Whoa. Thanks for clarification - I didn't know that. I thought that "lane" magazine was specifically designed to fit into narrow hulls of destroyers.
Friedman's British Destroyers and Frigates has some discussion of this; the 'tube' was considered by DNC to require a considerably larger ship, but was the preference of DNO. Ultimately DNO won.

There's also a drawing showing the earliest arrangement of the 'Fast Guided Weapon Escort', which had the deep hangar scheme. It's a much more attractive layout overall, IMO.
 
Friedman's British Destroyers and Frigates has some discussion of this; the 'tube' was considered by DNC to require a considerably larger ship, but was the preference of DNO. Ultimately DNO won.
Well, AFAIK the "lane" magazine (I prefer "lane" to the "tube"... because it was square, after all) was preferred because it didn't create any single point of mass detonation, in case of ship being hit. The long longitudal magazine could be easily separated by blast doors in several sections, and even in case of missile exploding in the magazine, the damage could be realtively easily contained.
 
I'd make a stretched Martel/Sea Eagle for that. More fuel, more boom.

I was thinking the same thing, and more room for sophisticated guidance such as a datalink and active radar in the same missile. Indeed with the other thread about land attack AShMs perhaps different sensors could be fitted to the missile body in the converted Seaslug magazines. Or at least active radar, TV-datalink and anti-radar heads could be called up when needed, and there would be an opportunity to select the radar band the anti-radar seeker can home onto just before launch. The Counties could then become potent anti-ship and land-attack ships without the massive rebuilds needed for Sea Dart.
 
Something has occurred to me. The Seaslug had the same body diameter as the Martel/Sea Eagle, a wingspan slightly greater and is about 2 metres longer. In theory Martel could readily fit in the Seaslug magazines and seaslug style boosters could be used to get these missiles to flying speed. This would avoid for huge structural work that dooms things like Sea Dart conversion in practice.
I seriously doubt that subsonic Martel/Sea Eagle body would survive the acceleration that four Seaslug launch boosters would provide. Those accelerated missile, several times as heavy as Martel, to twice speed of sound in mere seconds, don't forget. Martel body would likely just crumble under such acceleration.

The only viable way would be to use Seaslug body & put on the Martel optical seeker and communication equipment somehow. So it would be Seaslug with Martel seeker, essentially. I'm not sure how good the optical seeker would be for a fast supersonic missile, though; it might fly just too fast for operator to be able to find the target and lock the seeker on. And Seaslug could not control itself when subsonic, it's rudders aren't large enough for that.
 
I seriously doubt that subsonic Martel/Sea Eagle body would survive the acceleration that four Seaslug launch boosters would provide. Those accelerated missile, several times as heavy as Martel, to twice speed of sound in mere seconds, don't forget. Martel body would likely just crumble under such acceleration.

The only viable way would be to use Seaslug body & put on the Martel optical seeker and communication equipment somehow. So it would be Seaslug with Martel seeker, essentially. I'm not sure how good the optical seeker would be for a fast supersonic missile, though; it might fly just too fast for operator to be able to find the target and lock the seeker on. And Seaslug could not control itself when subsonic, it's rudders aren't large enough for that.

I'm aware of that, which is why I said Seaslug style boosters, ie 4 wrap around rockets in front of the Martels wings. Surely it is easier and cheaper to design some solid rockets suitable to launch a Martel from Sea Slug facilities that it is to rebuild the ship for Sea Dart.
 
I'm aware of that, which is why I said Seaslug style boosters, ie 4 wrap around rockets in front of the Martels wings. Surely it is easier and cheaper to design some solid rockets suitable to launch a Martel from Sea Slug facilities that it is to rebuild the ship for Sea Dart.
The range of surface-launched Martel would likely be seriously limited. It's engine isn't exactly very powerful:

The large airframeaccommodates a Hotchkiss-Brandt/SNPE Basile solid propellant booststagewith a 2.4 second burn, and an SNPE Cassandre solid propellantsustainerwith a 22 second burn.
A surface-launched Martel would likely have range of 15-20 km at most. No altitude to glide from, and engine would burn out very quickly climbing on any altitude.

1767903844421.png

P.S. I just found that AJ.168 Martel, in fact, did not have a seeker capable of locking on( It was manually guided into the target by operator; operator holds crossfire over target image, pointing the camera on target, and missile aligned itself with camera position. So it can't be used beyond horizon anyway.
 
Last edited:
I'm aware of that, which is why I said Seaslug style boosters, ie 4 wrap around rockets in front of the Martels wings. Surely it is easier and cheaper to design some solid rockets suitable to launch a Martel from Sea Slug facilities that it is to rebuild the ship for Sea Dart.
Surface launched Sea Eagle did use parallel boosters, though IIRC only two of them. Could work just fine with attention to the load paths.
 
The range of surface-launched Martel would likely be seriously limited. It's engine isn't exactly very powerful:


A surface-launched Martel would likely have range of 15-20 km at most. No altitude to glide from, and engine would burn out very quickly climbing on any altitude.

View attachment 797896

P.S. I just found that AJ.168 Martel, in fact, did not have a seeker capable of locking on( It was manually guided into the target by operator; operator holds crossfire over target image, pointing the camera on target, and missile aligned itself with camera position. So it can't be used beyond horizon anyway.

The Sea Martel proposal for a surface launched version replaced the TV and AR seekers with a single axis active radar, and presumably with suitable boosters to get it to flying speed. I don't know if adding external boosters means that the internal booster can be replaced with a slightly larger sustainer.

Presumably with boosters for surface launch a lot of flight profiles can be arranged, including boosting the missile to a few thousand feet for cruising for the first few tens of km to extend range, this would be especially possible with a datalink. As for the TV version, the County class carried the large Wessex helicopter, which presumably could carry the same datalink that the Buccaneer carried and could control the Martel over the shops horizon.

Compared to the suggestions in this thread of massive structural modifications to these aging ships making the Sea Martel work seems like child's play and vastly cheaper.
 
Very much, thank you!
Apologies for the delay @Dilandu, but I have attached a drawing of a boosted Seaslug showing the shoes which engaged guideways in the launcher. All four boost motors had aft shoes but only the left and right had motors had forward shoes. The missile's orientation was boosts to top/bottom/left/right on board the ship, but in flight the control surfaces were to top/bottom/left/right.

SRJ.
 

Attachments

  • DSCF1532BoostedMk2Annotated.jpg
    DSCF1532BoostedMk2Annotated.jpg
    234 KB · Views: 14
Apologies for the delay @Dilandu, but I have attached a drawing of a boosted Seaslug showing the shoes which engaged guideways in the launcher. All four boost motors had aft shoes but only the left and right had motors had forward shoes. The missile's orientation was boosts to top/bottom/left/right on board the ship, but in flight the control surfaces were to top/bottom/left/right.
Thank you very much! Now at least I could figure out how missile is fixed inside launcher (the launcher itself still seems to be a VERY overcomplicated thing)
 
I.e. seeking only in azimuth?

Yes, unlike Harpoon, Exocet, Otomat and Komoran which has 2 axis seekers.

Is a single axis seeker enough? It was cheaper, which is why the British wanted it, but what does a 2 axis do on a sea skimmer?
 
Thank you very much! Now at least I could figure out how missile is fixed inside launcher (the launcher itself still seems to be a VERY overcomplicated thing)
Seaslug was heavy, over 2 tonnes, and needed electrical and air supplies so it had to be kept still or the connector would be damaged. I think those specifying the requirements (for both this and the candle flame issue) were over worried, but the missile did work.

SRJ
 
Is a single axis seeker enough? It was cheaper, which is why the British wanted it, but what does a 2 axis do on a sea skimmer?
Generally yes, especially if the missile is sea-skimming, or able to entering a smooth descent at pre-determined distance from target. There is still a risk of overshooting the target, of course, but for anti-ship missiles its not exactly the problem.

but what does a 2 axis do on a sea skimmer?
Allow for more than sea-skimming, for example; a pop-up attack.
 
Seaslug was heavy, over 2 tonnes, and needed electrical and air supplies so it had to be kept still or the connector would be damaged. I think those specifying the requirements (for both this and the candle flame issue) were over worried, but the missile did work.
My main questions are about this area, marked by red frame:

1767993011571.png

Why is this part is so... complicated? There are at least three rotation axes there:

1767993092658.png

What are they doing? I have a weird impression that launcher was supposed not to merely elevate up & down, but somehow move its "cage" separatedly from the main rotating foundation?
 
Generally yes, especially if the missile is sea-skimming, or able to entering a smooth descent at pre-determined distance from target. There is still a risk of overshooting the target, of course, but for anti-ship missiles its not exactly the problem.


Allow for more than sea-skimming, for example; a pop-up attack.

IIUC Harpoon and Otomat could do a pop-up terminal attack, the Komoran used the same seeker as the Otomat but that was air launched so might have needed 2 axis seeker.

I'm obsessed with the Martel datalink, and if the Sea Martel would have had a datalink. IIUC there are a couple of key ranges for an AShM, the first is within the ship's sensor range of maybe 50km, this is easy enough. The second is out to about 100-120km, this is where a ship can fire a missile into a general area where there's a high probability that the missile seeker will find the target, this is about the range of the Harpoon and others. The third is over about 120km, this is so far that a missile needs extra guidance during it's flight, this is where the Otomat Mk2 has datalink for it's 180km range.

I wonder if a 1 axis seeker needs a datalink to get the 100-120km range with accuracy.
 
My main questions are about this area, marked by red frame:

View attachment 798007

Why is this part is so... complicated? There are at least three rotation axes there:

View attachment 798008

What are they doing? I have a weird impression that launcher was supposed not to merely elevate up & down, but somehow move its "cage" separatedly from the main rotating foundation?
I think the only axis of rotation is the smallest red circle…but I’ll have a check over the weekend.

SRJ
 
I wonder if a 1 axis seeker needs a datalink to get the 100-120km range with accuracy.
Datalink mainly required when a missile flight time is long enough that target could avoid the missile search area. In general, over-the-horizon shoots are made by calculating target speed and bearing, and firing missile at azimuth that would lead it close to predicted target location. If we have range data also, we could set seeker to activate at last possible moment (thus making missile apperance to be a surprize for target), if not - the seeker should be activated earlier (thus warning target about the missile approach).

The problem is, that target could change course during the missile flight time. If the flight time is reasonably short, the target would not be able to leave the seeker detection area (assuming that the missile was launched correctly, of course - there are always a possibility of missing!). But if the flight time is long, the target course change could easily led to the initially calculated meeting point being significantly off - so significantly, that the missile won't be able to find the target (it would be outside seeker range).

The exact situation when missile requires a midcourse correction depend on missile speed and seeker range, generally. Supersonic missiles usually avoid this problem simply by being fast - even at long range, the 2-3 Mach missile would likely be able to reach the target before it could move away from predicted meeting point. But subsonic missiles, fired at long ranges, often required some additional means of midcourse guidance.

P.S. That's why TASM have a range of only about 450+ km, despite being based on 1000+ km missile. It was subsonic, and even flight at 450 km range required so much time that missile was forced to perform a zig-zagging search pattern to compensate for target movement.
 
Friedman's British Destroyers and Frigates has some discussion of this; the 'tube' was considered by DNC to require a considerably larger ship, but was the preference of DNO. Ultimately DNO won.

There's also a drawing showing the earliest arrangement of the 'Fast Guided Weapon Escort', which had the deep hangar scheme. It's a much more attractive layout overall, IMO.
The arrangement shown on that drawing in Friedman's British Destroyers and Frigates is not the Girdle Ness arrangement. The Girdle Ness arrangement used a tilting structure combined with very high elevation in the launcher to load the missiles into the launcher from the deck immediately below it. This can be seen in Friedman's The Post War naval Revolution.

The Fast Escort arrangement is superficially similar to the that shown for the Fiji conversion and Seaslug destroyer sketches generated in late 1954 in that it uses vertical stacking for missile storage, albeit over a four deck rather than two deck height. The missiles would be loaded out of the structure behind the launcher. Note that the Guided Weapon Fast Escort started life as 1SL Rhoderick McGregor's warmed over Daring, it only acquired Seaslug on the orders of his successor, Mountbatten. Thus, a lot of shoehorning had to be done.

Whoa. Thanks for clarification - I didn't know that. I thought that "lane" magazine was specifically designed to fit into narrow hulls of destroyers.
The intention of the tube magazine design was for the entire missile outfit to be held as fully assembled (e.g. no manual adding of wings and fins) missiles on a continuous conveyor leading to the loader so that during an engagement missiles would be fed continuously to the launcher to support a high rate of fire for the duration of the engagement or until the magazine was empty. Those missiles would also be easily accessible for maintenance within the tube increasing the probability of them working once on the launcher. The planned cruiser fit was very well thought out, intended to provide a high rate of continuous fire, two Type 901s to provide maximum utilisation of the launcher reload cycle and two missiles fired at each target for a high kill probability with the earliest possible provision of 3D data via Type 984.

The missile cruiser best known through its GW.96A incarnation was a highly honed guided weapons ship with a pair of 6in Mk.26 turrets added up front. What became the Counties was a warmed over Daring with Seaslug and associated systems shoehorned in.
 
The intention of the tube magazine design was for the entire missile outfit to be held as fully assembled (e.g. no manual adding of wings and fins) missiles on a continuous conveyor leading to the loader so that during an engagement missiles would be fed continuously to the launcher to support a high rate of fire for the duration of the engagement or until the magazine was empty. Those missiles would also be easily accessible for maintenance within the tube increasing the probability of them working once on the launcher. The planned cruiser fit was very well thought out, intended to provide a high rate of continuous fire, two Type 901s to provide maximum utilisation of the launcher reload cycle and two missiles fired at each target for a high kill probability with the earliest possible provision of 3D data via Type 984.
Thank you for the data!
 
Datalink mainly required when a missile flight time is long enough that target could avoid the missile search area. In general, over-the-horizon shoots are made by calculating target speed and bearing, and firing missile at azimuth that would lead it close to predicted target location. If we have range data also, we could set seeker to activate at last possible moment (thus making missile apperance to be a surprize for target), if not - the seeker should be activated earlier (thus warning target about the missile approach).

The problem is, that target could change course during the missile flight time. If the flight time is reasonably short, the target would not be able to leave the seeker detection area (assuming that the missile was launched correctly, of course - there are always a possibility of missing!). But if the flight time is long, the target course change could easily led to the initially calculated meeting point being significantly off - so significantly, that the missile won't be able to find the target (it would be outside seeker range).

The exact situation when missile requires a midcourse correction depend on missile speed and seeker range, generally. Supersonic missiles usually avoid this problem simply by being fast - even at long range, the 2-3 Mach missile would likely be able to reach the target before it could move away from predicted meeting point. But subsonic missiles, fired at long ranges, often required some additional means of midcourse guidance.

P.S. That's why TASM have a range of only about 450+ km, despite being based on 1000+ km missile. It was subsonic, and even flight at 450 km range required so much time that missile was forced to perform a zig-zagging search pattern to compensate for target movement.

For subsonic sea skimmers a midcourse correction is needed beyond 100-120km, and the early western AShMs were about that range so weren't designed with a datalink. However the Martel already has one, so does the Sea Martel take it out, or could it be handy if left in, even if only effective for 30-40km?
 
However the Martel already has one, so does the Sea Martel take it out, or could it be handy if left in, even if only effective for 30-40km?
Took it out, I suppose. This datalink was specifically for TV guidance version; it transmitted the camera picture to operator screen, and transmitted back the control commands for camera position (operator used joystick to keep camera crosshair centered on target, and the missile autopilot adjusted the missile flight path so the missile's longitudal axis always were parallel to camera's).

While it could likely be adapted to transmit the radar seeker data, and seeker could probably be designed to accept manual input - it's just not very practical for short-range missile. With single-axis seeker, operator would be pretty limited with avaliable data. I suppose it could help discriminate chaffs & stuff, manually setting the azimuth and range gate, but frankly, it probably won't be worthy of efforts for missile with just 30-40 km range.
 
Took it out, I suppose. This datalink was specifically for TV guidance version; it transmitted the camera picture to operator screen, and transmitted back the control commands for camera position (operator used joystick to keep camera crosshair centered on target, and the missile autopilot adjusted the missile flight path so the missile's longitudal axis always were parallel to camera's).

While it could likely be adapted to transmit the radar seeker data, and seeker could probably be designed to accept manual input - it's just not very practical for short-range missile. With single-axis seeker, operator would be pretty limited with avaliable data. I suppose it could help discriminate chaffs & stuff, manually setting the azimuth and range gate, but frankly, it probably won't be worthy of efforts for missile with just 30-40 km range.

IIUC the Otomat is one way only, it receives course updates from the launching ship or an AS212ASW helicopter, and I assume a Sea Martel would be similar. The surface launch datalink allows a ship to coordinate a multi-missile attack to arrive at the same time from different angles, and the helicopter datalink allows over the horizon capability. I don't believe the datalink feeds the missile's radar to the launching ship or helicopter.

Given your average early western AShM took ~6 minutes to fly out to ~100km and a ship could travel 5km in that time I think it would be handy to get an update 2 minutes into the missile's flight to make the search pattern smaller. This assumes the datalink is easy to incorporate in a radar guided AShM the size of the Martel.
 
IIUC the Otomat is one way only, it receives course updates from the launching ship or an AS212ASW helicopter, and I assume a Sea Martel would be similar. The surface launch datalink allows a ship to coordinate a multi-missile attack to arrive at the same time from different angles, and the helicopter datalink allows over the horizon capability. I don't believe the datalink feeds the missile's radar to the launching ship or helicopter.
Otomat's datalink AFAIK is only used to provide missile with mid-course corrections, using either ship's own or helicopter-blased radar to track the missiles (presumably by their transponders). It basically only tell autopilot when and at which angle to turn.
 
Back
Top Bottom