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Roland Payen projects and prototypes

Jemiba

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[quote author=hesham]Some little known aircraft

Payen Pa-310 fighter-bomber project.[/quote]

- The 3-view of the Payen Pa.310 is shown on
http://home.att.net/~dannysoar2/Payen2.htm, a site with other interesting Payen
stuff, unfortunately only a small part of those projects, which could be shown ... :'(
 

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Deltafan

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Jemiba said:
(...)
For the Payen pre-war types and projects I would recommend http://home.att.net/~dannysoar2/Payen.htm,
but you'll probably find out, that especially informations about Payen aircraft are hard to find ...
a little more about the pre-war planes and projects of Roland Payen :

WEB :

http://museedelta.free.fr/payen/pa100.htm
http://www.nurflugel.com/Nurflugel/Fauvel/e_payen.htm
http://modelarchives.free.fr/Bestiaire/Payen_P400_P/index.html
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payen_Pa_22
http://www.aviafrance.com/constructeur.php?ID_CONSTRUCTEUR=1012
http://www.internetmodeler.com/2001/june/aviation/payen.htm
http://www.samoloty.ow.pl/str276.htm
http://www.ioh.pl/samoloty/index.php?art=5
http://www.strange-mecha.com/aircraft/early-jet/fr-jet.htm
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=81893&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=&sid=22b3c8613edb066dfface378174bc900 (22:32)
http://www.j-aircraft.org/xplanes/hikoki_files/suzukaze.html
http://www.rc-sim.de/dl_engine_eng/comment.php?dlid=935&PHPSESSID=ef7cff3b84f085a30ff3685f30f94d1d


BOOKS

-Die schnellsten Jets der Welt, Ferdinand C.W.Kässmann, Aviatic Verlag, 1994 (p.10)
-Die schnellsten Propellerflugzeuge der Welt, Ferdinand C.W.Kässmann, Aviatic Verlag, 1996 (p.59-60, p.68-69, p.164-165)
-Les ailes volantes, Alain Pelletier, ETAI, 1999, (p.40-41, p.96, p.103, p.109, p.123)
-Fantômes fourchus, Xavier Toff ;) , La plume du temps, 2000 (...,p.100-101,...)


MODEL BOX

-Model Air International (file with the model)


MAGAZINES

-L'album du fanatique de l'aviation N°5, november 1969
-Le fana de l'aviation N°266, january 1991
-Airpower, may 2003
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go2547/is_200305/ai_n7623035
-Aviation Française Magazine (AFM) N°11, september-october 2006 http://www.aerostories.org/~aerobiblio/article1374.html


SOON

A book by Pierre Gaillard about Payen and Payen's planes and projects (but I read and hear about this "soon" book since 6 years...)


If somebody knews more, it's very interesting for me (scuse for my bad english)
 

Jemiba

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... and, as richard B already pointed out, in the last issue of the Aviation Francais
Magazine is an article about the Payen-Melot (early jet) designs. As it is the current
number, I'm afraid to offend a copyright, but those, who are interested can drop
a PM with their mailadress ...
 

Deltafan

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The article of AFM is good ! :)

There is any words about the Payen-Melot in the Book "Die schnellsten Jets der Welt" and we can see a drawing in the previous webpage (with the name : Pa22/1R) :

http://www.strange-mecha.com/aircraft/early-jet/fr-jet.htm
 

dan_inbox

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if anyone have a little known aircraft to france,please tell us.
Is this VTOL contraption by Roland Payen obscure enough for ya? ;D

I'd love to see it fly...
 

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Maveric

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Hi all,

I search for some technical data of the Payen projects Pa.200 and Pa.340.

Thanks and Servus
 

hesham

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Hi Maveric,

for Payen Pa.340 see this;
http://home.att.net/~dannysoar2/Payen2.htm
 

hesham

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Hi,

of course my dear Jemiba spoke about this aircraft before
but it is the first time for me to see its drawing.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1943/1943%20-%202254.html
 

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lark

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Hesham,
I'm afraid this is not a project.
It's the Payen Pa.22/5 a modification of the Pa.22/2 wit a separated cockpit.
It is also sometimes labelled Pa.22V5.

Source: Etudes et réalisations de Nicolas Roland Payen by Pierre Gaillard-Le Trait d'union.
 

Jemiba

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lark is right, I think, here's another drawing of the
modified Pa.22 V5. AFAIK, the modification was done
under german supervision .
(From FlugRevue 7/1995)
 

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lark

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Correct Jemiba!

Flown in this guise on 18 October 1941...
 

hesham

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Thank you my dears Lark and Jemiba.
 

Jemiba

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"The elegance has never won a war..."
That's true, it's just that,as far as I know, the gemans were as
"enthusiastic" about those designs ("In which direction
does it fly ?"), as several french aviation experts before the war.
It was requisitioned for flight testing, but after it had disturbed
operational flying once, because of an engine failure, Roland Payen
had severe difficulties to rescue his aircraft from being destroyed
on the spot !
 

Deltafan

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Jemiba said:
"The elegance has never won a war..."
That's true, it's just that,as far as I know, the gemans were as
"enthusiastic" about those designs ("In which direction
does it fly ?"), as several french aviation experts before the war.
It was requisitioned for flight testing, but after it had disturbed
operational flying once, because of an engine failure, Roland Payen
had severe difficulties to rescue his aircraft from being destroyed
on the spot !
Yes...
The most futuristic plane of its time (Pa-101) made an unauthorised first fly on 17/04/35 and was forbidden to fly from 1935 to 1939 by the french authorities... And in 1939 the french government wanted to make wind testing with the Pa-101-like Pa-22 (maybe only the unstable Moskalyev Strela was most futuristic at this time)... The plane was ready for the test on 28/08/39 but the the french authorities must start from Paris to Orléans because of the war... And the authorisation never came for the test...

And it's only a part of the Payen's unluck stories...
 

spockangel

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Hi everybody,

I'm looking for documentation and 3 view drawing about Payen racer aircraft for Coupe Deutsch, mainly Payen PA 100 and PA 350 CD.
I'd like to built solid models of these aircraft.

In "Air Enthusiast N° 68" there are some infos and plans, but it's hard to find for a frenchman.
Another source is "Aussie shed" site with an article about Payen but the site is not available.
Many thanks for your help
Best Regards
Angel
 

Jemiba

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With the sources you've mentioned, you already have most informations, which are
readily available today (You probably already had a look her :
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1475.0.html.)
There was a list of types in Trait d'Union, and short mentions in a lot of other sources,
but mainly limited to the quite well documented Pa.22 .
All I can add by myself in the moment is a 3-view of the Pa.430CV, basically similar, but
larger than the 350.
 

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Justo Miranda

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Please see

http://www.hubertcance.com/large-view/Plan%20drawings%20samples/90075-1-0-7066/Drawing/Paper.html

http://home.att.net/~dannysoar2/Payen2.htm
 

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spockangel

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Hi,
Thanks to Jens and Justo.

I have to drawn my own 3 view, or choose to built a P51 model !
Regards
Angel
 

Stargazer2006

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A few Payen projects from an old issue of Le Trait d'Union:
  • Sauvage-Payen (R)SP.230 « Autoplan » racer (K5)
  • Payen-Mélot PM.30A (Pa.35/30) experimental aircraft (K23B)
  • Payen Pa.210 « Monobaby » private airplane (K25)
  • Payen RP.420 fighter (K28B)
  • Payen Pa.361TP long-range aircraft (K36B)
  • Payen Pa.440 (K38) Transatlantic aircraft and Pa.445 carrier aircraft (K38B)
  • Payen Pa.430HV « Éclair » racer (K45)
  • Payen Pa/P1 cruise missile (K48)
 

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Stargazer2006

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And also the Payen Pa.42/5 transport project with detachable cargo hold (K57):
 

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Deltafan

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Thanks for the sharing Stargazer :)


From old issues of

Les Ailes : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb326846379/date.r=%22cylindres+en+X%22.langFR

and

L'aerophile : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/cb344143803/date.r=l%27a%C3%A9rophile.langFR



-Les Ailes 788 (23.07.36), page 5 : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65552283/f5.image
Two views of a little private delta-canard plane project (5 m lang x 2 m wingspan) "Avion-flèche" and explanations from the builder about how it (should) flies.


-Les Ailes 778 (14.05.36), page 11 : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6555218q/f11.image
Only some words about a next "Fleche" (Arrow) Payen with a 60-70 HP six-cylinders Train engine, and a Wind model of this Flèche.


-Les Ailes 790 (06.08.36), page 6 : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k65552305/f6.image
3 views and Wind model of the Delta-canard Pa.220 T2 project : two seats private plane with one 70 HP engine, max speed : 260 km/h, landing speed : 55 km/h, range 1600 km, empty weight 220 kgs, flying weight 470 kgs.


-Les Ailes 897 (25.08.38), page 8 : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6555901v/f8.image
Photo of a model (1/1) of the Pa.112 delta-canard plane, foreseen for the "Coupe Deutsch" race,
and foreseen too with a light-fighter variant with two machine guns (7.5 or 7.9 mm i presume) and an axial 23 mm gun : 400 HP (2x200 with contrarotating props i presume) and 580 km/h expected.


-L'Aérophile (10.1938), page 229 : http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k6555161c/f25.image.r=l%27aérophile.langFR
3 views of the Pa.112 C1 (1 seat fighter) Flèchair project and photo of the 1/1 model. This time with 200 HP (2x100 with contrarotating props). 6.74 m lang, 4.16 m wingspan, 2.04 high. Foreseen with one 23 mm Madsen or one 20 mm Oerlikon gun or a special 37 mm Payen gun, and two machine guns 7.9 mm (200 shots each), with 430 kgs empty, 610 kgs flying without weapons, max speed 460 km/h foreseen, takeoff (80 m) with 140 km/h, landing (150 m) with 80 km/h


There are other little articles only with texts and not necessarily interesting. I will show some ot them later.
 

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Stargazer2006

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Of all places, I just came across this beautiful artist's rendering of a Payen Fléchair from an old issue of Bill Barnes, Air Adventurer!
http://www.philsp.com/data/images/b/bill_barnes_air_adventurer_193504.jpg
 

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Deltafan

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Thanks Stargazer :)

I only could find this link of the cover of Fliying Aces from july (193?) :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dannysoar/5907650252/in/pool-15529695@N00/
 

Stargazer2006

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Deltafan said:
Thanks Stargazer :)

I only could find this link of the cover of Fliying Aces from july (193?) :

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dannysoar/5907650252/in/pool-15529695@N00/

The one in the link above is a fake. Not only it shows (the aircraft is not painted, it is like a paper model) but it is explained in the commentary underneath the image.


The one I posted, on the contrary, is a real April 1935 cover, most probably painted by Frank Tinsley.
 

Deltafan

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Ah, OK, it is why i could not find the cover in each july issue of the thirties. This (false then) Flying aces cover was present on the old Danysoar site, like your Bill Barnes cover. It seems that this old site disappeared (with all the drawings probably from Alain Pelletier's article in Air Enthusiast. But some of these drawings are used today by Unicraft). On the new Dany Soar site i only found this "false" cover.

during my searches today i learned (thanks Google) that there was a 3 views drawing about the Pa.112 C1 in an issue of Flying aces :
http://www.antiquemodeler.org/sam_new/approved_lists/Magazine-Index/flyingmodels.html
PAYEN PA 112-C-1 FLECHAIR / 3-VIEW PG 47 33-2 SEPT 1939 FA

As a result I searched in my Payen files today too and i saw for the first time what is wrote (Flying aces plan by Leonard Wieczorek - thanks Google again for the whole name of the Illustrator that i couldn't read) on the right bottom of the "Miss July" (Pa.112 C1) of the old Dany soar link. And it is even wrote too on the text next to the drawing : "The drawing is from the September '39 Flying Aces"...
The drawing is not good (it's a scan of a copy paper, from an already bad then drawing, that i made 13 years ago) but on these old times i didn't know Secretprojects or AvionsMilitaires.net and i could not guess that the old danysoar site could disappear one day...
 

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Stargazer2006

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Alcides said:
I've like to see really more information on this ones.
They're really "strange" ;)

Anyone has information in dimensions? Or bigger resolution images?

Unfortunately I've had a hard time finding much more than these so far, but I'm sure something exists somewhere...


Meanwhile here is a series of beautiful photos of an SP.240 model found on the web a while ago...
 

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theponja

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Stargazer said:
Alcides said:
I've like to see really more information on this ones.
They're really "strange" ;)

Anyone has information in dimensions? Or bigger resolution images?

Unfortunately I've had a hard time finding much more than these so far, but I'm sure something exists somewhere...


Meanwhile here is a series of beautiful photos of an SP.240 model found on the web a while ago...

Thanks Stargazer for the model pictures. A great work BTW. I wonder what we can use to estimate the dimensions. Propeller size?
 

Deltafan

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Alcides, if this can help you. It's not the SP.190 or the SP.240, but these planes were dérivatives of the SP.230 :

from Pilote Privé, january 1981, page 48 :

http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h306/parigoballadeur/Payen/SP230001_zpsa4a26918.jpg

Sauvage-Payen SP.230 autoplan
two seats private plane
engine : Salmson 7AC 90 hp
Length : 5,80 m
Wingspan : 3,96 m
Height : 2,20 m
Main wing surface : 12,88 m²
Forward wing surface : 3,05 m²
Empty weight : 190 kg
Moving (good translation ?) weight : 235 kg
Max weight : 425 kg
Wing loading : 26 kg/m²
Loading/hp : 6,53 kg/hp
Max speed : 200 km/h
Min speed : 80 km/h
Max (good translation ?) flying height : 1 500 m
Range : 1200 km
 

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Stargazer2006

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Very nice, Deltafan, thanks a lot for this!
 

theponja

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Deltafan said:
Alcides, if this can help you. It's not the SP.190 or the SP.240, but these planes were derivatives of the SP.230 :
Of course! Thanks a lot at least we've one this with dimensions. I like your avatar :) .
 

Deltafan

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Enjoy !!!!!!!!!! ;D

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=146_1344177544
 

Stargazer2006

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Short but nice! Thanks for sharing this, Deltafan!
 

Jemiba

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Indeed! I wasn't aware about the full moving tips of the canard wing
still yet . They nearly look a bit small for sufficient efficiency as ailerons.
Were there any clues about problems ?
 
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