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Postwar Payen projects

Stargazer2006

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patvig said:
A very intersting page (in French) with 130 references :forum.aviationsmilitaires.net/viewtopic.php?t=877&f=45.

This webpage indicates tht Roland Payen designed or projected 250 aicrafts.
Merci Patrice. I suggest you take a look at my latest version of the Payen design list, which contains over 275 entries:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,1475.msg206041.html#msg206041
 

Deltafan

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Hi everybody,

a little british movie (35") from 1954 about the Payen Pa.49 :

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/smallest-delta-wing-jet-plane
 

Deltafan

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Video of Le Bourget airshow 1955 : 8'02" : http://www.ina.fr/video/AFE03005577

We can see the flying Pa.49 from 40" to 58"
 

Deltafan

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Unknown photo of the Pa.61B with M. Payen (near the flying Pa.49)

http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/Nicolas-Roland-PAYEN-createur-d.html
 

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Jemiba

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Thanks for it ! Shows the canopy framing and hinge very clearly . ;)
 

Deltafan

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An unknown, at least for me, photo of the Pa.61F

 

Jemiba

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Many thanks indeed ! Seems to be an early photo of the Pa.61 as still then
neither the Payen logo, nor the registration is applied.
 

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Deltafan

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From DVD Un pionnier de l'aviation en Essonne, Roland Payen. By Mémoire et patrimoine vivant http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,24580.0.html



Sorry, the photos are not good

Pa.261
 

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hesham

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Wow,amazing projects my dear Deltafan.
 

Stargazer2006

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Deltafan said:
Sorry, the photos are not good
Are you serious? These are EXCELLENT considering you had to capture them from a video that may not itself have been of optimal quality!

Thanks a lot for sharing these beauties.
 

Jemiba

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As Skyblazer said: Excellent ! Many thanks !
Good stuff to work on. And the Pa.562 here shows a little bit
different lines, than the sketches we've seen before. The lineage
from the Magister is harder to see, I think.
 

Deltafan

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Well, I found an unknown link.

It's certainly from french author Pierre Gaillard and it comes obviously from his conference of 7th February 2015 in Issy les Moulineaux :

http://www.developpement-durable.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/Exposition_Nicolas_Roland_Payen_createur_d_avions_a_aile_delta_-_par_Pierre_Gaillard.pdf
For Postwar Aircraft Projects, there are :

-Pa.47 (1949)
-Pa.49 (1953/54)
-Pa.59 (1954)
-Pa.60/61B
-Pa.61F
 

walter

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Hello Hesham :)


Beautiful info on the Pa-47, thank you.
I hope that someone can confirm (or counterdict) following summary:
P.A.47 - designation for the Plénair-Aviation (Rémy Caucher) project, planned with a 50hp Zlin Persey engine.
Pa-47 (Pa-47/1 or Pa-47/01 or Pa-470 Plein Air: designation for the prototype (F-WFKY, later F-PFKY) as completed by Payen Aviation with 65hp Continental A65 engine and full span ailerons.
Pa-47/02 or Pa-472 Aéria: Project with modified wing (ailerons en vent) and tail wheel gear.
Pa-47/03 or Pa-473 Week-End: Project based on the Pa-47/-2, but now with a tricycle gear.
Was F-WFKY/F-PFKY ever modified to the Pa-47/02 standard and perhaps flown in that form 1950?.


What would be the proper term in English for "ailerons en vent"?


Best regards, Walter
 

Deltafan

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I am not Hesham, and I think that our best specialist for the Pa.47 is Jemiba ;)

A good part of the answer is definitely in Les ailes from 02/06/1951. The book is in the files of Le Musée de l'Air at Le Bourget Airport. I copied only 90% of the end of the article (the Pa.47 is not my favorite Payen...).

Well,

+In what I have of Les ailes (06.1951), The Pa.47, Pa.47/1, Pa.47/2 and Pa.47/3 are named Week End (1951 then). The only difference between the Pa.47/2 and Pa.47/3 is the gear.

+In Le Fana de l'Aviation (1969-70) Robert J. Roux, wrote that the Pa.47 was at first named Plein Air and later Week End. It was still surviving (1969-70 then) and the tricycle gear version Pa.47-3 was never produced.

+In Les avions français 1944-1964 (1990) Pierre Gaillard wrote : Pa.47 Plein Air, main flight 18/06/49. Became Week-End before the modification in Pa.47-1 with a different rigging (haubanage is the word used in the French text).

+In Le Fana de l'Aviation (1991-92) Francis Nicole wrote about the Pa.47 Aéria, and after about the flying capacities of the Pa.47/1 prototype. He wrote after again about two future projects named Week End : one with classical gear, the other with tricycle gear.

+In Le trait d'Union (1995), Pierre Gaillard wrote :
-1947 K71 Pa.47/01 Tourisme Two seats Aéria or Week End, flew as F-WFKY
-1947 K72 Pa.47/02 prototype of the preproduction Pa.47/01
-1947 K73 Pa.47/03 prototype with a tricycle gear of the Pa.47/01

+In Air Enthusiast (1997), Alain Pelletier wrote : Payen designed a conventional single-engine monoplane powered by a 65 hp Continental A65 in 1947. The so-called Pa.47 Plein Air (later renamed Week End) had a high straight wing spanning (...). This aeroplane, which first flew in June 1949 with test registration F-WFKY, was later converted as the Pa.47/1, then as the Pa.47/2 Aéria after its wing had been modified. A tricycle variant was considered (Pa.47/3) but never materialised.

+In his two books about the official flight tests (by the Centre d'essais en vol CEV) of the french airplanes 1945-60 (2001-2002), Jean-Claude Fayer named the Pa.47 Plein air F-WFKY. He wrote that the Pa.47 came in the CEV on the 11th October 1949 but because of lot of defects it did not fly and returned to the builder and came again in the CEV (in February according to Pierre Gaillard) to fly on the 7th March 1950.

+In Fast Facts (2007 ?) Ferdinand Käsmann wrote : Payen agreed to build a single Piper Cub look-alike designed before the war by one Remy Gaucher, as Pa.47 Plein Air. It first flew in 1949 and was later modified several times, becoming the Pa.471 Week End, the Pa.472 Aéria and the Pa.473 Week End, in turn.

+In 2013 in one of his last book (aviation in French Essonne Departement), Pierre Gaillard wrote : The Pa.47... had a restricted Certificate of Airworthiness (from CEV) in 1950, 5 productions planes were foreseen, but it was certificated only on 24/06/57

+In Le Musée de l'Air files there is two free pages from Roland Payen (I don't remember the year) with :
-Pa.470 Plein Air, later Week End, 06.1949, F-WFKY, design of Gaucher
-Pa.471 Week End, later Aéria, 06.1949, F-PFKY, modified Pa.470
-Pa.472 Aéria, 1957, F-PFKY, modified wing
-Pa.473 Week End, Pa.47 with tricycle gear



It's the best that i can make for you today...
 

Deltafan

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Shorter :

walter said:
P.A.47 - designation for the Plénair-Aviation (Rémy Caucher) project, planned with a 50hp Zlin Persey engine.
It's Remy Gaucher, and I don't know for the engine. Maybe explained in Les Ailes from 02/06/1951, which is available in the Library of the Musee de l'air in Le Bourget Airport http://www.museeairespace.fr/documentation/bibliotheque/

walter said:
Pa-47 (Pa-47/1 or Pa-47/01 or Pa-470 Plein Air: designation for the prototype (F-WFKY, later F-PFKY) as completed by Payen Aviation with 65hp Continental A65 engine and full span ailerons.
The first name was Plein Air, but it was renamed Week End between the end of 1949 and 1951. We are sure that it was Week End in 1951 (Les ailes)

walter said:
Pa-47/02 or Pa-472 Aéria: Project with modified wing (ailerons en vent) and tail wheel gear.
Yes. But The only difference between the 47/1 and the 47/2 is the wing. I suppose that the tail Wheel gear was already on the late 47/1. And i suppose that it's not "ailerons en vent", but "ailerons à fente" (Les Ailes).

walter said:
Pa-47/03 or Pa-473 Week-End: Project based on the Pa-47/-2, but now with a tricycle gear.
Yes

walter said:
Was F-WFKY/F-PFKY ever modified to the Pa-47/02 standard and perhaps flown in that form 1950?.
Yes, I suppose. Roland Payen wrote that it was finished in 1957, Pierre Gaillard wrote that it's the year when the Pa.47 was certificated, and Alain Pelletier wrote that the Pa.47/2 was materialised.

walter said:
What would be the proper term in English for "ailerons en vent"?
For "ailerons à fente" : "slotted ailerons"
http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1933/naca-report-422.pdf
 

Jemiba

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Deltafan said:
... our best specialist for the Pa.47 is Jemiba
That's too much honour, all I have about the Pa.47 are two drawings from Les Ailes
(the Pa.47.2 and .3, both called "Week-End" in that article) and a photo of the Pa.47
prototype F-PFKY, which served as basis for my drawing.
Apart from the landing gear, there seem to have been considerable differences in the
shape of the fuselage and tail surfaces. The later versions look more elegant, than
the first somewhat boxy prototype.
 

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walter

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Dear Deltafan, Dear Jemiba, :) :)
thank you very much for the detailed information on the Pa-47. Most of the questions (mine anyway) have been answered.
If you look at the drawings/photos you posted, you can indeed see the difference in aileron form and size. On the Pa-47 the aircraft has the full-span ailerons, while on the Pa-47/2 (and I guess on the Pa-47/3 also) the ailerons are much smaller and relocated to the outer wing parts.
Also thank you for explaining the ailerons en fente and I just noted the difference in the shape of the horizontal tailplane as well.
You made my day !!


One question/request. I have at least 100 other aircraft for which I would like to have such detailed history. Can I count on you? ::)
 

Jemiba

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Jemiba

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Jemiba said:
... and a photo of the Pa.47
Sorry for quoting myself and for my bad memory ! Took a while to remember, that there
actually was another and considerable better source: "Prototypes De L'Aviation Francaise
1945 - 1960" by Jean-Claude Fayer. :-\
 

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hesham

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From JAWA 1973,PA.71 and PA.149.
 

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Deltafan

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Thanks Hesham.


Is there texts with the two drawings ?


The Pa.149 drawing is the source for the drawing of the Minijets website. There is a text (in french) about this plane (this webpage is improved since a few time).

https://minijets.org/fr/150-a-300-kg/turbomeca-palas/projets/payen-pa-149/


For the Pa.71, this 3D drawing from JAWA is new, even if we know a drawing from Jemiba (see my avatar) ;)
 

hesham

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Yes my dear Deltafan,and here is a full text.
 

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Deltafan

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Thanks a lot Hesham, in particular for the Pa.149 :)

For the text, I am not sure that two Pa.149 were under construction in 1972 (Nothing about it from the french authors or from Payen Himself). AFAIK, surely a (-nother) project but no real building, as for a lot of Payen's projects, alas...
 

hesham

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Thank you for the Info my dear Deltafan.
 

Stargazer2006

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Excellent series of documents! Thanks.
 

Deltafan

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Thanks a lot for the new documents about the postwar Payen projects too, Hesham !
 

hesham

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Deltafan said:
Thanks a lot for the new documents about the postwar Payen projects too, Hesham !
Thank you my dear Deltafan,

and I hope we get many reports about him.
 

hesham

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From Ailes 3/1954,

here is a small Info about Pa.53 interceptor Project.
 

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Deltafan

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Thanks Hesham.

Alas, the Pa.53 remained at the project stage.
 
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