Rooikat Armoured Car

[Herman]

Reply to post #157.


Thanks. Clearly different guns. The M32 had a bigger cartridge, longer barrel and was rated for higher pressure. The M1 was rated to be approximately equivalent in power to the 77mm HV gun of the Comet and significantly less powerful than the 17 pounder. The M32 will be in approximately the same class as the 17 pounder and the Oto 76/62 (and Rooikat's GT4).

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #154.
Strictly speaking you are correct that the Rooikat entered service before the Centauro but the difference is marginal.


Rooikat: The first Rooikat vehicles were produced in 1989 and the car entered service with the SADF in 1990.


Centauro: 10 preproduction vehicles produced starting in 1989, production in 1990 and it entered service in 1991.

 

[Herman]

I am not sure when the Rooikat 105 was first shown. According to Jane's it was developed specifically for the export market, starting in 1990. As we all know, it has not been sold. I think the problem is that the market for a large armoured car armed with a tank gun is quite limited. The French have always been exponents of armoured cars but they seem to be satisfied with the AMX 10RC although they have 105mm VEXTRA version available, if required. The Italians have been quite succesful with the Centauro for themselves and for Spain. I don't offhand know of any other operators, aside from the Chinese, who operate this kind of vehicle.

 

[compton_effect]

What about the new Japanese Maneuver Combat Vehicle?

 

[Herman]

Quite correct. This is now in production, I believe. Similar in size to the Centauro and Rooikat.


The Rooikat with the new turret with autoloader (I suppose) and three man crew may be a cut above the other two. The specifications and capabilities of the new turret are however still largely unknown, afaik.

 

[Herman]

http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7396&start=30


Forget about the silly mock gun on the Saracen. The photo's of the new Rooikat turret are very good.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7396&start=30


Forget about the silly mock gun on the Saracen. The photo's of the new Rooikat turret are very good.

Re that Saracen with the fake gun barrel on the turret I remember seeing a model of this version a long time ago as a kid. I've never seen any reference to it in various books about AFVs and the like and this photo of the South African model is the first confirmation I've seen of my childhood memories. This Saracen had a larger than normal turret and mounted where the fake gun barrel is now was a .50 calibre Browning machine-gun. I seem to recall the Australian Army version had a .50 with the full pierced barrel shroud like the aircraft .50s. On the other side of the turret front was a .30 Browning MG and on either side of the turret were a pair of ENTAC missiles. It was a guided weapons version of the Saracen used by the anti tank troop of an armoured cavalry regiment. I would be interested if there are any details from South Africa. It would appear to be a version used by Saladin/Saracen users who also used ENTAC missiles. A list which includes Australia and South Africa.

 

[Herman]

Reply to #168.
I belive the Saracen shown is privately owned and the turret with cut-off 90mm gun barrel was cobbled together and stuck on top of the vehicle purely for "cosmetic" purposes. S.A. did indeed operate the ENTAC but the only version I have ever seen was a Jeep C5 or C6 with the missiles mounted on either side.
South Africa's Saracens never seemed to have found their place. They were not used in the Operational Area (would have been useful in 1975-1968, imo, although they were probably more or less unserviceable at that time), then they were used by the Police, then back to the Army, etc. Extensively upgraded during the mid-eighties but the petrol engine was, surprisingly, retained. I would have thought that the Deutz BF6L913 engine, the turbocharged version of the engine used in the SAMIL 20 Mk. 1, would have been an admirable power plant for a diesel Saracen.

 

[Matt R.]

Reply to post #155.


Correct Matt, but as I noted in a previous post, the AMX-RC armed with the NATO compatible 105mm SLR gun was not produced in significant numbers.

Fair enough.
I failed to understand what you meant in the first place. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Matt R.]

Reply to post #152.
A prototype of the AMX 10-RC was built with the Rheinmetall Rh-105-11 SLR (Super Low Recoil) gun, fitted into a modified version of the original turret, in the late eighties. This gun fires all ammunition suitable for the standard 105mm L7 gun. The gun weighs 1380kg, is fitted with a recoil brake with an efficiency of 35% and it has a normal recoil length of 925mm and a recoil force of 110kN. It was suggested by Rheinmetall that the French replace the 105mm F2 MECA guns on the armoured cars with this, much more powerful gun, but the latter decided to keep the original gun. The SLR gun was also mounted in Mowag Shark 8x8 prototype and the Swedish Ikv light tank.

I was somewhat familiar with the Rheinmetall Rh-105 gun in its different avatars, but I wasn't aware that the Rh-105-11 was actually fitted to the TK-105 turret.

I find this upgrade all the more intriguing as I have been inside the AMX-10 RC quite a few times and I don't quite see how the existing turret could arrange a gun with a recoil length of 925 mm. There simply doesn't seem to be enough room in there.

As a matter of fact, the original 105mm F2 gun (TK-105 turret) and the 105mm G2 gun (TGG-/TML-105 turret) both had a 600 mm recoil length and I would have thought the Rh-105-20 (540 mm recoil length, 200 kN recoil force, i.e. similar to the 214 kN recoil force of the 105mm G2) to be more compatible with the envelope of the existing turret.

Would you happen to have more details on this prototype, e.g. was it simply meant to study the architectural integration of the Rh-105 gun into the existing turret or was it also test-fired on the AMX-10 RC chassis ? A picture showing the upgrade (if any available) would be also be very interesting (google didn't return any results).

Regards.

Matt.

 

[Matt R.]

Back to Rooikat :

In a French publication (RAIDS HS n°20 by Marc Chassillan), one may find a picture and a line drawing showing a Rooikat equipped with the Bofors 40mm two-man turret of the Swedish CV9040.

I don't think this variant has been discussed so far, and I was wondering whether someone could provide more details, e.g. : when ? photoshop, mock-up or actual protoype ? etc...

Thanks in advance.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #171.
Regarding the AMX-10RC turret fitted with the Rheinmetall 105mm gun: black and white photograph in Janes' Armour and Artillery 1989-90. The turret is on a display mounting and the photograph was taken at a show, possibly Satory. Long, multi-baffle muzzle brake. The caption states that it was unveiled in 1987 and that the turret featured a Rheinmetall low recoil gun. It does not mention the SLR and I suspect the info I posted was incorrect. The gun featured was probably, as you suggest, the Rh 105-20 with a recoil length of 540mm, which would fit the turret. This gun has a nominal recoil energy of 200 kN which, I suspect, when fired in the 16 ton AMX-10RC, will cause, nose-bleeds, loss of fillings and much taking of the Lord's name in vain[/size]!

 

[Herman]

Reply to post number 172:


The question immediately arises: why, where and by whom? Afaik the CV9040 is only used by Sweden? The export vehicles are fitted with 35mm or 30mm guns. Would such a marriage take place in SA, i.e. a turret shipped to SA or in Sweden, i.e. Rooikat chassis shipped to Sweden? Would be a very interesting reconnaissance vehicle though: potent gun-turret combination. Who would be interested in such a thing however? Middle-Eastern country? May just be fan-fiction.


Does anybody know what the turret ring diameter of the Rooikat is? My guess would be around 1.8 meter.

 

[Herman]

The Engesa Sucuri EE17 was the first effort by Engesa to build a large, powerfully armed armoured car. The car was fitted with the FL-12 osciliating turret and 105mm gun from the AMX-13 tank. The vehicle weighed about 17 tons. Something like this would also have been achieveable for South Africa in the late seventies or early eighties. The Rooikat is in a totally different class however, more comparable to the later Sucuri II (EE-18).

 

[Herman]

The Brazialian Sucuri II prototype was produced by Engesa in 1987. 18.500kg, 380hp, 105mm NATO type gun. The low recoil gun was produced by Oto Melara. By this time, a number of companies were offering low recoil cersions of the 105mm gun, including Rheinmetall, Oto Melara and Royal Ordnance (Cadillac Gage turret). The Sucuri was never produced and the company folded in 1993.

 

[Herman]

The Cadilac Gage V 600 armoured car. Similar in size to the above Sucuri II, introduced round and about the same time and also not produced in any numbers, as far as I know.

 

[Herman]

 

[Rickshaw]

What is the trainable, four barrelled projector on the turret rear?

I don't like the use of vertical faces on the magazine front, behind the crew hatches on the turret. I wonder why they were chosen over a sloping face?

 

[Herman]

Reply to number #179


I've been looking at exactly the same things. Could the 4-barrelled thingy on top of the turret be part of the close-in defence system, or is it a smoke grenade discharger?


I agree that the flat, vertical surfaces at the front of the turret are terrible shot traps. They are probably dictated by the contents of the turret (autoloader and magazines). To preserve the armour integrity, those plates will have to very thick (and heavy).

 

[Herman]

Actually, the angle between the vertical, flat surfaces at the front of the turret is very poor from a shot trap point of view. It seems unnecessary to position the crew members so low in the turret. Putting the hatches level with the top of the turret will give the commander a better all round view and will allow the armour at the fron of the turret to be sloped.

 

[kaiserbill]

It seems to be consensus that the projector on top of that new Rooikat 105mm (auto loading?) turret is part the LEDS-150 active defence system. The protuberances sticking out all over the vehicle might also be part of that system.


A note on the other foreign vehicles with large guns...... apart from other probable issues, I'd wager none of them would have come close to meeting South Africa's stringent mine protection requirements that were part of the combat vehicle requirements.

 

[kaiserbill]

Back to Rooikat :

In a French publication (RAIDS HS n°20 by Marc Chassillan), one may find a picture and a line drawing showing a Rooikat equipped with the Bofors 40mm two-man turret of the Swedish CV9040.

I don't think this variant has been discussed so far, and I was wondering whether someone could provide more details, e.g. : when ? photoshop, mock-up or actual protoype ? etc...

Thanks in advance.

Do you have a picture of this?

 

[kaiserbill]

http://www.saairforce.co.za/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=7396&start=30


Forget about the silly mock gun on the Saracen. The photo's of the new Rooikat turret are very good.

Re that Saracen with the fake gun barrel on the turret I remember seeing a model of this version a long time ago as a kid. I've never seen any reference to it in various books about AFVs and the like and this photo of the South African model is the first confirmation I've seen of my childhood memories. This Saracen had a larger than normal turret and mounted where the fake gun barrel is now was a .50 calibre Browning machine-gun. I seem to recall the Australian Army version had a .50 with the full pierced barrel shroud like the aircraft .50s. On the other side of the turret front was a .30 Browning MG and on either side of the turret were a pair of ENTAC missiles. It was a guided weapons version of the Saracen used by the anti tank troop of an armoured cavalry regiment. I would be interested if there are any details from South Africa. It would appear to be a version used by Saladin/Saracen users who also used ENTAC missiles. A list which includes Australia and South Africa.

Abe, I think I had a chat to another fellow who saw this vehicle and whom chatted to the owner briefly when it was displayed.
Although he didn't ask the "right" questions, it seems to be the consensus (between him and I!) that it is a lash-up of the barrel of a 90mm (from Eland) added to the turret of a Saracen. Whether it was a prop, or something else is a mystery.


I have some good pictures of this Saracen, which I can post here if people are interested....I just hadn't done so as yet because I wasn't sure they fitted. I could post them up, if nothing else for their "oddity"?

 

[kaiserbill]

I am not sure when the Rooikat 105 was first shown. According to Jane's it was developed specifically for the export market, starting in 1990.

I'm not sure either, without further research.
What I do have is the 105mm Rooikat in the pic below, with the old South African flag, which was used until early 1994.
Clearly this vehicle was developed and in existence before that date then.

 

[Matt R.]

Back to Rooikat :

In a French publication (RAIDS HS n°20 by Marc Chassillan), one may find a picture and a line drawing showing a Rooikat equipped with the Bofors 40mm two-man turret of the Swedish CV9040.

I don't think this variant has been discussed so far, and I was wondering whether someone could provide more details, e.g. : when ? photoshop, mock-up or actual protoype ? etc...

Thanks in advance.

Do you have a picture of this?

Attached are the pics from RAIDS magazine (for fair use only) :

 

[Matt R.]

Reply to post #171.
Regarding the AMX-10RC turret fitted with the Rheinmetall 105mm gun: black and white photograph in Janes' Armour and Artillery 1989-90. The turret is on a display mounting and the photograph was taken at a show, possibly Satory. Long, multi-baffle muzzle brake. The caption states that it was unveiled in 1987 and that the turret featured a Rheinmetall low recoil gun. It does not mention the SLR and I suspect the info I posted was incorrect. The gun featured was probably, as you suggest, the Rh 105-20 with a recoil length of 540mm, which would fit the turret. This gun has a nominal recoil energy of 200 kN which, I suspect, when fired in the 16 ton AMX-10RC, will cause, nose-bleeds, loss of fillings and much taking of the Lord's name in vain!

Thanks for the details. If you happen to have a scan of the B&W photograph of the AMX-10 RC fitted with the Rheinmetall RH-105-20 (?), I'd be delighted to see it posted here (if other contributors don't mind).

Thanks in advance.

Regards.

Matt.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #185.


Janes' says that the Rooikat 105 was introduced in 1994, whatever "introduced" means. Certainly had prototypes running about before that time.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #186.


If the expression: "If it looks right is usually is right" is true, this thing is most certainly right! Very nice looking combination.


Mowag has built a 10 x 10 version of their popular 8 x 8 APC. I've seen a photograph of this vehicle fitted with the same turret.

 

[kaiserbill]

A couple of of pics, including a rear view, of the Rooikat ATGW platform fitted with that low profile/unmanned turret.


I seem to recall that this was perhaps mounted on an "extended" Rooikat chassis, which I assume would be the same as the "extended" Rooikat chassis that was used in the ZA-35 SPAAD....but I'm open to correction.

 

[compton_effect]

Actually, the angle between the vertical, flat surfaces at the front of the turret is very poor from a shot trap point of view. It seems unnecessary to position the crew members so low in the turret. Putting the hatches level with the top of the turret will give the commander a better all round view and will allow the armour at the fron of the turret to be sloped.

I was wondering about that too. The turret sillhouette is still the same, its not like they slimmed that down like that Falcon turret we developed for the Jordanians. That gap has no benefit, no reduction in armour, loss of visibility. The whole layout screams 'proof of concept'.

 

[Abraham Gubler]

Actually, the angle between the vertical, flat surfaces at the front of the turret is very poor from a shot trap point of view. It seems unnecessary to position the crew members so low in the turret. Putting the hatches level with the top of the turret will give the commander a better all round view and will allow the armour at the fron of the turret to be sloped.

The point of lowering the crew positions is to reduce the amount of frontal and side armour the turret needs to protect them. This is the same philosophy behind the Falcon MBT turret (designed in South Africa, unveiled in Jordan) and the Stryker MGS external gun turret. Such a turret only requires say 10% of the armour as a conventional turret and therefore benefit from a considerable weight saving.

The Rooikat example does not accommodate the bottom end of the gunsights and the autoloader magazine either behind the gun box or at the lowered height of the crew (like the Falcon and Stryker turrets). So they do not benefit from being behind the frontal armour of a traditional turret. They would simply have some bullet proof protection and be considered sacrificial to enemy fires if such a configuration was ever used in a combat vehicle. But as a trials vehicle it is sufficient to prove (or not) that the crew can still operate the vehicle from lowered positions.

 

[Herman]

Reply to posts #191 & 192.
I am inclined to agree with you guys: this is probably a proof of concept turret and not a combat-ready rendition.

 

[JFC Fuller]

the Falcon MBT turret (designed in South Africa, unveiled in Jordan)

The autoloader itself was designed by a UK company called Claverham based on a 140mm demonstrator originally funded by the UK MoD. Mechanology was responsible for the turret itself and IST Dynamics (now, via the BAE LSSA, sale part of Denel) did the fire-control system.

This new Rooikat turret is probably the Falcon III that was supposedly under development years ago. The basic layout looks identical to the original Falcon concept.

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #194.
Do you have any details of the autoloader? Drawings? Number of rounds?
Any details of the close-in defence system?

 

[Herman]

Falcon. I don't expect anything to be open source available on the Rooikat as yet.

 

[JFC Fuller]

From memory, it had 11 rounds in the autoloader, there are probably still some images floating around online. Jordanian outfit KADDB installed it on a Challenger 1 hull.

Edit: http://defence.pk/threads/the-falcon-turret.237531/

 

[curious george]

Maybe more for acedemic purposes than anything else.

SA captured a few PT-76 light tanks that we are aware off,early on in the 80's- anything from that gun conceivable make it to the Rooikat eg ammo types?

 

[Herman]

Reply to post #199.


The Rooikat gun was all Oto 76/62. The cartridge/chamber was exactly the same as was the 62 calibre barrel length. For the armoured car, the mechanical primer of the naval gun was changed for an electrical primer, simpler for an armoured vehicle gun than a mechanical primer. The relatively high velocity HE shell is almost certainly a derivative of one of the many shell types available for the Oto Melara gun. The fuse is South African, afaik. The APFSDS round was developed specifically for the Rooikat, with Israeli assistance.


Of the 3 inch guns, this piece is at the top end of the power range, much more powerful than the gun of the PT 76, for instance.

 

[kaiserbill]

Last night I was in bed tossing and turning, as I suffer from insomnia every now and then, and something about this "new" low profile Rooikat 105mm turret with what appears to be an autoloader popped into my head.
It was something I recalled JFCFuller posted 5 years ago. (I know, I'm sad.... but that's insomnia for you!)
Here is JFCFullers quote in 2010 from page 2 of this thread:

Kaiser,

Do you know if the Denel GT12 120mm low recoil gun was ever installed on a Rooikat, I have seen a Jane's article stating that it was to happen in 2004 but I dont know if it ever did?

Apparently this was also to have a 12-13 round bustle mounted autoloader?

At the time, I'd done a bit of digging around, and had posted this on page 3 as an answer:

...after a little research, apparently the LIW 120mm smoothbore was tested fitted on a LMT-105 turret as used in the Rooikat 105. The Rooikat was apparently designed with a future potential 120mm upgrade in mind. I have not been able to find out exactly when yet, nor the results.

I'd been wondering what the 120mm gun being developed would look like in an LMT-105 turret, as mounted on the Rooikat 105, that led me to wonder whether this new turret we're looking at was actually intended for the 120mm gun?
Would it perhaps be a better "fit" for the 120mm gun than the Rooikat 105mm turret?

JFCFullers post seems to suggest that there may be something in it...perhaps both turret solutions were looked at for the 120mm?

 

[kaiserbill]

Reply to post #185.


Janes' says that the Rooikat 105 was introduced in 1994, whatever "introduced" means. Certainly had prototypes running about before that time.

Herman, further to that pic of the Rooikat 105mm with the old SA flag, dating it to before early 1994, I also have this pic of a Rooikat 105mm that was on display apparently in 1992 already.
I can't verify, of course, the accuracy of the label, but I do personally recall there being a host of unveiled weapons/platforms at shows in that time period. It was in that very period where I personally saw that model of the Carver fighter jet, that I still bitterly regret not take a pic of... :'(


It might be of benefit to find out what shows were on in that time period. I do know, for example, that there was an arms show in Johannesburg in November 1992.


EDIT: DEXSA 92 probably.
EDIT2: Definitely DEXSA 92. The red zigzag motif banners hanging from the ceiling feature in every pic I have of that show.
There was also a Pretoria Show that year, as well as display in Cape Town that year which is where I saw the Carver model.