Secret Stealth VTOL Transport - "Senior Citizen"

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sublight

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Firefly 2 said:
sublight said:
Stargazer, may I ask where you got the following verbiage?

As it had to be invisible to radar, infrared and acoustic sensors (even to the naked eye), the ASALT/SENIOR CITIZEN is something of a technological challenge. The aircraft is of triangular shape and fitted with three lights of variable intensity, positioned on each of the three angles. Their purpose may be to conceal the aircraft's true shape at night. In daytime, other lights may be used in greater number to hide the plane, making it invisible beyond 3 kilometers. More recent information has transpired about SENIOR CITIZEN. In 1990, additional flight testing is said to have taken place in Tehachapi Mountains, near Northrop's Tejon Canyon microwave research center. Witnesses describe a flat, triangular aircraft with rounded nose and leading edge. The example observed presented a black area in its middle.

Because if that info is correct, then this is very likely the Senior Citizen...
Well... The craft in the 1990 Belgian UFO wave did do some incredible manoeuvres on this vid, so I doubt it would have been a transport aircraft.
No it didn't. The Belgian F16's never made visual contact with the craft in question. All of the supposed "maneuvers" were only on their radar screens. Are the F16 radars we sold to the Belgians "spoof proof"?
 

quellish

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sublight said:
Regardless of how odd it looks, thousands of people saw the craft in that picture. It matches up rather nicely with what stargazer posted.
Thousands of people have seen Elvis, that doesn't mean it was him.

And what would be the reasoning behind the bright lights on it? To blind anyone it might land on?
 

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quellish said:
And what would be the reasoning behind the bright lights on it? To blind anyone it might land on?
In a sense, yes. It is my opinion that the thing was a hoax... probably a balloon/blimp sorta thing built by someone with more money and free time than sense. A dark, quiet balloon at night might go unseen. Put some lights on it, and viola, everyone sees it and many freak out. A pity this occured over European cities rather than, say, the rural US or South Central Los Angeles. It would have had so many bullet holes and/or shotgun blasts that it would've come down shortly, and we'd be done with it.
 
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sublight

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Orionblamblam said:
quellish said:
And what would be the reasoning behind the bright lights on it? To blind anyone it might land on?
In a sense, yes. It is my opinion that the thing was a hoax... probably a balloon/blimp sorta thing built by someone with more money and free time than sense. A dark, quiet balloon at night might go unseen. Put some lights on it, and viola, everyone sees it and many freak out. A pity this occured over European cities rather than, say, the rural US or South Central Los Angeles. It would have had so many bullet holes and/or shotgun blasts that it would've come down shortly, and we'd be done with it.
The dates mesh really spectacularly with the fall of the wall and collapse of the East German government. That is incredibly coincidental timing for a hoax.
Whoever the hoaxers are, they appear to be skilled in spoofing the radar of F16's.... B)
 

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sublight said:
Firefly 2 said:
sublight said:
Stargazer, may I ask where you got the following verbiage?

As it had to be invisible to radar, infrared and acoustic sensors (even to the naked eye), the ASALT/SENIOR CITIZEN is something of a technological challenge. The aircraft is of triangular shape and fitted with three lights of variable intensity, positioned on each of the three angles. Their purpose may be to conceal the aircraft's true shape at night. In daytime, other lights may be used in greater number to hide the plane, making it invisible beyond 3 kilometers. More recent information has transpired about SENIOR CITIZEN. In 1990, additional flight testing is said to have taken place in Tehachapi Mountains, near Northrop's Tejon Canyon microwave research center. Witnesses describe a flat, triangular aircraft with rounded nose and leading edge. The example observed presented a black area in its middle.

Because if that info is correct, then this is very likely the Senior Citizen...
Well... The craft in the 1990 Belgian UFO wave did do some incredible manoeuvres on this vid, so I doubt it would have been a transport aircraft.
No it didn't. The Belgian F16's never made visual contact with the craft in question. All of the supposed "maneuvers" were only on their radar screens. Are the F16 radars we sold to the Belgians "spoof proof"?
No, the radars you sold us were of course nowhere near "spoof proof" ( F16A standard, within an airframe built by Sabca, I happen to live quite closely to the Sabca factory, but that's not relevant). You are rather wrong in stating that these manoeuvres where only witnessed on a radar screen.
I was a 9 year old kid at the time, but I distinctively remember a vid where said triangle was rotating around it own axis at a slow rate. I fail to locate it on youtube, but I doubt my memory fails me on this part, as this( the First Belgian UFO wave) was the event that sparked my obsession with the secret and the bizarre. Numerous eyewitnesses also claimed that the triangles disappeared at almost unimaginable speeds. A VTOL transport would need time to transit from a hovering to a high speed condition. This assumption makes me believe that the Belgian Triangle was not Senior Citizen, but something else, with higher performance ( assuming that,of course, said eyewitnesses were accurate in their assessment of breakaway speeds, and assuming that Senior Citizen's performance follows the logic of other VTOL planes).
Query: Were you aggravated by my remark? If so, why? I doubt that my original post contained something aggravating.
 

quellish

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Firefly 2 said:
No, the radars you sold us were of course nowhere near "spoof proof" ( F16A standard, within an airframe built by Sabca, I happen to live quite closely to the Sabca factory, but that's not relevant). You are rather wrong in stating that these manoeuvres where only witnessed on a radar screen.
I was a 9 year old kid at the time, but I distinctively remember a vid where said triangle was rotating around it own axis at a slow rate. I fail to locate it on youtube, but I doubt my memory fails me on this part, as this( the First Belgian UFO wave) was the event that sparked my obsession with the secret and the bizarre. Numerous eyewitnesses also claimed that the triangles disappeared at almost unimaginable speeds. A VTOL transport would need time to transit from a hovering to a high speed condition. This assumption makes me believe that the Belgian Triangle was not Senior Citizen, but something else, with higher performance ( assuming that,of course, said eyewitnesses were accurate in their assessment of breakaway speeds, and assuming that Senior Citizen's performance follows the logic of other VTOL planes).
Query: Were you aggravated by my remark? If so, why? I doubt that my original post contained something aggravating.
Observers often report flying "things" disappearing at impossible speeds. This is almost always due to whatever they are seeing changing angles, etc. rather than the thing actually moving off at high speed. One of many reasons you have to take any observer's report with a grain of salt. Our mammalian predator brains are very good at making inferences for us.

That was totally an espresso machine.

I'd have to check, but I do not think SENIOR CITIZEN received enough money prior to 1990 to have produced an vehicle. This would easily rule out flights over Belgium.
 

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It wasn't an expresso, but definitely the Sabca/Fritel XRA-2A.
 
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Firefly 2 said:
No, the radars you sold us were of course nowhere near "spoof proof" ( F16A standard, within an airframe built by Sabca, I happen to live quite closely to the Sabca factory, but that's not relevant). You are rather wrong in stating that these manoeuvres where only witnessed on a radar screen.
I was a 9 year old kid at the time, but I distinctively remember a vid where said triangle was rotating around it own axis at a slow rate. I fail to locate it on youtube, but I doubt my memory fails me on this part, as this( the First Belgian UFO wave) was the event that sparked my obsession with the secret and the bizarre. Numerous eyewitnesses also claimed that the triangles disappeared at almost unimaginable speeds. A VTOL transport would need time to transit from a hovering to a high speed condition. This assumption makes me believe that the Belgian Triangle was not Senior Citizen, but something else, with higher performance ( assuming that,of course, said eyewitnesses were accurate in their assessment of breakaway speeds, and assuming that Senior Citizen's performance follows the logic of other VTOL planes).
Query: Were you aggravated by my remark? If so, why? I doubt that my original post contained something aggravating.
I am not aggravated by anything that you've said. At least we can agree that is was not an espresso machine.

I don't want to derail the "Senior Citizen" thread so I will say in closing that I believe if this is not in fact the "Senior Citizen" product then its most definitely a byproduct of a sister program. I'd like to further that by putting up a wager that when forum members finally dig up its origins that not only is it "made in USA", but its a Northrup craft. If I am wrong I will cough up $200 to the Secret Projects Forum paypal account. B)
 

Abraham Gubler

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sublight said:
I'd like to further that by putting up a wager that when forum members finally dig up its origins that not only is it "made in USA", but its a Northrup craft. If I am wrong I will cough up $200 to the Secret Projects Forum paypal account. B)
Can you add inflation indexation to your offer? Because it might be some time until everything from 1989 is declassified and I would hate to see Overscan miss out on lost value. Perhaps it would be better if you just gave him the money now and if the slightest shred of evidence arises otherwise he can refund you?

To me it’s obvious that this thing if actually real and airborne is just the delta wing of an ultralight (TrikeBuggy Delta), hang glider or kite with some lights on each corner. Probably not even a prank just some harmless home building pilot trying to get some light for safe night landing.

As to the timing the lack of Belgium’s geographic centrality to anything associated with the fall of Berlin Wall makes a mockery of this argument. Especially since no one in between Belgium and the Iron Curtain (ie south west Germany) saw the same thing.
 

quellish

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sublight said:
I am not aggravated by anything that you've said. At least we can agree that is was not an espresso machine.
I see nothing that indicates it was not.

And yes, 0401316F did not have enough funding to have produced a vehicle that early, sorry.
I'm still looking around for the Lockheed SENIOR CITIZEN image I had at one point, but am not hopeful. It may be on one of several older SCSI drives in storage. If you made an F-23 transport, it would look a lot like this thing.
 

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quellish said:
And yes, 0401316F did not have enough funding to have produced a vehicle that early, sorry.
In all DoD funding logic, yes, but since Bird of Prey was revealed, we know better. A company can develop a program for the government on private funds and voilà! The program can remain secret for 10 years without one line in defense budgets!

quellish said:
If you made an F-23 transport, it would look a lot like this thing.
Precisely. Hence the possible Northrop connection. Besides I seem to remember from another thread here that some of the projects that were developed by Northrop at the time towards a stealth transport proposal were F-23ish in design. All the rumors circa 1989 about the would be "Northrop TR-3A Manta" may have some basis in reality after all... No smoke without a fire?
 

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Stargazer2006 said:
All the rumors circa 1989 about the would be "Northrop TR-3A Manta" may have some basis in reality after all...
As I understand it, the "TR-3" came about because someone overheard someone else talking about the "Tier 3" UAV, and got the spelling wrong. Although Wiki claims that the timeline is wrong for this explanation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TR-3A_Black_Manta)..... ???

Regards & all,

Thomas L. Nielsen
Luxembourg
 

Michel Van

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Ohh boy the Belgium 1989 UFO wave hits "Senior Citizen"...

sorry Overscan, but as eyewitness i have to speak
Orionbambam:
In a sense, yes. It is my opinion that the thing was a hoax... probably a balloon/blimp sorta thing b
i go for the Blimp, suspects ?
next to one horse town Eupen is located the RWTH Aachen University
with first-class Faculty of Aeronautics and Aerospace Engineering

from Wat i viewed, it was three light in a triangle formation with a four in middle
I look it from side in a low angel, it move in pedestrian speed
if it made a sound it was more quiet as noise of the traffic

like this picture only with the lights and rest in black
that rule out a Paraglider with engine, you hear them befor you see them
also a Paraglider without a engine i rule out
because in cold air of November 1989 so a glider fall fast down
also ULA because the Triangle was to slow for a ULA


there even eyewitness report by police !
like a police patrol who chase one of the Triangles from German border until cottage of Balen
they notice first a headlight from Sky that put a spot in bright daylight
this headlight goes out and they see a "big" Triangle in sky moving slow true Sky
Wat happen next is a wild chase cross country until Balen
were the Triangle stop from time to time and used that headlight, Wat Police use to catch up
another eyewitness in Balen was putting his trash in backyard, as the headlight hit his backyard
some neighbors claim it was huge like a Boeing 747, other say size of house
it very difficult evaluate the real size in night sky with out a comparable
this headlight give indication the Triangle has a Crew also is craft able to hover in sky quiet.
again sounds more like Blimp as Aircraft

All of the police report are filed and stored in Liege, strange they nickname them "the X-Files" :D

sublight:
The Belgian F16's never made visual contact
odd one of F-16 had a Video camera on board and the recording was show for the press
the Video show some lights in the sky, but until more details become clear,
the Belgian Airforce General turn the VHS off with words "That's all folks" (in french)...

So let put piece together
Slow over sky, able to hover, is almost quited and must have a Pilot
must be a Blimp with electric motors

Speculation:
that was a Blimp build from students RWTH Aachen University
made test flight Wat wend out from controll with cross over Belgium border
they return see in Media Wat happend and destroy the Blimp
so they have not trouble with authorities, special with Belgium's
 
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sublight

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I really think the lights serve as some sort of compass ghost type of visual signature reduction.

Notice Michel said it "came from the German border"... Ahem... B)
 

Michel Van

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sublight said:
I really think the lights serve as some sort of compass ghost type of visual signature reduction.

Notice Michel said it "came from the German border"... Ahem... B)
on Belgium streets and highways, there fully illuminated at night ! (can be see from space B) )
http://izismile.com/img/img2/20090807/cities_at_night_07.jpg
the trajectory of Triangle was along to highways A3 (E40) Aachen-Liege-Brussels
it was first seen near Hauset north of A3 near Wallhorn it over fly the Highway
past over sky of town Eupen, moved to Balen where it fly over Highway again

the illuminated Highway at night, is like very BIG Roadsign
http://www.fotothing.com/photos/4f9/4f945f817ac16c537bf67e223dea8943.jpg
 
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sublight

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Abraham Gubler said:
...it might be some time until everything from 1989 is declassified.....
Then again, maybe not that long....
http://www.archives.gov/declassification/faqs.html

"What is the Purpose of the NDC?"
"The NDC will shorten the amount of time that it takes to declassify a document."
 
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sublight

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Sentinel Chicken said:
Several years ago I had read an article somewhere about some work on a neutral buoyancy aircraft that combined a flying wing planform with helium gas cells- it was supposed to be stealthy and very quiet and combined aspects of airships with aircraft.
That sounds just like what Michel has described.....
 

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Also let's not forget that Lockheed has patents for blimps of different kinds, including stealth blimps. There was a rumor about a blimp the size of a football field at some point, and some people claimed it could be that. And the observers of that blimp also mentioned bright lights at the tips of that thing.
 

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sublight said:
I really think the lights serve as some sort of compass ghost type of visual signature reduction.

Notice Michel said it "came from the German border"... Ahem... B)
Belgium is quite a small country, and Aachen is really close to the German border. Come to think of it: by US standards every single point in Belgium is close to some border or other.

Wouter
Zaventem, Belgium
 

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From the points inwhich the vehicle was sighted moving, tracing it directly backwards, it may have departed from the NATO airbase Geilenkirchen. Its an E-3 airbase with large hangers. The vehicle's route may suggest that it was moving towards England (also the location of many of these sightings).

A recent defense industry article suggest that a special operations stealth troop transport is needed and would follow work done by others (reducing the time to field such a vehicle).

"A SOF program would probably follow on larger efforts in this realm, taking advantage of work the services have done elsewhere so it might not take us as long as [it] takes them," Vickers said. http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4528377

This leads me to think that the vehicle sighted may be a demonstrator or a scaled down vehicle with degraded capabilities, not currently meeting the SOF demands/requirements.
 

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I lean toward this being a blimp or a slightly "Heavier than Air Vehicle." I remember those Lockheed drawings and still have them of the deltawing "stealth" blimps. I also remember the Aeron designs and there was also a designer in England proposing a hybrid flying wing airship as a cargo plane. I remember a lot of this activity in the late 70's, early 80's and then all the info on it just stopped. This leads to believe it went black and that some demonstrators were built. I've also read some other "reported sightings" that indeed lead me to believe there has been deltawinged and flying wing LTA or hybrid aircraft flown.

As for the ATC guys seeing them shoot off on RADAR at speeds no known aircraft can perform, I've always just thought that was spoofing and was done to make the scrambled aircraft go looking in the wrong place for them.
 

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Actually I can't, as they're in my books or cutouts from magazine articles and I don't have a way to hook up my scanner atm. I'm sure they're already here or on the net somewhere. Just Google "Stealth Blimp" and you'll see some. This is the one I recall the most, the Lockheed Stealth Blimp, which projects a starfield on the bottom of it to camouflage it at night.

In fact, I remember back in the 1980's, my Mom used to watch Unsolved Mysteries and I used to watch their UFO episodes, because I figured most of what was being reported were just aircraft people couldn't identify. I remember one sighting happened on Long Island near Grumman, where a flying wing, V-shaped, giant UFO flew over their house. The witnesses could see the "girder structure" as it went overhead, but it was moving too slowly and too silently to be "Earth" technology! Um, no. It's called LTA you dolts.

There was also another episode where, reportedly, a giant triangular ship was being "chased" (I would say escorted) by U.S. Army Helicopters and it went right over a family in a car and I think one of them got out and suffered burns when it went overhead and had some sort of radiation poisoning or cancer as a result? I just figured it was a malfunctioning blimp that was either nuclear powered, to stay aloft, unmanned, for long periods of time, or had a giant RADAR array that was malfunctioning and irradiated them. Of course, with an aperture that big, it must not have been at full power or they would have been cooked.

That's assuming any of them are true, but I usually check UFO sites for clues to classified aircraft sitings. In fact, I read one that was reported from near Stone Henge, where someone there also saw a giant black triangle moving slowly overhead. But the witness had the sense to state that it was moving towards Boscombe Downe, which is just to the east of Stone Henge IIRC, and he said, "It sounded like a blimp." Bingo, we have a winner...

Of course, I can't say if any of those reports aren't pranks, but when it comes to large triangular aircraft sitings, you know where my money is...
 

quellish

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Sundog said:
Actually I can't, as they're in my books or cutouts from magazine articles and I don't have a way to hook up my scanner atm. I'm sure they're already here or on the net somewhere. Just Google "Stealth Blimp" and you'll see some. This is the one I recall the most, the Lockheed Stealth Blimp, which projects a starfield on the bottom of it to camouflage it at night.
AARS/QUARTZ/Tier III had a system like this, and if a demonstrator flew it is the most likely source of the "stealth blimp" reports. The size, shape, time period, and capabilities match.
 

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quellish said:
AARS/QUARTZ/Tier III had a system like this, and if a demonstrator flew it is the most likely source of the "stealth blimp" reports. The size, shape, time period, and capabilities match.
It could bend light? Did it also ask if you wanted candy?
 

quellish

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SOC said:
It could bend light? Did it also ask if you wanted candy?
No, it could change the contrast and color of the aircraft in some places, and that was managed by the defensive system. It did not work with their payload's apertures, for example, and in areas where edges or shadows would be defined under normal conditions there were more panel elements than the rest of the aircraft. It was not at all like an LCD screen as some have described. More of a countershading/color matching.
And I do not want candy. I want espresso.

Of course, this is all hearsay :)
 

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Triancular buoyancy / aerodynamic lift craft
http://www.aereon.com/

Cardington is an airship shed location in southern England that has been active with numerous projects during the years
http://www.airshipsonline.com/sheds/Cardington.htm
 

Mr London 24/7

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mz said:
...Cardington is an airship shed location in southern England that has been active with numerous projects during the years
http://www.airshipsonline.com/sheds/Cardington.htm
Those big ol' sheds are way too public for any nefarious goings on though....
 

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mr_london_247 said:
mz said:
...Cardington is an airship shed location in southern England that has been active with numerous projects during the years
http://www.airshipsonline.com/sheds/Cardington.htm
Those big ol' sheds are way too public for any nefarious goings on though....
Probably true, just pointing out that there has been some ongoing airship activity in southern England - for example Lockheed's Walrus or whatever it's called seems to be a version of the british Skycat / Skykitten. I wouldn't be surprised if these airship experts would have tested some more secret stuff... Not necessarily at the home shed but potentially close by. Belgium though sounds quite far.
 

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...truly generic image I guess
 

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Smells a bit like disinformation or a generic nonce design to me.
 

quellish

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Flateric posted this bio on the STAV thread which has some relevance here:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,2681.msg21577.html#msg21577
"After that he worked on an advanced technology demonstrator competition and led the aerodynamic design, analysis, and test activities. Mr. Komadina then for several years led all of the flight sciences activities for an advanced transport technology program, many internal technology R&D programs, and the Unmanned Combat Air Vehicle (UCAV) program"

Assuming the bio is somewhat chronological, that would put the "advanced transport technology" program around the time that SENIOR CITIZEN was active.
 

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dannydale said:
Smells a bit like disinformation or a generic nonce design to me.
I think a safer bet is that they went to the contractor who does their slides (everybody in DoD hires a contractor to do their PowerPoint for them) and said "give us a cool looking stealthy transport aircraft that doesn't look like anything else." That might qualify as "disinformation," but not the active kind. They have artists to generate generic stuff like that for them.
 

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found by Hesham in 1993 Bill Sweetman's article in PopSci
http://books.google.com.eg/books?id=3oRpYBVRP7wC&pg=PA65&dq=lockheed+astovl&hl=ar&ei=dKIcTNmcIcngOMDbxPUL&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
 

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flateric

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found original source of top drawing in early 80s Lockheed Horizons along with another interesting assault transport concept (and other one not so exciting)
needless to say, it was not 'Boeing's', but Lockheed's - so long-time mystery why two drawings of the same thing were labelled differently, is solved
stay tuned till evening
 

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dannydale

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What the Christ? Cute design, but that thing doesn't look like any kind of viable VTOL transport ship. It looks like a hypersonic waverider complete with upturned wingtips like that Cockrell Waverider that someone then installed liftfans and an auxiliary propulsion engine on. Where's the ramp and the cargo hold on this thing? Fuel Fraction? Takeoff speed?

I see the only way we get viable hypersonic VTOL aerospace vehicles is the same thing that gets us a working SSTO ship: Fusion Power powered by hydrogen/boron11 reactions in dense plasma focus or polywell reactors. No chemical energy regime I know of will accomplish this with anything remotely resembling a good mass fraction or cost per flight. Not even triethylborane! I'm afraid this looks more like a G.I. Joe™ type thing than anything that stands a chance of being more than a paper propaganda piece for acquiring more DoD funding. Otherwise, it looks like it belongs on Luftwaffe 1996! :D
 
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