht-goes-from-strength-to-strength

 

[kaiserbill]

Speaking of Sandstone, they seem to have almost 30 fully working locomotives, and almost 30km of track, as well as many armoured vehicles, some of which are prototypes.

Below is a link with a chap who has just spent 3 days there, with a bunch of photos.

Interesting is the Rooikat with the strange turret as featured here by our very own Herman.
The chap says that it is indeed fitted with an active defence system, which confirms those bumps I think. It was demonstrated or at least explained to him.

Also is that interesting and infamous Saracen with the large (90mm?) gun in a turret.

The one or two indistinct photos on the net before this generated some discussion. It is clear that the turret is too small to operate such a large gun, and now we can see that the mantlet is fixed and does not elevate or depress.
It also has different, larger wheels.
He has no idea what the story behind this vehicle is, but at least we also now know that it isn't a photoshop as previously thought to be.

Sandstone Estate looks to be well worth a visit, perhaps in conjunction with the Armour Museum, which seems to be relatively close by?

http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7396

 

[JFC Fuller]

At first glance that APS looks like a SAAB LEDS.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #918


Very impressive pictures, especially the Rooikat. I expect that the suggestions that the "warts" on the vehicle is part of an active defence system may very well be true. That never occurred to me. I wonder who the turret was designed for?


The Saracen with the 90mm tube is clearly a fake, designed to look impressive.


The normal tyres for the Saracen are 12 x 20. Two Saracen Mk 2's were tested by the British Army with larger, 14 x 20 tyres, in 1955, in Libya during the development of the reverse-flow cooling system. According to Bill Munro, in his book on the "Alvis Saracen Family", the larger tyres improved flotation over soft desert sand, reduced engine rpm and operating temperature and improved fuel consumption. It was recommended that these tyres be fitted, as well as the reverse flow cooling system, for Saracens intended to operate in hot climates. The Saracen with the "big gun" is fitted with 14 x 20 tyres, very common on various SADF vehicles, inclusing the Samil 50 and 100 and the Rooikat, amongst others.


South Africa had received Mk 1 Saracens and over-heating was a perennial problem. Ths SADF would have been better off with later vehicles, fitted with reverse flow cooling.


Somewhat off-topic: In my opinion the Saracen and Saladin vehicles were over-engineered, complex vehicles, with high maintenance requirements and generally spotty reliability. Some of the technical design features were also not good. The British Army would have been better off, imo, with vehicles based on the Coventry armoured car, built, in small numbers, in 1944 and 1945 but arriving too late to see action during WW2.

 

[kaiserbill]

I recall a question being asked here or on another forum about precisely which model Saracen South Africa operated. A gentleman thought that some South African Saracens had features only found on the Mk4, which remained a prototype.

Sandstone seem to list 2 or their Saracens as Mk2's.

http://www.sandstone-estates.com/index.php/military-vehicles/67-military-vehicles/999-military-vehicles-inventory

They also have an intrigueing reference to Magirus Deutz Samil 50 Armoured APC's on that list.

The SA Armour Museum say on their website that theirs is a Mk3, which was the model with the reverse flow cooling, according to wiki.

Also, if you look at the pic below, the furthest Saracen has been modified with armoured glass drivers windows. This seems to mirror the Ferrets, which were modified as prime movers and 106mm carriers for the paratroopers, and were also modified with larger, armoured glass driver viewpoints in a similar fashion.

Is this an indication that some of the Saracens did indeed go through the modification process mentioned in the late 1980's?

Again, the Armour museum webiste say that 270 vehicles were modified, upgraded, and refurbished by the South African Railways workshop in Uitenhage between 1979 and 1981.

 

[kaiserbill]

Some further digging.

It appears the initial 10 Saracens bought by SA for evaluation were Mk1's.

From what I can gather, the main order of 270 vehicles were the Mk3.

There is quite a bit of confusion, as the link below seems to show some SA Saracens have vehicle plates with Mk2 on them....

I recalled wrong about the fellow that thought the SA Saracens had certain features only found on the prototype Mk4. He was talking about the Saracen 88, which was also only in prototype form in 1988, yet the SA vehicles from earlier seem to have many if not all of the features.


A mystery...

An interesting thread about that:

http://hmvf.co.uk/forumvb/showthread.php?16817-Saracen-Build-up

The fellow was rebuilding an ex SADF Mk3 Saracen, and early in the thread bemoans the fact that little help is forthcoming.
Another poster points out that from what he can see from the pictures, the braking system has been radically altered, as well as the steering and electrics. It is commented on that the nose looks longer than the vanilla Saracen found outside of SA, so it is clear that the upgrades did proceed.


By the way, that discussion in the link above dates from 2010, the same time as this thread was started. He took the pic below, but didn't know what it was...

 

[kaiserbill]

Reply 643 and 645 on page 43 and 44 there is a picture of an as of yet unidentified vehicle.

After a careful look, this appears to be another picture of it snapped a few years back in one of the vehicle storage parks/scrap yards near Pretoria.

Still don't know the name or history of this vehicle.

 

[sa_bushwar]

Here is another picture of TFM 43

 

[kaiserbill]

Thanks SA Bushwar.

I assume then that TFM was the manufacturer?
They manufactured Casspirs and Mambas, and also developed the RG31 and RG32, before being swallowed up in the various mergers and takeovers.

Do you have any info on this vehicle?

 

[Herman]

Reply to posts 921/2


I expect that you are correct. Bill Munro suggests that SA was supplied with Saracen Mk 1 vehicles but it seems likely that the first 10 vehicles were indeed Mk 1's while the 270-280 imports were Mk 2 and/or 3 cars. SA never operated Saracens with reverse flow cooling. Saracens thus modified can be recocgnised by the "beehive" sitting on the bonnet, just infront of the driver's position and the cowl covering the front engine louvres.


It is not quite clear when the South African Saracens were modified/refurbished. There may have been more than one program with one taking place in the early eighteis and the other in the late eighties. Jane's Armour and Artillery states that the modification/refurbishment project took place between 1985 and 1988. It is also not clear what all was modified at that time. What I have read was that the wiring was replaced, the generator on the engine was replaced by an alternator, the nose was lengthened to allow different drive belts to be fitted to the engine, the cooling system was modified (over-heating and vapour locking were major problems with the SA Saracens), the front grill were made removeable to improve access to the engine bay and the brakes were modified. You also mentioned the steering. As far as I know, the replacement of the standard steel driving hatches with armoured glass windows such as seen on some modified Saracens and Ferrets in South Africa, was not part of the modification package but was done to some vehicles at a later time. I am not sure of this though.


The Saracen 88 was a modification offerered by the UK GKL company or group of companies. It retained the petrol Rolls Royce engine, like the SA version, and the rest of the modifications were apparently identical to those of the SA modified vehicles. The standard steel driver's shutters were retained. It seems as if GKL acquired one or two SA modified Saracens and offered a similar conversion on the international market. In the late eighties, a diesel engined conversion of the Saracen was developed in the UK, possibly by Alvis. Several prototypes of diesel Saracens were built, as well as similar diesel conversions of the Saladin and the Ferret. The availibilty of diesel conversion kits for these vehicles was announced in 1991 by A F Budge Ltd and the then Alvis company and a number of kits were sold to Indonesia. The engines used were turbocharged Perkins 5.8 liter, 6 cylinder units developing 180hp at 2800 rpm. The transmission and the rest of the drive train were left unmodified, as far as I know. To the best of my knowledge, no diesel conversions of Saracens were ever done in S.A.

 

[Herman]

As far as the long-barrelled Saracen is concerned, have a look at this:

http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_569396-Alvis-FV-603-Saracen-88.html

 

[curious george]

As far as the long-barrelled Saracen is concerned, have a look at this:

http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_569396-Alvis-FV-603-Saracen-88.html

Can anyone remember if the vehicle "starred" in "Blood diamond" or one of those? Somehow my mind remembers it in thay sort of context...?

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #928
I think there were Ratels in "Blood Diamonds".

 

[Herman]

Saracens have featured in a number of movies. A Saracen looks "right". The Ratel, for instance, looks like what it is: an armoured rtuck with a gun on it. A Saracen looks like a fighting vehicle and the sound of the straight 8 cylinder Rolls Royce with the whine of the (numerous) drive-line components is magnificent.

 

[kaiserbill]

Saracens have featured in a number of movies. A Saracen looks "right". The Ratel, for instance, looks like what it is: an armoured rtuck with a gun on it. A Saracen looks like a fighting vehicle and the sound of the straight 8 cylinder Rolls Royce with the whine of the (numerous) drive-line components is magnificent.

?

The Saracen is basically an APC, whilst the Ratel is an IFV.

Looking over the history, when the time came to replace the Saracen, the various APC's trialled were discarded and the Ratel developed precisely because it was decided to to go for an IFV.

The Ratel is more heavily armoured, far more heavily armed, is faster, has better off road abilities, longer range, and is almost twice the weight, but still has a better power to weight ratio.

It's considered to be one of, if not the first, proper wheeled IFV to enter service, and was the first IFV of any type to enter service with a proper commanders cupola offering 360 degree view for the commander. It was also the first in service with a dual feed cannon, allowing rapid selection of AP or HE.

Back to back seating with firing ports, 3 exit doors, and roof hatches that open outward and lock allowing "head-out" shooting with a degree of protection, rear side mounted engine...etc

Whilst it did utilise some commercial components, this was a practical consideration. It wouldn't be the last wheeled IFV to do so.

The fact that ex SADF Ratels have been recently exporte speaks volumes. Even the Casspir APC mounted more offensive firepower than a Saracen, and it was used as a de facto IFV.

Unless you are speaking about purely its looks? ;D

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #931.


You are right about the features of the Ratel. Technically however, the Ratel chassis is low tech, significantly simpler than the Saracen, the French VAB and the Brazilian Sucuri from the same era, for example. It is simply an armoured hull on top of three MAN off-road truck axles, fitted with a commercial Büssing truck engine and an off the shelf COTS/MOTS truck type automatic transmission. The turret is derived from that of the AML/Eland and is unpowered. please note: THESE FEATURES ARE NOT NECESSARILY BAD! The use of proven commercial components resulted in a highly reliable and long-lived vehicle, low maintenance, easy to service and repair and with wide availability of spare parts. If one looks at the Saracen for instance: the whole thing is a custom built military vehicle. This means purpose designed suspension and drive-line components, etc. This is expensive, spares can only be sourced from the manufacturer and without the benefit of extensive commercial service, reliability is often not very good. The reason to develop a multi-wheel vehicle with independent suspension, equally-spaced wheels and a so-called H-type drive line lay-out, like the Saracen, was to obtain the greatest possible terrain mobility, especially over soft (European) ground surfaces and to allow the lowest possible roof line. These features were not required by the South Africans. Ground surface is generally hard in the African bush and increased vehicle height more of an advantage than a disadvantage. Extreme reliability and serviceability were premium requirements for the Ratel and these were achieven by using proven commercial components.


It has been claimed that the Ratel was the first wheeled infantry fighting vehicle. It was certainly the most heavily armed wheeled APC at that time but conceptually, it was not really that much different to the OT 64 or the BTR 60P, both armed with 14.5mm machine guns, both of which entered service in the sixties. The Ratel was significantly larger and heavier than both these vehicles, was more heavily armed and was most certainly superior as IFV.


My comment about the Saracen looking right was no more than that. It is a fine looking vehicle with the closely spaced wheels, low bonnet line, etc. It is most certainly not in the same class as the Ratel as a fighting vehicle.