Re-arming the Bundeswehr: Which Projects?

Germany set to buy eight new F127 frigates

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8 AEGIS destroyers (frigates) are definitely quite something. Although I have to admit, regardless of how much I'm in love with the proposed MEKO design and like the idea of a powerful Navy, I kinda end up asking if that's truly necessary? I would even argue more ASW ships are more useful if we are talking about countering the Russian boogeyman. Meaning, I don't really see what warrants the heavy investment into naval expansion, including 8 powerful air warfare destroyers. To me it seems like a 1:1 replacement for the Sachsen-Class would have been adequate and allocate the funds for something else. If keeping with naval systems corvettes, USVs, submarines or mine warfare vessels come to mind.

So while undeniably "cool" and a surprising turn of events, I'm scratching my head as to what is the actual benefit here.
 
EmoBirb said:
8 AEGIS destroyers (frigates) are definitely quite something. Although I have to admit, regardless of how much I'm in love with the proposed MEKO design and like the idea of a powerful Navy, I kinda end up asking if that's truly necessary? I would even argue more ASW ships are more useful if we are talking about countering the Russian boogeyman. Meaning, I don't really see what warrants the heavy investment into naval expansion, including 8 powerful air warfare destroyers. To me it seems like a 1:1 replacement for the Sachsen-Class would have been adequate and allocate the funds for something else.
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F-124 with all it problems was allways (atleast as far as i can remember) seen as to few in numbers but also in recent times as not capable enough. While russian submarine are a large threat in the north sea we also have atleast 3 countries defending that place with a combined force of ASW ships, P-8 Poseidon's and submarines.
Also each of those F-127 will also be very capable in ASW....
EmoBirb said:
If keeping with naval systems corvettes, USVs, submarines or mine warfare vessels come to mind.

So while undeniably "cool" and a surprising turn of events, I'm scratching my head as to what is the actual benefit here.
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Having the ability to safely ship trought contested space? I remember vividly how big of a deal was made when F222 Baden-Württemberg and A 1412 Frankfurt am Main took the long route around Africa because they themself wouldn't safely traverse the red sea and no F-124 was available.
 
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kqcke for you said:
Having the ability to safely ship trought contested space? I remember vividly how big of a deal was made when F222 Baden-Württemberg and A 1412 Frankfurt am Main took the long route around Africa because they themself wouldn't safely traverse the red sea and no F-124 was available.
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Fair, although I'd question the need for a German presence in the region to begin with.
 
EmoBirb said:
Fair, although I'd question the need for a German presence in the region to begin with.
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The need is there because germany is highly deppendent of maritime trades and the red sea has high economical values. We have seen what they can do and what if this also happens in south africa? Do we then just ship all other the US? Of course 8 ships wont be the ultimate solution to the problem but its a helping band aid
 
Well it seems very likely now that F-127 will actualy have the 96 cells that was allways the goal given the situation in recent times...
 
Ainen said:
Not sure at current state of affairs in Baltics ASW is needed at all.
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Apparently the Baltic Fleet currently has one Kilo and two Improved Kilos of its own, plus two Improved Kilos belonging to the Pacific Fleet and one Lada belonging to the Northern Fleet, so the submarine threat is small, but capable.

OTOH I'd presume the intention is to deploy at least some of the F126s in the Norwegian Sea - Germany does have a North Sea coast, not just a Baltic one, and the Northern Fleet threat is greater.
 
kqcke for you said:
The need is there because germany is highly deppendent of maritime trades and the red sea has high economical values. We have seen what they can do and what if this also happens in south africa? Do we then just ship all other the US? Of course 8 ships wont be the ultimate solution to the problem but its a helping band aid
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Outsourcing the "global police" business to the US has been a tried and true cost saving measure. I don't really see the need to change that so suddenly. Especially as these shipping routes are also used by other countries who will also have an interest in keeping them open. So it's not like the Marine not sending frigates there will lead to an economic collapse.

What puzzles me is this notion of independent action but ultimately still leaning on and being directed by foreign powers in other ways. Which is why I said the money could be spent elsewhere. Not saying the F127s need to be abandoned, but 8 seems overkill.
 
EmoBirb said:
Outsourcing the "global police" business to the US has been a tried and true cost saving measure. I don't really see the need to change that so suddenly. Especially as these shipping routes are also used by other countries who will also have an interest in keeping them open. So it's not like the Marine not sending frigates there will lead to an economic collapse.

What puzzles me is this notion of independent action but ultimately still leaning on and being directed by foreign powers in other ways. Which is why I said the money could be spent elsewhere. Not saying the F127s need to be abandoned, but 8 seems overkill.
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You do realise that even the Others only have a finite Numbers of hulls which they can use for that purpose and this was only an recent an actual scenario where we have seen there need.
Less AAW frigates means less ships we can have in contested space with an powerful land based threat. Russia has a lot of anti ship missiles and alone the baltic sea is full of them. You know why the Marine wants to try to allways buy atleast 3 ships? Because that means you can allways have atleast 1 ship Out there. With 8 its likely that they can have around 3 on the water all the time. Thats not all lot but better than now. Mutch better.....
 
Arjen said:
Past tense, certainly not with the current US administration. Previous US administrations had become less and less happy about bearing the brunt of "global police" operations.
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"Team America World Police" was annoying when I was in, 20+ years ago.
 
EmoBirb said:
I'm thinking more about the submarines of the Northern Fleet venturing from the Barents Sea into the Northern Atlantic (Norwegian Sea) and North Sea, rather than the Baltic Fleet and Baltic Sea.
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The existing forces are more than capable of handling the Russian Northern Fleet now, and for the next 15-20 years.

Right now the Northern Fleet has the following...

1 Yasen Class SSGN
2 Yasen M Class SSGN
1 Oscar Class SSGN (possibly 2, Russian sources are divided on the status of Smolensk, all agree she hasn't very long left at all)
3 Akula Class SSN (2 of which have received no updates in the 30-35 years of service and will leave service soon. All 3 of these will likely be replaced with 3 other Akula's that have been in refit for years and years
2 Victor III Class SSN (Have had refits, but questionable combat utility, appear to be used for training, hull life will expire in due course)
2 Kilo Class SSK (Kaluga and Vladikavkaz, neither has received any major modernisation effort in the last 35 years)
1 Lada M Class SSK (Kronshtadt might be operational)

Thats it...everything they have apart from SSBN (which aren't leaving the White Sea) and a small number of old special mission subs (Belgorod has departed to the Pacific Fleet). They will get a couple more Yasen in the future to replace the remaining Oscar Class in full, and likely a couple of Khabarovsk Class plus some more Lada M to finally replace the Kilo Class...

One thing for sure this is not the Soviet Northern Fleet....they're not going to be sortieing out in any numbers, if at all, but the lack of numbers isn't the only problems...

  1. The current rate of build 'might' just keep the current numbers up....any delay and they decline...
  2. Northern Fleet has 1 whole minesweeper to cover all of its bases...
  3. Lack of modern ASW assets including MPA and helos (with no new designs on the horizon) mean what subs they have would all be required to try and hold off NATO subs....
  4. If you think the Submarine and Aviation parts of the Northern Fleet are bad....look at the surface fleet...2 'modern' small frigates. Everything else hanging on with a thread....
  5. You should read what Russian's think about their current guided Torpedoes, both sub launched and air dropped, and their sonar buoys/sonar systems on helos and surface vessels (they don't talk about sonar on subs though)...the common refrain is that they're ancient and unlikely to be any use....
 
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The Northern Fleet has around

Two Oscars, three Yasens with more total come, two to three active Akulas, two Sierras, probably one Victor?, a few Kilos, two Ladas, a Khabarovsk in the near future. These are the subs which basically outmatch most of the submarines fielded by European countries in the region. Ignoring some of the special mission subs which aren't used to wage direct combat.

With regards to surface combatants there is formerly Pyotr Velikiy and now Admiral Nakhimov, a modernized Slava cruiser, three Gorshkovs which outgun most "destroyers" and "frigates" in Europe, three Udaloys, two Alexandrit mine countermeasure vessels and at least three Project 1265 minesweepers, the icebreaking patrol ship Ivan Papanin.

Then the Northern Fleet also works in tandem with VKS units who operate Tu-22M3s, MiG-31s and Su-30SMs.

All in all it seems like you're trying to undersell the Northern Fleet. When alone the SSN force of this singular fleet is larger than that of any other European navy.

Especially looking at the awful shape of the Royal Navy which is a rotting corpse compared to what it used to be and the lackluster efforts of other European Navy's aside from perhaps France, Italy and Germany, the Northern Fleet doesn't look half bad. And with France and Italy focused on the Mediterranean Sea and the US being fully focused on the PLAN and it's expansion it ultimately lies with Northern and Western European states to attempt to deter the Northern Fleet.
 
EmoBirb said:
The Northern Fleet has around

Two Oscars, three Yasens with more total come, two to three active Akulas, two Sierras, probably one Victor?, a few Kilos, two Ladas, a Khabarovsk in the near future. These are the subs which basically outmatch most of the submarines fielded by European countries in the region. Ignoring some of the special mission subs which aren't used to wage direct combat.

With regards to surface combatants there is formerly Pyotr Velikiy and now Admiral Nakhimov, a modernized Slava cruiser, three Gorshkovs which outgun most "destroyers" and "frigates" in Europe, three Udaloys, two Alexandrit mine countermeasure vessels and at least three Project 1265 minesweepers, the icebreaking patrol ship Ivan Papanin.

Then the Northern Fleet also works in tandem with VKS units who operate Tu-22M3s, MiG-31s and Su-30SMs.

All in all it seems like you're trying to undersell the Northern Fleet. When alone the SSN force of this singular fleet is larger than that of any other European navy.
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Remember that at best the Russians can surge 2/3rds of that fleet total. Assuming that the ships are all in full operational shape.
 
EmoBirb said:
The Northern Fleet has around

Two Oscars, three Yasens with more total come, two to three active Akulas, two Sierras, probably one Victor?, a few Kilos, two Ladas, a Khabarovsk in the near future. These are the subs which basically outmatch most of the submarines fielded by European countries in the region. Ignoring some of the special mission subs which aren't used to wage direct combat.

With regards to surface combatants there is formerly Pyotr Velikiy and now Admiral Nakhimov, a modernized Slava cruiser, three Gorshkovs which outgun most "destroyers" and "frigates" in Europe, three Udaloys, two Alexandrit mine countermeasure vessels and at least three Project 1265 minesweepers, the icebreaking patrol ship Ivan Papanin.

Then the Northern Fleet also works in tandem with VKS units who operate Tu-22M3s, MiG-31s and Su-30SMs.

All in all it seems like you're trying to undersell the Northern Fleet. When alone the SSN force of this singular fleet is larger than that of any other European navy.

Especially looking at the awful shape of the Royal Navy which is a rotting corpse compared to what it used to be and the lackluster efforts of other European Navy's aside from perhaps France, Italy and Germany, the Northern Fleet doesn't look half bad. And with France and Italy focused on the Mediterranean Sea and the US being fully focused on the PLAN and it's expansion it ultimately lies with Northern and Western European states to attempt to deter the Northern Fleet.
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The Sierra's are now out of service, and most Russian sources believe the Oscar Class 'Smolensk' is done as well.

The 43 year old Slava Class 'Marshal Ustinov' got a barebones modernisation...she's little better than the 'Moskva'...., 'Admiral Nakhimov' is in sea trials following a 26 year long refit, its unclear if she will actually end up with the Northern or Pacific Fleets. 'Pyotr Velikiy' is done, she isn't getting a modernisation....the cost of 'Admiral Nakhimov' saw to that, she's not going to leave Severodvinsk again... as for the Udaloy's they're based on a design from the 50's, the Udaloy I's 'Admiral Kulakov' is 45 years old and had a minor 'modernisation' 15 years ago, 'Severomorsk' and 'Admiral Levchenko' are almost 40 years old with no major modernisation efforts having taken place, the Udaloy II 'Admiral Chabanenko' has been in 'refit' for 12 years and has still not been armed again. Russian sources also question if she will ever re-enter service....only 1 Alexandrit MCM vessel is actually operational in the Northern Fleet, the Project 1265 are no longer operational.

I don't need to undersell that....

You are right about the Papanin though...she's just been commissioned. But has no air defences or ability to conduct ASW...so she's little more than a patrol boat.
 
Hey everyone, just so you know, a single Pilatus PC-12 NGX "98+01" was officially delivered to the Wehrtechnische Dienststelle 61 (WDT61) , the Bundeswehr Technical and Airworthiness Center for Aircraft, at Manching AFB on September 30th, 2025.
 
kqcke for you said:
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-new...-navalized-iris-t-slm-on-german-f125-frigate/
With rhe first demonstration going well its likely it wont take long but the position of the launcher looks interresting
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Link is glitched at the moment, looks like they are using new site protection software that is fouling up links. EDIT: Though even within the site the stories aren't opening at the moment.

In other news:
www.barrons.com

Conscription Row Mars Germany's Push To Beef Up Deterrence

German Defence Minister Boris Pistorius hit back Wednesday at critics within his own government as a row over army recruitment threatens to overshadow Berlin's push to bolster its military deterrence.
www.barrons.com www.barrons.com

German Defence Minister Boris Pistorius hit back Wednesday at critics within his own government as a row over army recruitment threatens to overshadow Berlin's push to bolster its military deterrence.

Conservative Chancellor Friedrich Merz, citing the threat of a hostile Russia, has tasked Pistorius of the centre-left Social Democrats with boosting recruitment to build up "the strongest conventional army in Europe".

But the question of how to get there has led to angry recriminations, as Pistorius prefers a purely voluntary approach and Merz's CDU/CSU has advocated the potential use of a draft lottery if necessary.

The coalition government had planned a first reading of a compromise draft law this week, but disagreement on the details sparked a row on Tuesday.

[snip]
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Grey Havoc said:
Link is glitched at the moment, looks like they are using new site protection software that is fouling up links. EDIT: Though even within the site the stories aren't opening at the moment.
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I just got through to the story with only a couple of seconds delay.
 
Apophenia said:
Oh dear! Is a warmed-over AVGP really the best that BMVg can manage for SpähFz NG?
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www.calibredefence.co.uk

Piranha's bite: Germany's Fennek replacement revealed

The Fennek vehicles in service with the Bundeswehr will be replaced with a GDELS Piranha, adding plenty of bite to the reconnaissance troops.
www.calibredefence.co.uk www.calibredefence.co.uk

It'll be a step up on Fennek*, I imagine. Seems odd they're going for 25mm for the KorsakLuchs 2/SpaehFz NG, when the Schakal (Boxer IFV) will get the same 30mm as the Puma. (And odd they're going Piranha, not CAVS, given CAVS is the Fuchs replacement).

As the Bunderwehr apparently wants light (Korsak), heavy (Leo 2) and medium weight elements in its recreated armoured reconnaissance capability, they're going to have to pick a medium weight recce vehicle at some point, so do they go Boxer or tracked Boxer, or Puma, or something new, and whatever the platform do they go 25mm or 30mm, or something else again?

* My brain keeps insisting Fennek is new, and it can't be due for retirement yet.
 
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DWG said:
www.calibredefence.co.uk

Piranha's bite: Germany's Fennek replacement revealed

The Fennek vehicles in service with the Bundeswehr will be replaced with a GDELS Piranha, adding plenty of bite to the reconnaissance troops.
www.calibredefence.co.uk www.calibredefence.co.uk

It'll be a step up on Fennek*, I imagine. Seems odd they're going for 25mm for the Korsak/SpaehPz NG, when the Schakal (Boxer IFV) will get the same 30mm as the Puma.
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Yeah and the 25mm will also be the same as with the Wiesel replacement (still called LuWa?)
DWG said:
As the Bunderwehr apparently wants light (Korsak), heavy (Leo 2) and medium weight elements in its recreated armoured reconnaissance capability, they're going to have to pick a medium weight recce vehicle at some point, so do they go Boxer or tracked Boxer, or Puma, or something new, and whatever the platform do they go 25mm or 30mm, or something else again?
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I mean that could probaly be delivered with the Schwerer Waffenträger? Afterall those Boxer with Lancer turret are called CRV for a reason. Those would again go with the 30mm as its the standard medium armament.
DWG said:
* My brain keeps insisting Fennek is new, and it can't be due for retirement yet.
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There many who Wish that but it is how it is.

Edit:
Also interresting should be the development of 25mm AB munition given the modern threat of drones
www.edrmagazine.eu

Seafuture 2025 – ME 327 25x137 mm proximity rounds ready for production - EDR Magazine

Seafuture: MES showcased its two latest developments in the 25x137 mm field, the ME 327 proximity round and the ME 329 impact round.
www.edrmagazine.eu www.edrmagazine.eu
 
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Titus K said:
On page 3, does “uMAWS” still refer to the cancelled maritime patrol aircraft program with France ?
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uMAWS
Means unmanned Maritime Airborne Warfare System. Its a "loyal wingman" for P-8. Something with which they can get more MPA capabilitys without the heavy cost of manned MPA's. Likely a MQ-series uav
 
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had said:
Do you see a causal link between these acquisitions/upgrades and the recent FCAS developments?
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Not really because people forget that BW doesn't want the Luftwaffe to decrease anymore. If i remember it right even with those additional fighter they would still be a few short compared to the Tornado fleet but i have to research the numbers again.
had said:
At the very least, Germany creates itself some wiggle room for a very late finished FCAS - if not more.
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This can very well be an secondary intention. That said a lot of those where already known for quite some time even before some of the more recent FCAS issues came (again).
 
www.hartpunkt.de

Bundestag stellt 7,8 Milliarden Euro für F126-Alternative bereit

Dem Vernehmen nach stehen den Verteidigungspolitikern der Regierungsfraktionen mit den heute gebilligten Titeln für eine Alternative zur F126 alle Optionen
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de

"The German Federal Ministry of Defense can potentially use around €7.8 billion in the coming fiscal years to procure an alternative platform to the F126 frigate, according to a recent announcement from the Bundestag. The Budget Committee approved this measure at its reconciliation meeting for the 2026 federal budget today."

No actual decision on the F126, but providing the budget for an alternative isn't a vote of confidence.
 
DWG said:
www.hartpunkt.de

Bundestag stellt 7,8 Milliarden Euro für F126-Alternative bereit

Dem Vernehmen nach stehen den Verteidigungspolitikern der Regierungsfraktionen mit den heute gebilligten Titeln für eine Alternative zur F126 alle Optionen
www.hartpunkt.de www.hartpunkt.de

"The German Federal Ministry of Defense can potentially use around €7.8 billion in the coming fiscal years to procure an alternative platform to the F126 frigate, according to a recent announcement from the Bundestag. The Budget Committee approved this measure at its reconciliation meeting for the 2026 federal budget today."

No actual decision on the F126, but providing the budget for an alternative isn't a vote of confidence.
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Well for the F-126 we first need to pay Damen 33 million so we can get the data for NVL to tell ous how titanic the situation
 
www.bbc.com

Germany agrees new military service plan to boost troop numbers

The new military service plan will mandate all 18-year-old men to fill out a questionnaire on their suitability to serve.
www.bbc.com www.bbc.com

Germany's coalition government has agreed a new military service plan to boost troop numbers following months of wrangling between political forces.

The new military service plan will mandate all 18-year-old men to fill out a questionnaire on their suitability to serve and, from 2027, to undergo medical screening.

The decision comes as Berlin aims to create Europe's strongest conventional army.

The boss of Germany's biggest defence firm, Rheinmetall, has told the BBC he believes that target could be met in five years.

Lawmakers are expected to vote on the plan by the end of 2025.

Armin Papperger said Chancellor Friedrich Merz's aim to boost the Bundeswehr was "realistic" and he told the BBC that "clear decisions" were coming from government.

Earlier this year German defence chief Gen Carsten Breuer warned that the Western Nato alliance had to prepare for a possible Russian attack within four years.

[snip]
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